Trados discounts without a TM supplied
Thread poster: Anil Gidwani

Anil Gidwani  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 18:30
German to English
+ ...
Sep 9, 2008

I've always thought Trados discounts apply to source files IF a TM is supplied. Not so! (A search of the archives shows that this point was discussed once back in 2002, but I thought a fresh discussion would be useful)

A source document can of course contain internal repetitions. Now, it did not occur to me (as it perhaps should have) that running Trados->Analyze even with a BLANK TM would catch these internal repetitions! It has always seemed most natural to run the Trados Analyze function against a particular TM. Nor did it occur to me that a client would request a Trados discount when not supplying a TM!

Be that as it may, I have ambivalent feelings about giving discounts when no TM is supplied (assuming one gives TM based discounts at all). On the one hand, internal repetition does save some work. On the other hand, is the outsourcer entitled to a discount for internal repetitions even when not supplying a TM? If so, what discount is it entitled to?

If yes, my guess would be not more than 75% of the price.


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Jan Willem van Dormolen  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 15:00
English to Dutch
+ ...
There are no rules Sep 9, 2008

This is not a question as to what someone is "entitled to". No one is entitled to anything in this free market. If you don't want to give discounts for reps, then don't. If you do, it's up to you to arrange a discount percentage with your client, whatever way you see fit.

And of course Trados catches internal matches - that's what Trados is about: catching matches. I've had docs with up to 80% internal repetition, and Trados saved me huge amounts of time (and boredom!).


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Heinrich Pesch  Identity Verified
Finland
Local time: 16:00
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
+ ...
Keep the customer happy Sep 9, 2008

If they want a discount, agree but rise your wordrate accordingly. So both parties will be happy.
Its true that repetitions save time, but not 100%. If there is a mistake in the first occurence or you change the terminology some point later you have to scan all occurences, perhaps in several documents. And if you outsource spellingchecking you have to pay fully for the reps.
Its a different case in SDLX, where the tool will change automatically all later occurences of the first segment when doing corrections.
But interestingly customers who use SDLX or Transit never ask for discounts! The reason is the Trados marketing slogan Never translate the same sentence twice.

Regards
Heinrich


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Jan Sundström  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 15:00
English to Swedish
+ ...
it's an open market Sep 9, 2008

Anil Gidwani wrote:
A source document can of course contain internal repetitions. Now, it did not occur to me (as it perhaps should have) that running Trados->Analyze even with a BLANK TM would catch these internal repetitions! It has always seemed most natural to run the Trados Analyze function against a particular TM. Nor did it occur to me that a client would request a Trados discount when not supplying a TM!

Be that as it may, I have ambivalent feelings about giving discounts when no TM is supplied (assuming one gives TM based discounts at all). On the one hand, internal repetition does save some work. On the other hand, is the outsourcer entitled to a discount for internal repetitions even when not supplying a TM?


Of course it makes sense to offer a discount for internal repeptitions.

Whether the customer provides a TM or not is besides the point, the internal repetitions are there anyway.
If the customer wants to state his ground, he can create an empty TM, add just one segment, and send it to you, claiming that "since you now have a TM, we have to go with the discounts". You see that there's no logic in this argument...

Like Jan and Heinrich put it, at the end of the day, it's an open market. If you feel that your prices are competitive as they are, by all means, stick to full word price. But if you have a hunch that your competitors do offer this discount, you should consider staying "on the edge" and discount internal repetitions too...


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Ivana Friis Wilson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:00
Member (2008)
English to Danish
+ ...
Ridiculous Sep 9, 2008

Think about it: Why should you give a discount because you use the most expensive CAT tool available? It should be the opposite!

I would never work for such an agency. Because it is a free world.


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bohy  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 15:00
English to French
+ ...
Repetitions and 100% matches are not the same Sep 9, 2008

When a customer provides a TM, he expects you to provide discounts for 100% matches and fuzzy matches with his TM.
He may also expect discounts for repetitions, which are repetitions inside the text, NOT comparing with the TM.
If he does not provide a TM, he may only ask for a discount on repetitions (they are not done for free, though)... and only if he requires you to use a CAT tool. Of course, in this case you can compensate the requirement for this overly expensive software by asking for a higher rate...
You may of course accept or reject this job, you may also indicate what is YOUR rate for repetitions (they are not free, indeed - agencies tend to offer 10% of the full rate, I usually ask nearly 20%)


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Jan Sundström  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 15:00
English to Swedish
+ ...
Not logical... Sep 10, 2008

Ivana Friis Wilson wrote:

Think about it: Why should you give a discount because you use the most expensive CAT tool available? It should be the opposite!


Ivana, you got to rethink your logic.

The fact that the source text contains internal repetitions has nothing to do with the CAT tool you choose to work with.

There are plenty of freeware or low-cost tools that support internal repetitions, and specify them in the log.
For many clients, the actual tool you use doesn't matter. Other prozians have used Wordfast for years, without the client even noticing...

/J


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Anil Gidwani  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 18:30
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Middle ground? Sep 10, 2008

J-a-n S-ndstr-m wrote:

Of course it makes sense to offer a discount for internal repetitions.

Whether the customer provides a TM or not is besides the point, the internal repetitions are there anyway.
If the customer wants to state his ground, he can create an empty TM, add just one segment, and send it to you, claiming that "since you now have a TM, we have to go with the discounts". You see that there's no logic in this argument...



Hmmm... J-a-n, I'm not so sure... We're talking about real TMs from a client qualifying for discounts, not a dummy TM with one segment.

Many of our colleagues do not offer discounts at all, even for matches. Their logic is if they've invested in the software, they should reap the benefits of any time savings. On the other hand, many of us do offer discounts for matches, preferring to pass on perceived savings from reusing TM segments to the client.

