| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Is it normal for agencies to pay by the reduced source word? Thread poster: Astrid Elke Witte
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I'm glad you are finally aware of CAT word counts, Elke.
Saying "weighted" from the very beginning could have avoided a lot of guessing.
| | | | Astrid Elke Witte 
Germany
Local time: 18:51
Member (2002)
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER | No, it was not mentioned in advance | Oct 20, 2008 |
Janet Rubin wrote:
That having been said, I meant to add to my post that this should actually be determined, explained, established, affirmed [insert appropriate word here] *in advance*.
In other words, if a project manager failed to disclose to me in our negotiations regarding a job that the word count was to be adjusted/discounted on the PO and/or invoicing procedures and this popped up as a "surprise" to me, I would definitely not accept it. If I were somehow forced to accept it, that would probably be the end of my collaboration with that agency (unless they could point out to my satisfaction that I missed something along the way).
Of course, when it's all arranged and cleared in advance, there is little or no need for a detailed explanation on the PO itself.
I was sent three Word documents and told that they were XXX number of words, and that I would get XXX per word, which was apparently a special generous weekend rate. I agreed to the arrangement, because I had no idea that that was not the true number of words in the documents. I did not think of counting them at the time before accepting the job, because it simply did not occur to me that it was a reduced word count of some kind, and that the real word count was higher.
| | | | | On weighting | Oct 20, 2008 |
But you DO spend less time on repetitions. The same is not always true about 100% matches (their TM could be crap! don't ever charge less for matches than you do for editing) or fuzzy matches (that depends on subject matter and whether your language has inflections).
So, depending on the weights used, the weighted total could be a very accurate indicator of the time needed to complete the task. Or it could not. Try to compute the weights that are fair for you, and make sure you don'... See more But you DO spend less time on repetitions. The same is not always true about 100% matches (their TM could be crap! don't ever charge less for matches than you do for editing) or fuzzy matches (that depends on subject matter and whether your language has inflections).
So, depending on the weights used, the weighted total could be a very accurate indicator of the time needed to complete the task. Or it could not. Try to compute the weights that are fair for you, and make sure you don't settle for less!
[Edited at 2008-10-20 21:03] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's all up to you | Oct 20, 2008 |
Astrid Elke Johnson wrote:
... because I had no idea that that was not the true number of words in the documents.
That could indicate one of two (well, three) things:
1) This agency is not acting "above board" in its dealings with you - the number one motivation for me (personally) to end the collaboration.
2) The agency is so used to working this way, it assumed you were as well - however, failing to disclose all of the terms of the job is negligence, and another potential reason to end the collaboration.
3) It could be possible (although I'm not suggesting it is in this case) that because you weren't familiar with the terminology or expectations, you missed something along the way that indicated this reduction/weighting. [will class this for the sake of argument as "extremely unlikely"]
...I did not think of counting them at the time before accepting the job...
Now you know. As it happens (maybe through sheer cynicism or sheer obstinacy on my part), I always check word count, line count, Trados count, in essence *any* count an agency (or client) decides to throw at me, and even more so when they don't.
It's a CYA world.
As you can infer from my previous post, in a similar situation - were I surprised in such a way, I might choose to take a rather... assertive stance.
But it's all up to you.
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Astrid Elke Witte
Germany
Local time: 18:51
Member (2002)
German to English
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TOPIC STARTER | I don't recall there being any repetitions | Oct 20, 2008 |
Mikhail Kropotov wrote:
But you DO spend less time on repetitions. The same is not always true about 100% matches (their TM could be crap! don't ever charge less for matches than you do for editing) or fuzzy matches (that depends on subject matter and whether your language has inflections).
So, depending on the weights used, the weighted total could be a very accurate indicator of the time needed to complete the task. Or it could not. Try to compute the weights that are fair for you, and make sure you don't settle for less!
[Edited at 2008-10-20 21:03]
I only recall there being some very troublesome and time-consuming passages, and a greater number of them than is normal.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 18:51
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| What we say and what we mean | Oct 21, 2008 |
Astrid Elke Johnson wrote: Janet Rubin wrote:
That having been said, I meant to add to my post that this should actually be determined, explained, established, affirmed [insert appropriate word here] *in advance*. I was sent three Word documents and told that they were XXX number of words, and that I would get XXX per word, which was apparently a special generous weekend rate.
Yes, but what was written on the purchase order itself?
It is quite possible that the PM used the term "words" and not "WWC", not because of an oversight but simply because we tend to speak generally, in context, even if what we say have a more specific meaning.
