Igor Indruch Czech Republic Local time: 21:50 Member (2008) English to Czech
Sample work
Nov 21, 2008
I am more and more reluctant to do a test translation. I offer sample translation instead. If they are from the same field, there should be no problem for an outsourcer to accept them...
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ViktoriaG Canada Local time: 15:50 Member (2005) English to French + ...
Contracts for test translations
Nov 21, 2008
Sad as it may seem, I think the best approach to this is to have the prospective client sign a contract for the test. No separate document, just a few sentences outlining your conditions of acceptance of the test translation in the body of the e-mail. You would also ask the prospective client to reply to said e-mail to "sign the contract" - and there would be a clear statement in the same e-mail which basically says that if they don't reply, there's no deal (and no test translation will be done) and that if they do reply, they are bound by the terms and conditions in said e-mail.
Thanks to Charlie for saying more eloquently what I couldn't. We tend to agree in that even if the test translation isn't used (and there was nothing dishonest about the transaction), the translator having provided it should have the right to know why the test was rejected. I think ProZ should let us know once and for all whose side they are on. I know this sounds a little mean, but in my mind, ProZ could be on everyone's side by considering and treating all parties equal. That is, just as agencies and other types of potential clients are entitled to respect and professionalism, translators should also be entitled to the same. One of the things ProZ could do about this is, besides clearly stating that satisfactory translation jobs should be paid, stating that test translations should be responded to. If they are not, then payment is due. That's the way I see it.
When I make an appointment with my doctor and cancel it at the last minute, they charge me for it, because I wasted their precious time. I consider that an agency that has me do a test translation and doesn't reply just wasted my precious time. They, too, should pay for that. When is it going to be recognized that a test translation is an investment on the part of the translator? We don't do test translations for fun - we do them to find more business. I know of hundreds of other activities I'd rather do than translating tests - one of which is paid work.
Also, thanks to John for his to-the-point guidelines for test translations. A lot of wisdom and sense of practicality.
[Edited at 2008-11-21 16:23 GMT]
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KSL Berlin Germany Local time: 21:50 German to English
Quam tauri merda
Nov 21, 2008
Gerard de Noord wrote:
... what else can future customers ask for but test translations. I welcome the new certification program at this site but test translations will remain the ultimate proof of our craftsmanship.
I'm not sure about the correctness of my Latin after more than 30 years of non-use, but I am sure that there are other, better proofs of "craftsmanship". Tonight I received a similar, private message from a frustrated translator who was given no feedback on a test. I really wonder when some of us will grow up and leave these childish free tests behind. I have hypocritically made a very few exceptions to my "firm" rule against free test translations, but I usually had ulterior motives, like recycling them as samples for my profile. (These are so old in the meantime that they would probably embarrass me if I took another look at them!)
That's what I'd do with those tests at this point, Marius - more samples for your profile.
If a prospect is not satisfied with examples you can provide or is not willing to pay for a short sample of their own translated by you, then that is not a serious prospect. Period. Yes, yes - I know that there are a lot of monkeys out there banging away at keyboards, giving us all a bad name, and I'm sure the PMs and former PMs among us can share horror stories, but get real people: as a serious business person, you must be prepared to invest money to make money. If an agency "can't" afford twenty or thirty dollars for a "test", then they are not to be taken seriously. I don't give a damn how big the company is or how fancy their downtown offices in Madrid, London or New York are. If small-timers in New Zealand, Holland or Germany can pay me to do a page or two of a "test", they can too.
I'll wrap this up with a link to the ATA's "Code of Professional Conduct and Business Practices", which - although I am not a member - I heartily endorse:
Note point IID the next time a corporate member of the ATA asks you for a free test translation, and feel free to tell anyone else that you follow this code of conduct in your own practice. I think it ought to be added to ProZ's own code.
[Edited at 2008-11-21 20:23 GMT]
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Bernhard Sulzer United States Local time: 15:50 English to German + ...
connect jobs
Nov 23, 2008
Hi, LittleBalu,
I hope to have lost my naive attitude, at least as far as test translations are concerned, but I think it would be important to share this with you too:
The reason I got into that last test translation fiasco was because I first answered a connect-jobs posting believing it to be trustworthy.
