| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Road to Slavery? (Discussion on a perceived fall in prices) Thread poster: Michael Meinhardt
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Verse 5B (X)
Local time: 19:01
English to Serbian
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| Bidding principle/ system | Dec 11, 2008 |
Why are you so surprised about this ?
When you constantly have 10-20 people racing for the same job posting through bidding, they will do their best to win the bid over others, and one of the best method for this is to offer lowest rate. Why do you think the bidding is all about anyway? For employers to find a top-notch translator ? No, they can find one in their physical neighborhood, quite easily. No need to log on the Internet. However, when they have a possibility of a bidding ... See more Why are you so surprised about this ?
When you constantly have 10-20 people racing for the same job posting through bidding, they will do their best to win the bid over others, and one of the best method for this is to offer lowest rate. Why do you think the bidding is all about anyway? For employers to find a top-notch translator ? No, they can find one in their physical neighborhood, quite easily. No need to log on the Internet. However, when they have a possibility of a bidding ( race), not only will they get a good translator, but also a cheap translator, because they motivate ( i.e. force ) them to lower their rates by the very nature of the bidding system.
I think it would be much more fair if they simply set a rate themselves, emailed chosen translators with their proposed rate, and then see who accepts. Unfortunately, it is never about fairness.
p.s. Did I mention I am tired of bidding ? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Maybe I don't understand the PROZ concept | Dec 11, 2008 |
From what Kevin an Ralf say it sounds like there are alternatives to quoting on job posts. I wasn't aware of that.
My impression was that that's all there is. People/companies needing translations post them as jobs and translators offer themselves with their experience and prices.
That, to me, is the essence of PROZ. Am I wrong?
As to my areas of expertise, Kevin. They are what they are. Sorry. I can't just put something else in there. It's bad enough I had... See more From what Kevin an Ralf say it sounds like there are alternatives to quoting on job posts. I wasn't aware of that.
My impression was that that's all there is. People/companies needing translations post them as jobs and translators offer themselves with their experience and prices.
That, to me, is the essence of PROZ. Am I wrong?
As to my areas of expertise, Kevin. They are what they are. Sorry. I can't just put something else in there. It's bad enough I had to change my language setting because PROZ was hiding potential orders from me that I was able to see before the new policy. But I won't go into that again. Unless you make me, and trust me, you shouldn't.
Kevin, you also make it sound as if price is rather immaterial to a company needing translations. This flies in the face of my experience and the experience of pretty much everyone reading this post, I'm sure.
I would venture to say that 90% of all orders are decided based on price, not experience and unfortunately not quality either.
Take a look around. Read some of the crap floating around out there and then tell me again that "quality work" is a term you would choose to describe it. ▲ Collapse
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Tomas Mosler wrote:
The thing is that one real world end customer (not an agency) here in CZ (branch office) I contacted some time ago - a famous foreign leading producer of optics / cameras etc... - offers about 0,0275 eur / source word.
I don't think so - they offered that rate to YOU when you approached them. I would build no generalizations on that. If anything, just a case study.
I live in Poland, which means a new-EU sibling economy to CZ, and the branch offices of multinationals usually use agencies, sometimes just because that's the corporate policy they cannot deviate from, or employ in-house translators. At least, those I have met on my way.
If such agencies cooperating with multinationals are able to offer me at least a double of the rate you mention and still make good money, then I consider the situation you're describing to constitute an attempted robbery. Unless they would then have to send the text to a publisher to get it ready for publication. Then from their point of view you'd deliver a semi-finished product only, without the publication HW/SW at your disposal. They have no reason to know what percentage of publication costs is normally taken by translation, as they have no experience.
Of course, there are end-customers and end-customers. Same as with agencies, some of them expect top quality at top rates, some would go for crap as long as it's cheap, and most stay in between. Some require extensive DTP services that an individual translator is usually unable to provide, and the multinationals usually belong to this group. After all, a publication of a listed corporation prospectus does require a complex service.
Some others need translation of simple Word documents 90% of the time and will be only happy to pay you 5% less than they used to pay an agency who needed to balance the overheads created by serving the more demanding end-customers. The only problem is to single them out in the market and make them select you as translation provider. But that's what freelancing is all about, isn't it?
[Edited at 2008-12-11 21:55 GMT]
| | | | Verse 5B (X)
Local time: 19:01
English to Serbian
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Yes Michael, it is true.
