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Is the financial crisis a credible excuse for delaying payment?
Thread poster: Clémentine Choubrac
Kevin Lossner
Kevin Lossner  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 13:43
German to English
+ ...
Going on holidays? Oct 21, 2008

This reminds me a lot of an infamous agency in Austria and Switzerland where the owner always had time and money to take ski holidays & the like but never to pay his translators. He used to tell my partner about those holidays in the same phone calls where he made excuses for delaying payment. The amazing part is that people are still stupid enough to work for guys like that when their history is so well documented.

Your buddy in Belgium is likely a much smaller fish and might even
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This reminds me a lot of an infamous agency in Austria and Switzerland where the owner always had time and money to take ski holidays & the like but never to pay his translators. He used to tell my partner about those holidays in the same phone calls where he made excuses for delaying payment. The amazing part is that people are still stupid enough to work for guys like that when their history is so well documented.

Your buddy in Belgium is likely a much smaller fish and might even have had less than wicked intentions before he got in trouble. No matter. He needs to read up on the legal definition of blackmail. I would post a Blue Board notice immediately (and no - I wouldn't offer to do more than amend the note to say you were paid if it ever happens). Then I would contact (Belgian) collection agencies and find one that will put all the extra charges on him. Get out the instruments of torture and use them without remorse. If he wants to play the agency game, then he had better learn to manage his capital. No excuses at all. Anyone who wants to outsource needs to be very aware of contractual responsibilities to pay suppliers regardless of what happens with end clients, banks or anything else.
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Clémentine Choubrac
Clémentine Choubrac  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:43
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER
Outsourcer's responsability Oct 21, 2008

Kevin Lossner wrote:
If he wants to play the agency game, then he had better learn to manage his capital. No excuses at all. Anyone who wants to outsource needs to be very aware of contractual responsibilities to pay suppliers regardless of what happens with end clients, banks or anything else.


Thank you so much for saying that because I feel like I am the one at fault here for demanding to be paid !


 
Ramon Inglada
Ramon Inglada  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:43
English to Spanish
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I agree, no excuses Oct 21, 2008

Hi Clémentine,

I agree with Kevin. No more excuses are acceptable. The only acceptable outcome is immediate payment, that's all. As Kevin very well put it, he should have been aware of his responsibilities when outsourcing the work to you.

You are running a business, not a charity organisation. From my point of view, this is very simple: you fulfilled your part of the contract and he didn't. If I were in your situation, I would take action immediately. Actually, I woul
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Hi Clémentine,

I agree with Kevin. No more excuses are acceptable. The only acceptable outcome is immediate payment, that's all. As Kevin very well put it, he should have been aware of his responsibilities when outsourcing the work to you.

You are running a business, not a charity organisation. From my point of view, this is very simple: you fulfilled your part of the contract and he didn't. If I were in your situation, I would take action immediately. Actually, I would have probably taken action when he told you he wasn't paying you because he was on holidays and the client hadn't paid him. Excuse me? Is he serious? The fact that he was on holidays has nothing to do with not paying you. He received your invoice before going on holidays and saw (and presumably agreed to) the payment due date. Also, as has already been discussed many times, the business agreement was established between you and him, not between you and the end client. The excuse of the client not paying is not a valid one. He had to assume the risk of the end client not paying when he outsourced the work to you.

In short: you are running a business. Don't be scared to simply ask for what's yours, for the money you've earned with your work.

Cheers,

Ramon
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John Rawlins
John Rawlins  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 14:43
Spanish to English
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A useful tactic Oct 21, 2008

If you believe that a client does have real problems paying your account, then try the following simple tactic.

Ask him how much he can pay now - and when can he settle the balance. If he is sincere and in real difficulties he will probably make an offer. But if he is unwilling to pay even 100 euros now - then you know where you stand. Any lingering sense of pity will have evaporated.

Time to reach into the box bring out the heavy gear!