Then the poster told me he wanted a test translation.
Because this was "disguised" as a connect job, I answered it in the first place.
Just want to warn everybody.
The connect job feature is great and staff at proz.com will certainly try to improve it and help prevent misuse by people as the one I referred to here who by the way has been blocked from posting more jobs.
By the way, the particular connect job I saw and replied to was also posted as a regular job one day later with a moderator disclaimer about not having been able to verify poster data. Unfortunately, I did not see that one until recently. It had been answered by 57 translators.
Bernhard
LittleBalu wrote:
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
In his request for a test translation, he mentioned the possibility of participating in an ongoing project with 100 000 words.
I received the very same enquiry twice within a matter of minutes but with different URL links (huge project, ongoing collaboration, bla bla). Didn't even bother to respond.
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MariusV Lithuania Local time: 22:50 English to Lithuanian + ...
TOPIC STARTER
Non gratum anus rodentum
Nov 23, 2008
I FULLY agree with Kevin's point, esp. "If an agency "can't" afford twenty or thirty dollars for a "test", then they are not to be taken seriously." Because these 20-30 dollars "afforded" can save hundreds and even thousands of dollars if something bad happens with the quality. Moreover, any serious agency HAS and MUST HAVE professional proofers.
Just a situation I had in September. A really serious translation agency approached me with a proposal of permanent cooperation (a dozen of pages per week of press releases). They asked to complete a short test translation. I refused, but understood their point - they really wanted to be sure they can get decent translations. But offered them a solution - to send/order a small job upon the agreed rate and simply let their revisers do their work too. Got two pages to translate. It was revised. All was OK. Then I got more work (8 pages). Did it. The revisers did their work too. Received their comments on some "terminology preferences". We hd a discussion on these issues. Now all is clear, I get work, both sides are happy. And there was NO NEED for any free tests. Moreover, we got straight to the matter (first job came after the rates were agreed, and there was no need to wait for the "test feedback"). If an agency has a real and existing QA system, nothing will skip through them (even "human factor" errors) as their revisers (professional people) are always "on guard". And those agencies who ask for all those free tests, to fill all those "online forms for their databases" (what for if they have a full contact info) where you do not even understand what they want under some questions (let alone your personal info floating in the ocean of Internet), are simple time wasters.
[Edited at 2008-11-23 23:18 GMT]
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KSL Berlin Germany Local time: 21:50 German to English
That's the way grown-ups work
Nov 24, 2008
MariusV wrote:
Now all is clear, I get work, both sides are happy. And there was NO NEED for any free tests.
Exactly right - this is the professional approach to dealing with these things. Refusal/compromise like this is also a good test of flexibility for the other party; if a potential partner is inflexible on a pocket-picking point like this one in the beginning, it's simply not a relationship that interests me. There's an agency here in Germany that has lovely projects in agriculture and a few other areas that I would have great fun with, and they contact me every year or two to see if I'm interested in cooperation. Well, yes I am. However, since they insist that I must be processed like a German sausage through the mill of their "standard test procedures", I end up blowing them off every time. Yes, I'm busy as hell, but I could make the time if I wanted to, just blow off a little less steam in the forums or write a few less blog posts. But I just can't bring myself to do those test translations, because it feels very, very wrong.
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MariusV Lithuania Local time: 22:50 English to Lithuanian + ...
TOPIC STARTER
A couple of more issues about these tests
Nov 24, 2008
Kevin Lossner wrote:
MariusV wrote:
Now all is clear, I get work, both sides are happy. And there was NO NEED for any free tests.
Exactly right - this is the professional approach to dealing with these things. Refusal/compromise like this is also a good test of flexibility for the other party; if a potential partner is inflexible on a pocket-picking point like this one in the beginning, it's simply not a relationship that interests me. There's an agency here in Germany that has lovely projects in agriculture and a few other areas that I would have great fun with, and they contact me every year or two to see if I'm interested in cooperation. Well, yes I am. However, since they insist that I must be processed like a German sausage through the mill of their "standard test procedures", I end up blowing them off every time. Yes, I'm busy as hell, but I could make the time if I wanted to, just blow off a little less steam in the forums or write a few less blog posts. But I just can't bring myself to do those test translations, because it feels very, very wrong.