But what happens in the following situation:
Say there were 15 people who sent quotes for the same job..
Now, let's say 10 of them are not so good at translation, 2 are very good, and 3 are excellent.
Let's focus on the 3 that are excellent. Which one will win the job? I think it is quite evident ( one who offered the lowest rate ).
[Edited at 2008-12-11 22:25 GMT]
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| well well well :) | Dec 11, 2008 |
Iza Szczypka wrote: Tomas Mosler wrote:
The thing is that one real world end customer (not an agency) here in CZ (branch office) I contacted some time ago - a famous foreign leading producer of optics / cameras etc... - offers about 0,0275 eur / source word. I don't think so - they offered that rate to YOU when you approached them.
No, that is actually a rate at which somebody is doing translations for them (I said I could translate for... and they said that is too much).
And, in the country as mine, where agencies offer exactly the same rate (or 0.03 eur) for *customers*, it may be very optimistic to assume that this case is abnormal.
Luckily there are some exceptions and western market.
That's not to complain, just sharing my assumption / scepticism about Czech end clients.
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| Market segments | Dec 12, 2008 |
While I agree that, generally, rates seem to be sinking alarmingly fast, I would like to offer some insight to make a few things clear.
First off, it may be useful to know that the market is divided up into segments. On one end, we have the agency segment. On the other, the direct client segment. In between the two, there are different degrees of agency and direct client mixes. ProZ is way at the agency end of the market. I've never once seen a genuine direct client looking for tran... See more While I agree that, generally, rates seem to be sinking alarmingly fast, I would like to offer some insight to make a few things clear.
First off, it may be useful to know that the market is divided up into segments. On one end, we have the agency segment. On the other, the direct client segment. In between the two, there are different degrees of agency and direct client mixes. ProZ is way at the agency end of the market. I've never once seen a genuine direct client looking for translators here, and even the people that have contacted me directly through ProZ mail were all agencies or other types of outsourcers (no direct clients).
The agency segment of the market is all about price differentiation. That is, most agencies try to win over the competition's business by selling the (supposedly) same service at a lower price. Naturally, to deal with most agencies, translators have to mimic their ways, because that market segment is entirely based on price. However, price differentiation is but one of several value strategies. It's just that, if you wish to try other strategies, you will have to move away from the market segment ProZ is focusing on. This also means you have to start pitching direct clients. This means you'll have to brush up on your marketing skills, learn to sell, learn to network and make marketing an integral part of your business.
As freelance translators, we are translators, we are freelancers, but most of all, we are businesspersons. It is those who have a crystal clear understanding of this and keep this in mind in all their endeavours who come out at the top. There are translators who can command 30 cents per word. Granted, they may also be specialized in rare language pairs or very specific subject matters - but there are also people willing to pay for their expertise. I don't know how exactly they do it (I am still not able to charge 30 cents per word, although I'm working on it), and I am sure they prefer to keep their secrets, but there is one thing I am sure of: these translators do not work with agencies.
You may want to read the following page (and click on the links) to get a general idea of the above. All of the information can be readily applied to freelance translation, although in some cases, you would need to open a company.
http://www.bnet.com/2436-13068_23-188720.html?tag=content;col1
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[Edited at 2008-12-12 03:52 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ralf Lemster 
Germany
Local time: 19:01
English to German
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| Time to conduct some research | Dec 12, 2008 |
Michael,
From what Kevin an Ralf say it sounds like there are alternatives to quoting on job posts. I wasn't aware of that.
They do exist, even if you are unware...
My impression was that that's all there is. People/companies needing translations post them as jobs and translators offer themselves with their experience and prices.
That, to me, is the essence of PROZ. Am I wrong?
Dead wrong.
The most important channel to get jobs is through directory searches. Personally, I have never quoted on a posted job (probably never will), yet I have been contacted through my profile on numerous occasions - including clients who were prepared to match my expected returns.
As to my areas of expertise, Kevin. They are what they are. Sorry. I can't just put something else in there.
Nobody suggested that - what's missing is the focus of your business.
Kevin, you also make it sound as if price is rather immaterial to a company needing translations.
If they are in need of a specialist, and you are that specialist, price is a secondary issue.
I would venture to say that 90% of all orders are decided based on price, not experience and unfortunately not quality either.
Leaving aside the issue of how you determined that percentage, that is irrelevant - provided that you manage to target the remaining 10 per cent.