 
Mervyn Henderson (X)
Mervyn Henderson (X)  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 14:43
Spanish to English
+ ...
Skiing Oct 21, 2008

Hi Clémentine,

The very reason he is skiing is because he isn't bothering himself with trivialities such as paying people. It is, after all, understandable - down through the years I have found the same problem myself, i.e. that paying people for services rendered gets in the way of me being able to do what I like.

Why does this "crisis" thang surprise us? It should surprise us more that major banks do not offer any money to people who don't bank with them when they ma
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Hi Clémentine,

The very reason he is skiing is because he isn't bothering himself with trivialities such as paying people. It is, after all, understandable - down through the years I have found the same problem myself, i.e. that paying people for services rendered gets in the way of me being able to do what I like.

Why does this "crisis" thang surprise us? It should surprise us more that major banks do not offer any money to people who don't bank with them when they make a profit, but when they make a loss, public funds (your, my, her, his and their funds, regardless of whether we bank with them or not) are used to bail them out. As I've inferred on various posts in the past, I'm not condemning it. No, no. What I want to know is how to do it myself, how to get a piece of the action. I'm working on it, between translations and the next episode of LT quite soon.

P.S. Is it only me that sees a laugh in the surname of one J-C Trichet, Pres. of the European Central Bank and ex-Banque de France, acquitted on fraud charges just before he got Le Big Boulot?

Mervyn
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Marie-Hélène Hayles
Marie-Hélène Hayles  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:43
Italian to English
+ ...
Blue Board Oct 21, 2008

As no moderator has picked up on this yet, I'm taking it on myself to point out something that is explicitly stated in the Blue Board rules but I've seen ignored (perhaps literally due to ignorance of the rules) time and again in the forums:

The Blue Board may not be used to threaten outsourcers.... See more
As no moderator has picked up on this yet, I'm taking it on myself to point out something that is explicitly stated in the Blue Board rules but I've seen ignored (perhaps literally due to ignorance of the rules) time and again in the forums:

The Blue Board may not be used to threaten outsourcers.

http://www.proz.com/faq/blue_board_agency#blueboard_clientreview


That's not to say I don't sympathise with you, Clémentine - you have a right to be paid. But using the Blue Board as a threat is not the way to go about it.


[Edited at 2008-10-21 17:48]
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Clémentine Choubrac
Clémentine Choubrac  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:43
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Sorry! Oct 21, 2008

Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:

As no moderator has picked up on this yet, I'm taking it on myself to point out something that is explicitly stated in the Blue Board rules but I've seen ignored (perhaps literally due to ignorance of the rules) time and again in the forums:

The Blue Board may not be used to threaten outsourcers.

http://www.proz.com/faq/blue_board_agency#blueboard_clientreview


That's not to say I don't sympathise with you, Clémentine - you have a right to be paid. But using the Blue Board as a threat is not the way to go about it.


[Edited at 2008-10-21 17:48]


I'm very sorry, I should have read the rules about the BlueBoard notice when this was first suggested.

I think that the tactic suggested by John Rawlins is exactly what I need, because I want to know if this guy is bona fide or just using this as an excuse not to pay me.

Again, thank you all for your support.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 14:43
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Not sure about that rule... Oct 21, 2008

Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
I'm taking it on myself to point out something that is explicitly stated in the Blue Board rules but I've seen ignored:

The Blue Board may not be used to threaten outsourcers.
http://www.proz.com/faq/blue_board_agency#blueboard_clientreview


I have three comments.

1. That sentence is part of a larger paragraph, namely:

If you have worked on a project with a client but were late or otherwise negligent in delivering work, you may not make an entry for that client. The Blue Board may not be used to threaten outsourcers.

Do you not think that the sentence should be read in that context?

2. Saying "I will write a negative comment about you on the Blue Board unless you do this or that" is not "using the Blue Board to threaten". The way I read it, what that rule means is that you may not use the Blue Board itself as a vehicle for your threat. I certain do not think it means that you may not say to a client "I was going to make a negative comment on the Blue Board, but I'll hold off for a while".