For example, you may quote per "word" but if your word counting software counts numbers as words, even if they are not written in full, then you're also guilty of using a term in a meaning that is different from its general, standard meaning.
| | | | | First ask the PM? | Oct 22, 2008 |
I must admit that the mistrust towards agencies in this post makes me sad.
I've called Astrid and clarified the matter, and I'm very much looking forward to our next DE-EN job to continue our cooperation.
But what surprised me in the replies here, and what's still bothering me: why doesn't anyone suggest to ask the PM for clarification? Or to let the PM know that the text turned out to have some rather challenging passages?
Just to let you all know what w... See more I must admit that the mistrust towards agencies in this post makes me sad.
I've called Astrid and clarified the matter, and I'm very much looking forward to our next DE-EN job to continue our cooperation.
But what surprised me in the replies here, and what's still bothering me: why doesn't anyone suggest to ask the PM for clarification? Or to let the PM know that the text turned out to have some rather challenging passages?
Just to let you all know what went on... Our initial cooperation proposal read as follows:
***
Here's what you can expect from us:
- prepped files: no hard returns, no crappy OCRs - properly prepped and ready to go, if necessary with the original pdf as reference. In case there's a problem on our end for whatever reason (maybe I'm not in, and my colleague doesn't trust herself with the German legalese), we'll ask you whether you would mind helping us out there - and remunerate you for your time, of course.
- reasonable deadlines
- only jobs that suit you - if you're not into marketing, I won't waste my and your time by trying to talk you into it anyway. Legal it is.
Judging from the jobs we got in over the last year, think mostly contracts of various types, and the occasional quarrel correspondence
- rush or weekend rates in case of unreasonable deadlines
- adapted rate and deadline in case the subject matter is likely to slow down your translation pace because it'll require extra research (e.g. if it's highly legal stuff for a client who's into a quircky niche market with its own terminology)
- quick query answers, Trados help if necessary
- decent TMs
- feedback (and not just when you've let slip a typo in that impossible all night job, but also of the positive kind)
- and, if you're the type who likes a personal note now and then, simply a professional, but also fun cooperation. If you prefer to stay businesslike, that's fine as well of course: we're flexible
In short, we try and work in a way that allows our translators to concentrate on translating, aiming at having you work *with* us rather than just *for* us.
What we expect though:
- that you're wiling to negotiate a fixed rate for legal DE-EN translations that come in a Trados-friendly format.
- that you'll deliver uncleaned, allowing us to keep up our TMs and allowing your proofreader (considering your subjects: in most cases that's me) to finish her day without a headache
- that you're willing to work with our Trados discount scheme: reps/100% matches weighted @ 25%, 85-99% matches at 50%, 0-84% at 100%.
***
Astrid explained to me that she was more used to line-rates. My reply:
***
"I'm aware of the German system, and of the German love for compounding (which German shares with Dutch, my mother tongue). However, I make about 10-12 price calculations per day bases on the "Dutch" system, which cost me about 2 minutes each - whereas getting the German system straight in my head takes me some 15 minutes at least, simply for lack of routine. I would prefer to spend that time on more fun stuff (e.g. helping someone with terminology research on something I never even knew existed), as you can probably imagine.
So, here's my proposal:
Calculation per weighted source word, at 0,XX EUR p/sw initally as a "standard rate" - so, that's for a properly prepped file with simple straightforward legal content, on a reasonable deadline.
Then, I simply say we'll compare what payment would have been with your regular scheme, and how far apart we are. If that's a huge difference to your advantage, that's your luck, if it's to your disadvantage we'll see if we can adapt the rate for the next job, and see whether that works out better. Provided, of course, that we're happy with your work. It'll give both of us some extra work initially, trying to find out whether our system of calculation & payment would work out ok for you, but in the end it should make things easier on both of us - for us, because we'll be able to stick to our own system, and for you, because you'll know exactly what you'll get if you see a job arriving in your inbox from one of us."
***
And this is what we agreed to.
So, the wordcount was not arbitrarily decided, but based on a Trados analysis - with indeed hardly any repetitions and no fuzzies. I suspect (but correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know the tool) that Practicount includes numbers in its count, which Trados doesn't. Astrid explained to me that she wasn't aware of the difference between the two systems, and that she'd simply ran everything through Practicount on routine. Everything's solved as far as I'm concerned.
Underlying message: it's a CYA world only if you let it be. A more positive outlook on working with agencies can make your job (and mine as well) a lot more fun. ▲ Collapse
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Susan van den Ende wrote:
I must admit that the mistrust towards agencies in this post makes me sad....
A more positive outlook on working with agencies can make your job (and mine as well) a lot more fun.
Perhaps I missed something, but I didn't think Astrid actually asked for suggestions on what to do (contact the PM - I think we assumed she would do that anyway), but rather what can be viewed as "normal business practice".