Being a good linguist is not enough to successfully run an independent business - like any other freelance profession, it takes marketing and business skills, too.
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | | What the market is looking for | Dec 12, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
I've never once seen a genuine direct client looking for translators here, and even the people that have contacted me directly through ProZ mail were all agencies or other types of outsourcers (no direct clients).
The Google ranking for my ProZ profile is so good now that I get a reasonable number of direct clients in my specialty areas (and outside them) contacting me. This is a major benefit of ProZ for me, though it required effort on my part to soup up the profile.
The agency segment of the market is all about price differentiation.
Not all of it, though I'll agree in most cases. There are, however, agencies that simply build a reputation for specializing in certain areas, such as security systems and building technology. Or environmental issues. Among these specialists, price does not seem to be the driving factor at all. Heck, just look at Ralf's rates on his web site. And he gets away with them, because he offers differentiated service. And I don't think that price is the main factor in choosing his translators. His agency is no exception even if it is exceptional in many ways
Michael said
From what Kevin and Ralf say it sounds like there are alternatives to quoting on job posts. I wasn't aware of that.
My impression was that that's all there is. People/companies needing translations post them as jobs and translators offer themselves with their experience and prices.
That, to me, is the essence of ProZ.com. Am I wrong?
Wrong? Only in part. That happens, but there is a lot more going on, and the path you describe will seldom take you to the best jobs. Nonetheless, I've grabbed a few that way over the past months at about € 1.20 to € 1.30 per line from agencies, which is low compared to what you'll see from others, but it will do. Some of it was quite general too, not text that required my nerd-like background.
But you will get a bad case of eye strain staring at the screen waiting for such things. If they show up, great - go after them. Most of the time it is better to make them come to you.
As to my areas of expertise, Kevin. They are what they are. Sorry. I can't just put something else in there.
No kidding. I'm not suggesting you make up new ones. It's more a matter of packaging and arrangement. You can give me the best furniture, draperies, wallpaper, etc., and my interior decorating will still be an unattractive disaster. I walked into my GP's new offices the other day to pick up a prescription, and I stood in the lobby in awe of what someone (not even a pro!) had done with a few colors and cheap materials. You've got all the raw material to have a profile that can draw the clients to you so you don't have to go chasing them. Now what does it take to do this? Beats the hell out of me. I can generalize and make suggestions, and ProZ has an article or two or three or more on what to do, but I've seen profiles that appear to meet these criteria that don't draw inquiries. My partner has more experience than I do (almost 3 times as much) and is a better translator in many areas. Her profile is decent I think, but I get a lot of inquiries for HER specialties and she gets very little. I don't understand why myself, though I do intend to study these things more carefully and ask the opinions of business friends who use translation services. For all I know, maybe everyone comes to use my fish glossary or download a rate calculation spreadsheet and decides to offer me a job while they're there. Look at my profile - it's pretty damned technical on the whole, but I've had offers that include well-compensated translation of ordinary job references, diplomas (which I hate and do not advertise as a service) and escort service advertising (the old drunk across the road from me uses prostitutes, but that's about the limit of my familiarity with the industry). Go figure. I'm sure you could have done any of those jobs and probably done them just as well or better.
Kevin, you also make it sound as if price is rather immaterial to a company needing translations. This flies in the face of my experience and the experience of pretty much everyone reading this post, I'm sure...
Take a look around. Read some of the crap floating around out there and then tell me again that "quality work" is a term you would choose to describe it.
Michael, I think you just answered your own objection there. Take a look around at the crap. I see lousy translations from people with 3 decades of experience as mistranslators, and I see great work from new translators that is so good that I download that person's resume and promptly send it to my best clients who are desperate to find skilled translators who also understand a few basic business principles. These people aren't posting jobs on ProZ most of the time, but they are sifting the sands of the profiles looking for the gold nuggets. Put a little polish on your profile and maybe they'll think you are one of them.