3. Even if the rule means that you're not allowed to threaten a client with the Blue Board (instaead of "on the Blue Board"), I still think that the context must be taken into account. The context of the rule is using the Blue Board to gain additional advantage than what was originally agreed to. For example, a translator does a poor job and the client refuses to pay the full sum, he can't use the Blue Board for leverage.

This last item is confirmed by the previouis paragraph that reads "You may only make entries for clients with whom you have worked on a project and to whom you have delivered work on time and without complaints related to quality" (emphasis mine).

Can we get a comment from staff?


 
Charlie Bavington
Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:43
French to English
Instalments Oct 21, 2008

John Rawlins wrote:
Ask him how much he can pay now - and when can he settle the balance. If he is sincere and in real difficulties he will probably make an offer. But if he is unwilling to pay even 100 euros now - then you know where you stand.


I thnk that sounds reasonable.
Just make sure that there are no sneaky conditions attached to any part payment, that might imply that the part payment equates to full and final settlement or anything similar. A bald statement such as "here's x as part payment, I still owe you y" should do the trick.


My understanding too is that the BB shouldn't be used as a tactic or condition "if you do/don't do xxxx, then I will/won't make a BB entry".

On the other hand, I guess that the chances that Clemantine will work with this person again are slim to nil. And that is what it measures, is it not? Willingness to work again. Simple statement of fact. "I am (or am not) prepared to work with X again despite (because of) late/non-payment." (delete as applicable). If you don't even mention it to him, it can't be taken as a threat.


 
Kevin Lossner
Kevin Lossner  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 13:43
German to English
+ ...
Your reprimand is out of line Oct 21, 2008

Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
As no moderator has picked up on this yet, I'm taking it on myself to point out something that is explicitly stated in the Blue Board rules ...

The Blue Board may not be used to threaten outsourcers.

That's not to say I don't sympathise with you, Clémentine - you have a right to be paid. But using the Blue Board as a threat is not the way to go about it.


Samuel is right on this one - go back and read the rules yourself. Assuming this job was delivered on time with no quality issues, she has a perfect right to use the BB as a bludgeon. In fact, she has been far too kind so far.

After those silly excuses, I would simply have posted a truthful note about the problem on the BB and sent him the URL, telling him that the entry can get an update to reflect the payment status. But would I upgrade this jackass from a rating of 1 to anything else? Probably not. Why would you ever want to work again with an outsourcer who is careless and probably dishonest?

And I would hit Google hard and go looking for a Belgian collection agency. It's probably been a while since this outsourcer has been to church, so it's time to reacquaint him with the fear of God.

It's not that I am completely without sympathy when an outsourcer runs into trouble, and I have been known to wait patiently on a few occasions when the unexpected happens, like a manic husband clears out a bank account or a major client fails to pay a 30,000 euro bill and the payroll is in danger. But we aren't talking about any scenario worthy of understanding here - the failure to communicate tells me most of what I need to know. If the information presented is complete and correct, then it really is time to take out the instruments of persuasion and let this wannabe outsourcer know that there is a little more to doing business. Ralf and others consistently point out the importance of these contractual responsibilities and the need to be liquid to cover your obligations, and anyone who thinks of outsourcing for any reason needs to pay very careful attention to that advice. It is so fundamental that I am shocked at the need for its repetition, but then as a friend of mine once wrote in a song, "there ain't no such thing as original sin." Human stupidity is an endless repetitive loop.

[Edited at 2008-10-21 18:32]


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 14:43
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Don't threaten then: post it now Oct 21, 2008

Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
The Blue Board may not be used to threaten outsourcers.


Ok. Then post the negative comment now Clémentine.


 
Yolanda Broad
Yolanda Broad  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:43
Member (2000)
French to English
+ ...

MODERATOR
Relevant rule: The Blue Board may not be used to coerce Oct 21, 2008

I think folks have been looking at the wrong rule.