You state, I think rightly, that there is a lot of mistrust* among translators - but have you considered the reasons for this?
This mistrust and (negative) "outlook" doesn't emerge out of thin air, it comes from unfortunate experience - once bitten, twice shy.
Common wisdom states that trust has to be earned, and once lost, is difficult if not impossible to win back.
It sounds as if you offer some very valuable services in your collaboration with translators. And I'm sure that these along with your professionalism and consideration are highly prized by those you work with.
But sadly, that doesn't mean that this is the standard (i.e. that "normal business practice" reflects this). It is simply difficult to have a "positive outlook" once having learned - through experience - that some agencies out there are really only looking out for their bottom line.
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*I, myself, have had several positive experiences with agencies, so I feel my level of mistrust is down around "reasonable precaution"
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Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 19:51
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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| Just about the technical side | Oct 22, 2008 |
As it seems Astrid believes she cannot do the analysis with her software, I'd like to point out that Analyse-function is part of Trados Workbench.
In Workbench select the appropriate tm for the job.
Got to Tools-menu and select Analyse.
Click on Add and navigate to the folder with the files to be translated (use *.* if you have files of different kind).
Click on Analyse-button and wait, till WB has finnished. The result is displayed. Now you can go to LogFile and v... See more As it seems Astrid believes she cannot do the analysis with her software, I'd like to point out that Analyse-function is part of Trados Workbench.
In Workbench select the appropriate tm for the job.
Got to Tools-menu and select Analyse.
Click on Add and navigate to the folder with the files to be translated (use *.* if you have files of different kind).
Click on Analyse-button and wait, till WB has finnished. The result is displayed. Now you can go to LogFile and view the analysis results for every file and the total. You might save a copy in you folder.
After that, if there are lots of repetitions and 100% matches, I usually go to the box at the lower right and change it to "99 % or lower match value" and press "Export Unknown segments". In the box that opens I save the file as rtf. Done.
You might translate this file with the unknown segments either in Word or in Tageditor. After translating and proofreading make sure that all changes are updated in the TM.
Then load the original files either in Word or TE, press Alt+Home and Alt+Keyboard* for Translate to fuzzy. If all went well you have translated each file in a few seconds. Save the files and pack them in a zip-file which you send to the PM. Wright you invoice.
I use this procedures with tms which are trustworthy, that means they are built from my previous, spellchecked translations.
You could save the files also as pdf or as Word-format and check that everything looks fine. Mostly the PM sends me the final versions in pdf for a last checkup before the go to print, but that of course does not apply for legal correspondence.
Using this method you make sure that also you save time using Trados, not only the agency or the customer.
In legal texts there will be only few repetitions or fuzzy matches, I guess. Then you can as well translate the original documents in the normal way.
Regards
Heinrich ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Sounds like an honest misunderstanding | Oct 22, 2008 |
It's good to hear that everything is apparently cleared up. I neither know nor care what the actual relevant rate is, but the general terms of the contract appear reasonable to me. Now that Astrid is aware of the weighted word concept there shouldn't be any more confusion.
Susan, as far as dealing with equivalencies between German line calculations and your more familiar rates, you might want to have a look at my equivalency calculator (an Excel spreadsheet) on the "how to" tab of m... See more It's good to hear that everything is apparently cleared up. I neither know nor care what the actual relevant rate is, but the general terms of the contract appear reasonable to me. Now that Astrid is aware of the weighted word concept there shouldn't be any more confusion.
Susan, as far as dealing with equivalencies between German line calculations and your more familiar rates, you might want to have a look at my equivalency calculator (an Excel spreadsheet) on the "how to" tab of my profile. I originally wrote it for a Dutch client who was going nuts with the same issue when German end customers started asking for line rate quotations. I think Astrid already has this tool. Several people have already suggested incorporating a "weighted word count" into another spreadsheet there. Sounds like a good idea for dealing with misunderstandings like this and simplifying verification.
However, I personally object to Trados word counts which exclude numbers and dates. As you surely know, these are written differently in German and English and must be adapted accordingly. Thus they are a legitimate part of the word count for a job or must be compensated in another way. Perhaps you do this as an hourly post-editing charge or handle it yourself properly, in which case it probably isn't an issue. (However, numbering will be: "1. Instanz" and the like!) I am generally very reluctant to leave such things to agencies or end customers, because so many of them get it wrong.
****
Addendum: it's done. The "target price defense tool" & "Zielpreisverteidigungstool" have had the "weighted word count" added to the calculated statistics. The downloads of the Excel spreadsheets are available off the "How To" tab of my profile.
[Edited at 2008-10-23 06:24] ▲ Collapse
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