1) Tests are the instrument to get the first impression (I think this is the most one can "get to know" from a small test). And the first impression is NOT always correct. An example my colleague, who has an agency, told me some time ago. They "tested" one translator with a very nice CV and etc. for a job of translating a history book. They sent her one article of 3 pages. All was done very well. They were happy ON THE BASIS OF THE TEST TRANSLATION (also of a quite small rate) and signed a contract for the translation of the book (over 200 pages). Guess how it ended? The translator was late for almost a week, and, when they got the translation, they were simply shocked by its inferior quality (with school grammar mistakes, not even speaking about the knowledge of history). How it ended - they suffered a LOT of losses, had to "mobilize" the whole team of free translators to SPLIT the book for 15 persons to be done in the most possible short deadline (as the printing house was waiting for the texts). So, how came that test was done very well? They think she ordered these couple of pages at some very professional agency or translator as to make a very good impression and to get the whole job...There were SO MANY absurds in the translation that it was unimaginable.
2) Being busy - also the thing that matters. Even if one is not busy, the simple "tendency" is that those free test askers very rarely give ANY JOBS at all. Even if they get one processed. And vice versa - those who do not ask for those tests, they DO GIVE jobs and they DO HAVE their QA system (at least someone to read what they get). And from a pure logical side - why to contact someone asking to provide services if that someone is not trusted and has to prove he/she is PROFESSIONAL. The same absurd would be if a translator writes an email to an agency proposing his/her services, and when the agency responds "Yes, we are interested", then they get a demand - "Please register at my online clients list and please send me a 50 EUR test payment to be sure you are good payers"...
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Mervyn Henderson Spain Local time: 21:50 Member Spanish to English + ...
Send it by fax
Nov 25, 2008
I can't remember who it was on this forum, but they suggested translating any test suspected of being a real job, printing it out, and sending it by fax in some daft difficult-to-scan script like GillSans. If you're feeling that way, it doesn't get you paid, but it gets you even.
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KSL Berlin Germany Local time: 21:50 German to English
Oh darn!
Nov 25, 2008
Mervyn Henderson wrote:
I can't remember who it was on this forum, but they suggested translating any test suspected of being a real job, printing it out, and sending it by fax in some daft difficult-to-scan script like GillSans.
Ooooooh. You have weakened my resolve, Mervyn. I like that one so much that I might just do that some day just for fun
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xxxVerse 5B Bosnia and Herzegovina Local time: 21:50 English to Serbian + ...
...
Dec 1, 2008
Strangely enough, I've just realized that the biggest and best paid projects I had never required a test translation ! It almost seems like a rule that the agencies that are into test translations are untrustworthy.
My best projects, viewed from all aspects : employer's friendly attitude, good pay, interesting content, excellent responsiveness, clear instructions - were with employers who never required a test translation. For them, it was enough to read through my CV and references to decide to hire me and offer me to sign a project agreement, usually within a very short time counting from the beginning of the negotiation.
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Marlene Blanshay Canada Local time: 15:50 Member (2009) French to English + ...
testing
Dec 13, 2008
I don't mind doing tests on occasion. I understand that some agencies want to weed out those who aren't qualified. But sometimes I've found that I don't do that well on tests, costing me a possible job and long term supplier,when i know that otherwise I'd do very well! So far, the people who've been supplying me with steady work are ones for whom I didn't do any tests. Larger agencies ask for tests, but they seem to deliver less work.
So far I haven't been shafted by a test; i know it's unpaid. Recently though, I applied at a small local agency who needed people in my language pair. She gave me a small press release to do, saying it would be way to test my ability, but it would be paid according to my rate- even if she doesn't like it she said she will pay me. Since it's local, I can always go over there and demand payment...lol.
The thing with tests is they should only be a few paragraphs, or about 300 words or so. IF someone asks me to do five pages or something- forget it!!!
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