Here's the one you need to consider:

The Blue Board may not be used to coerce. Using the Blue Board, or threatening to use the Blue Board, in such a way as to pressure an outsourcer or service provider into taking some action, is strictly prohibited.
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I think folks have been looking at the wrong rule.

Here's the one you need to consider:

The Blue Board may not be used to coerce. Using the Blue Board, or threatening to use the Blue Board, in such a way as to pressure an outsourcer or service provider into taking some action, is strictly prohibited.

http://www.proz.com/siterules/blue_board_bb_blueboard/9#9
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Enrique Cavalitto
Enrique Cavalitto  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 10:43
Member (2006)
English to Spanish
Marie-Hélène is right Oct 21, 2008

Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:

As no moderator has picked up on this yet, I'm taking it on myself to point out something that is explicitly stated in the Blue Board rules but I've seen ignored (perhaps literally due to ignorance of the rules) time and again in the forums:

The Blue Board may not be used to threaten outsourcers.

http://www.proz.com/faq/blue_board_agency#blueboard_clientreview


That's not to say I don't sympathise with you, Clémentine - you have a right to be paid. But using the Blue Board as a threat is not the way to go about it.


Marie-Hélène is right here.

Blue Board rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/blue_board_bb_blueboard/9#9 states:

    The Blue Board may not be used to coerce. Using the Blue Board, or threatening to use the Blue Board, in such a way as to pressure an outsourcer or service provider into taking some action, is strictly prohibited.


Regards,
Enrique


 
Kevin Lossner
Kevin Lossner  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 13:43
German to English
+ ...
OK, then drop the bomb now! Oct 21, 2008

Enrique wrote:
Marie-Hélène is right here.


Fine, then forget the threats and stick to promises. Post an honest note about the bum now on the BB and promise to say he paid after he actually does so. Sick a collection agency on him if you don't see all the money or at least a partial payment very, very soon. Post his info in every payment practices list you can find. Forward copies to him if you like.

I presume it is not allowed to refuse to pay because of a negative BB rating. So then we can expect the Moral Majority to take appropriate actions against the deadbeat if he does make such a suggestion.

Personally I find the idea that one cannot suggest to a thief that a negative rating may be in order if he does not mend his ways is very silly. This encourages such abuses. But fine - in cases like these, I prefer the "shoot first, ask questions later" approach (of course I do, I'm from the American West), so we should consistently encourage the victims of incompetent, dishonest outsourcers to post their complaints IMMEDIATELY in full detail on the Blue Board, giving the perps no opportunity whatsoever to dodge the bullet. No mercy, no second chances - no first chances either, as that would be against the site rules


 
Marie-Hélène Hayles
Marie-Hélène Hayles  Identity Verified
Local time: 14:43
Italian to English
+ ...
rules Oct 21, 2008

Kevin Lossner wrote:

Personally I find the idea that one cannot suggest to a thief that a negative rating may be in order if he does not mend his ways is very silly. This encourages such abuses.


Actually, I agree - but rules are rules, and I've seen moderators mention this particular one on several occasions in the past. So I was sure of what I was saying!

[edited, after reflecting on this overnight]

On second thoughts, while I can't disagree with your statement as it stands, it does contradict the spirit of the Blue Board, at least as I understand it.
If the BB is there as a tool to give us some reassurance of the reliability of a given outsourcer, then not posting a bad experience will detract from its usefulness (not that I'm suggesting we should be obliged to post them all of course!).

But worse than that, if the BB is used to threaten outsourcers, then if the threat is effective the translator has two choices - 1) add a good BB rating (which would be totally misleading to everyone else coming along) or 2) add a bad one (in effect lying to the outsourcer - you may say he doesn't deserve to be told the truth, but two wrongs don't make a right in my book).
I suppose a third option would be to add no entry at all, which would probably be the least bad option here. Still.



[Edited at 2008-10-22 06:17]


 
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Is the financial crisis a credible excuse for delaying payment?







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