The "experience of pretty much everyone" is of zero relevance to me. For it to become relevant, I would have to take the time to analyze what is working and what is not in each individual case. I don't have time for that. What is apparent, however, is that the successful translators who are flooded with work from agencies or otherwise are far from the cheapest. I know that I can get a cheap jacket at Takko, but I'll shop instead at Karstadt - or better yet KaDeWe or Galerie Lafayette, because those places offer the quality I want, and that quality usually lasts. And really, Michael, quite a few buyers of translations do not think differently. If you don't see that, it's because you've been hanging out in the wrong market, agency or otherwise.
| | | | Giulia TAPPI
France
Local time: 19:01
French to Italian
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| Maybe I do not understand your question | Dec 12, 2008 |
Kevin Lossner wrote: Giulia TAPPI wrote:
What really makes me crazy is that my present rate, which is considered far too high by lots of people, is somewhat 10% more than the rate I used to ask when I started translating and interpreting, in the 8Os. How does your productivity now compare to what it was in the 1980's?
but, even if, of course, I am much more experienced, I still work with my brains more than with machines, so my productivity has not increased that much.
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technospeak (X)
France
Local time: 19:01
English to French
| To try to sum up... | Dec 12, 2008 |
I agree with most that has been said in this thread. Here is how I see the situation of our business:
1) Market prices in France are the same compared to the late 80s (much lower in fact!). I used to invoice 0.55 FF per word in 1988 (ie 0.09 euro) to agencies and at the end of the month I had more money than now in term of purchasing power. For those who have been in this business for 20 years or more, can you take a look at your invoices in the 80s, what do you see?
... See more I agree with most that has been said in this thread. Here is how I see the situation of our business:
1) Market prices in France are the same compared to the late 80s (much lower in fact!). I used to invoice 0.55 FF per word in 1988 (ie 0.09 euro) to agencies and at the end of the month I had more money than now in term of purchasing power. For those who have been in this business for 20 years or more, can you take a look at your invoices in the 80s, what do you see?
2) We are in a business that is mostly not understood by end customers who cannot really assess the service they receive. This leaves the door wide open to all sorts of abuses. We should take actions to explain what is our job and what it is not.
3) We are in a business that has no rules, contrary to other businesses such as doctors, lawyers, etc. This also leaves the door wide open to...
4) I agree with Michael to say that 90% of all orders are decided based on price, the majority of them anyway.
5) I agree with Viktoria: the quality of produced translations leaves a lot to be desired.
Freelancers and agencies should really take the bull by the horns now because a trend is developing: companies try to avoid translation altogether (see above) by training their staff in languages (particularly English) and assuming the English documentation will be a one-fit-all scenario.
Quality translation is good for the end customer but it is also good for us because if we do not strive for that we are digging our own grave (of our business I mean!).
Having said that, I know there are still market segments in which you can work normally, that is you get a decent rate and you can spend the time necessary to do a good job. But for how long? Marketing strategy has its limits, particularly in today's world. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Not all offers at Proz look for the cheapest translator | Dec 12, 2008 |
Let me say that I do bid at some of the offers posted here at Proz. Due to the crisis, I was forced in September to raise my rates to some of my old clients and definitely to all new agencies that approach me. My combination is English into Spanish (really crowded one). As an example, I recently "won" a job at 0.12 EUR per word. I am sure, there were many bids lower than that, but I guess I was the most appropriate translator for the job.
When I post a job for one of the companies ... See more Let me say that I do bid at some of the offers posted here at Proz. Due to the crisis, I was forced in September to raise my rates to some of my old clients and definitely to all new agencies that approach me. My combination is English into Spanish (really crowded one). As an example, I recently "won" a job at 0.12 EUR per word. I am sure, there were many bids lower than that, but I guess I was the most appropriate translator for the job.
When I post a job for one of the companies I work for, I always disregard bids that are below what I consider a professional standard (regarding rates). My clients are looking for the most adequate translator for the job and they know that paying little can cost a lot. Of course there are other companies that are only cost-driven and for them, we have a few agencies here in my city who offer ridiculously low rates. And they seem to have translators willing to work for peanuts! But that is their problem. I am not really up for it!
Basically I just want to say that not all offers here are looking for the lowest rate and some of us are really sticking to fair rates for our own good as well as that of the community at large. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Now I'm the one who doesn't understand | Dec 12, 2008 |
Giulia TAPPI wrote:
... I am much more experienced, I still work with my brains more than with machines, so my productivity has not increased that much.
How odd. I've found that when working with my brain in other fields I not only become more experienced, but I also become more efficient in my thought processes and the way I work, and my hourly earnings increase from that alone. But aside from that, I assume that 25 years ago you used a typewriter most of the time. Do you still do this? I assume because you post here that you use a computer? Has this improved your productivity and thus your earnings? Are you really making as little overall as you did 25 years ago when you started?
As they say, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.... 
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