Internal repetitions seem to offer some kind of middle ground. The way I see it, if a translator spots internal repetitions in a brand new document, that's because the translator has invested in a tool that catches these repetitions, and the translator is therefore entitled to the savings. What if the translator was not using Trados and some other tool caught the repetitions (as you yourself correctly pointed out, the fact that the source text contains internal repetitions has nothing to do with the CAT tool you choose to work with). Or perhaps the translator did not use any tools but simply spotted the repetitions.

On the other hand, if a translator uses a TM supplied by the client, or translates a subsequent document from the same client off a TM generated and maintained for that client, offering discounts is justifiable.

The issue of internal repetitions can become quite important in larger documents, running to perhaps 10% of the total document volume, so I don't think this necessarily qualifies as quibbling.


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 15:00
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Internal repetitions have always been there Sep 10, 2008

Anil Gidwani wrote:
Be that as it may, I have ambivalent feelings about giving discounts when no TM is supplied (assuming one gives TM based discounts at all).


Whether a TM is supplied or not, the internal repetition count is always present in the analysis. Do an analysis against a TM, and you'll notice one item called "repetitions" and another item called "100%". The first one refers to internal repetitions, and the second one refers to 100% matches from the TM.

So if you've accepted Trados discounts in the past, then you have already accepted internal repetitions in the past.

[Edited at 2008-09-10 18:05]


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Daniel García
English to Spanish
+ ...
You don't have to give discounts for repetitions but... Sep 10, 2008

When we talk about internal repetitions, I always think of the story of the painters.

You have to paint your apartment. You have 100 square meters to paint.

You get three quotes:

Painter a). He can paint 10 sqm per hour. The job will take him 10 hours, and he charges 3 euro per square meter. Total: 300 euro.

Painter b). He has bought a painting machine and he can paint 50 sqm per hour. Still, he charges the same as painter A, no discounts. 300 euro for two hours of work.

Painter C) Has the same machine. He offers a "discount" for increased productivity and he charges 1 euro per square meter. Total 100 euros for two hours. He is making 50 euro per hour.

So, what I mean is not that you "have to" offer CAT discounts.

What I mean is that you have to work out your business model, decide how much you want to earn per hour and calculate your rates accordingly, independently of whether you give "discounts" no.

You can use repetitions for your advantage to place yourself in a more competitive position while at the same time profiting from CAT tools.

Historically, end customers tend to benefit from productivity increases due to competition.

Daniel


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Jan Sundström  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 15:00
English to Swedish
+ ...
Keep the questions apart Sep 11, 2008

Anil Gidwani wrote:
J-a-n S-ndstr-m wrote:
Of course it makes sense to offer a discount for internal repetitions.
Whether the customer provides a TM or not is besides the point, the internal repetitions are there anyway.


Hmmm... J-a-n, I'm not so sure... We're talking about real TMs from a client qualifying for discounts, not a dummy TM with one segment.


Nope. That's not what this thread was about in the first place. The question was whether it makes sense to offer a discount for internal repetitions.

Whether an existing TM (providing fuzzies and 100%) merit a discount is a totally different discussion. Let's keep these issues apart.


Internal repetitions seem to offer some kind of middle ground. The way I see it, if a translator spots internal repetitions in a brand new document, that's because the translator has invested in a tool that catches these repetitions, and the translator is therefore entitled to the savings.


These days, most agencies use CAT tools to make an analysis before sending out jobs anyway, so your assumption is moot.

If you work for an agency or end client that doesn't use CAT tools and is totally oblivious about the fact that you can save time and money by reusing segments - by all means, go ahead and charge them through their nose!

At the end of the day, it all boils down to your total price per job. If your pricing isn't competitive, the client will find out sooner or later, and opt for another provider with better value.

Daniel's exercise is common sense.
Sure, you can decide not to offer any rebates, but then you will have to set your price per word accordingly, to stay competitive.

Translator 1 has a word price of 0,10 EUR, no discounts. He translates a file with 1000 new words and 100 repetitions. Total price: 110 EUR
Translator 2 has a word price of 0,10 EUR, 50% discount for internal repetitions. He translates the same file. Total price: 105 EUR

Assuming that both translators have the same tool and same skills, T1 would have to lower his word price to 0,095 EUR to be perceived as a viable alternative in the eyes of the client.

That's the invisible hand of the market, simply.

Most clients are not stupid either. If a client has a job with many internal repetitions, surely he won't send it to a translator that won't offer discounts, unless that translator's base word price is lower (all other factors equal).

As Daniel also said, it's your call to figure out a business model that is attractive, and yet recoup your investments. To each and one his own...

[Edited at 2008-09-11 11:13]

[Edited at 2008-09-11 11:14]


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MariusV  Identity Verified
Lithuania
Local time: 16:00
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
my two cents Sep 11, 2008

Sorry, guys, as I did not read the thread in a detail. But sometimes it is even better when the client does not provide the TM accumulated from previous translations because you never can know what level/quality that "previous translation TM" can be as this thing usually turns out when you start your real work - discounts agreed, deadlines agreed, all the rest agreed, and you cannot use most of the TM as it is unusable. And those close fuzzy matches can turn into a nightmare (a full re-translation)...

Now to Anil's issue - I think that Trados discounts are normal. Imagine some IT text of 1000 words with 200 words "open", 100 words "close", 300 words "enter", 50 words "delete"...and the rest is something like a no match text. All in all, with Trados discount you'd get some 50 USD in total compared to the usual 100 USD without Trados, BUT you will do the work 2 times faster. Let alone, if the client puts Trados as a requirement for the project. + Trados ensures consistency.





[Edited at 2008-09-11 22:54]


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