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Translator lied about word count and how should I pay her?
Thread poster: Anna Muntean Stacanova
Nicole Schnell
Nicole Schnell  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:28
English to German
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In memoriam
Emergency? Outsourcing to colleagues only? Dead wrong. Dec 23, 2008

Samuel Murray wrote:

not the usual relationship between a service provider and a client. The OP is not the end-translator's client. She is the end-translator's colleague who asked her to help her out in an emergency situation.

As such, she does not the cash flow that one would normally expect an outsourcing party would have, nor does she have the quality checking capacity that one would normally expect an agency would have.



Good Lord, what a fine excuse. Before you outsource a job, take a look at your bank account. Can you AFFORD outsourcing or are you trying to put the person that does the actual work to the end of the food chain?

How about some ethics instead of gambling.


 
Kevin Lossner
Kevin Lossner  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 10:28
German to English
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Questionable Dec 23, 2008

That sounds all very well, Samuel, but unless there is a very specific agreement to that effect, such cash flow arrangements are a strict no-go and will be rejected in a legal dispute in most civilized countries. Perhaps such an arrangement was made in this case, but I rather doubt it. If I subcontract to anyone, I have an obligation to pay that person (on time) for services rendered regardless of whether I get paid. If I don't have the cash to cover such an action, the answer is simple: don't o... See more
That sounds all very well, Samuel, but unless there is a very specific agreement to that effect, such cash flow arrangements are a strict no-go and will be rejected in a legal dispute in most civilized countries. Perhaps such an arrangement was made in this case, but I rather doubt it. If I subcontract to anyone, I have an obligation to pay that person (on time) for services rendered regardless of whether I get paid. If I don't have the cash to cover such an action, the answer is simple: don't outsource.

The suggestion someone made earlier in this thread about getting a physician's note is a reasonable one, but in any case, the best solution here would have been better communication with the agency in the first place. Things happen. If I have a heart attack tomorrow or come down with Ebola, athlete's foot or some other unpleasant condition, I'm not going to be bothered to run around subcontracting my outstanding work. I'll have someone look at my list of scheduled projects and notify the clients on my behalf (if I am indisposed) for them to handle the matter as they find most appropriate.
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Laura Tridico
Laura Tridico  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 06:28
French to English
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I noted that in my reply, Samuel... Dec 23, 2008

Samuel Murray wrote:

Not necessarily. The fullfillment of a contract between A and B as a precondition for fulfulling a contract between B and C is nothing new in business.


As I said in my initial reply, I'm sure you can find freelancers who would accept those terms. You can enter into a contract for just about anything, and in some cases a relationship like this makes perfect sense. But in this we are talking about a simple freelancer/outsourcer relationship. This provision simply pushes the outsourcer's business risk down the food chain, and it is be foolish for a freelancer to accept it.

Getting back to the point, there's absolutely no indication here that the freelancer was doing the outsourcer some kind of favor. I don't outsource, but if ever I did I'd make sure I was in a position to pay any freelancer working for me. I also wouldn't expect my friends to take a financial hit for doing me a favor.

It's different, of course, if you're in an ongoing business relationship with a colleague - you agree to take risks together. But again, that is clearly not the case here.

You said in your post that "when I have to outsource work to fellow-translators, the understanding is always that I will pay when I get paid." I thought your post was perfectly clear, and I encourage freelancers to reject such proposals.

Laura


 
Charlie Bavington
Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:28
French to English
In keeping with the seasonal spirit... Dec 23, 2008

Samuel Murray wrote:
I understand what you're saying, but the situation described by the OP was not the usual relationship between a service provider and a client. The OP is not the end-translator's client. She is the end-translator's colleague who asked her to help her out in an emergency situation.

As such, ...etc


....I now understand what you are saying too.

However, I would venture to suggest that the solution to such an emergency situation is probably NOT to outsource in the first instance.
Unless, perhaps, you made it absolutely utterly 100% cast-iron loophole-free that the arrangement was as you propose.
In which case, in the time it takes to find a lawyer to draft such an agreement, you will probably be cured and have no need of it.
And in which case, you would probably be lucky to find a sucker to take it on.

Meanwhile...:
Kevin "Lightweight" Lossner wrote
If I ... come down with ... athlete's foot or some other unpleasant condition...

Y'know, you can get cream for that.
You don't have to lie there in your death throes, wasting your final precious lungfuls of air on issuing instructions to your nearest and dearest to contact agencies on your behalf.
I reckon the worst that can happen is a slight oily residue in your sock or on the floor, resulting from not letting the cream absorb fully into the skin.
And perhaps a slightly sticky keyboard from emergency cream application mid-sentence.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:28
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Answer to Laura Dec 23, 2008

Laura Tridico wrote:
You said in your post that "when I have to outsource work to fellow-translators, the understanding is always that I will pay when I get paid." I thought your post was perfectly clear, and I encourage freelancers to reject such proposals.


Actually, I would encourage freelancers to accept such proposals, but only if they represent a deviation from normal situations. Let's call a spade a spade -- my comments referred to doing a colleague a favour. And as with all favours, there are limits to what is reasonable. For example, IMO you can't call a favour and then try to make a profit from the arrangement -- you have to pay at least what you get paid.

Getting back to the point, there's absolutely no indication here that the freelancer was doing the outsourcer some kind of favor.


Well, I'm sure we can argue about this, but I had the distinct impression that the OP's situation was a favour-type of situation.

I also wouldn't expect my friends to take a financial hit for doing me a favor.


I agree. But how big must a favour get before it becomes a hit? That is the question

[Edited at 2008-12-23 18:35 GMT]


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:28
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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Answer to Kevin Dec 23, 2008

Kevin Lossner wrote:
That sounds all very well, Samuel, but unless there is a very specific agreement to that effect, such cash flow arrangements are a strict no-go and will be rejected in a legal dispute in most civilized countries.


I think you are mistaken. The alternative to "pay when you get paid" is to propose very long payment terms. No doubt some people would think "I'll pay you after 90 days" is fairer than "I'll pay you immediate when I get paid", but I don't think so (as long as there is a reasonable expecation to get paid anyway).

As for legal disputes, I concur that a more complex arrangement would likely be more complex or difficult to defend or to prove, but I seriously doubt if it would be rejected outright as a matter of course.

Perhaps such an arrangement was made in this case, but I rather doubt it.


Well, no need to doubt it, Kevin -- the OP said so herself. She specifically stated that she told the colleague that she'd pay him, regardless of whether she herself gets paid.

If I subcontract to anyone, I have an obligation to pay that person (on time) for services rendered regardless of whether I get paid.


Your only obligation to that person would be to honour your agreement with that person. If the agreement is "I'll pay when I get paid", then that is your obligation. Of course, there are unwritten, generally accepted obligations, and one of them is to treat your service provider fairly as far as financial matters are concered.

The suggestion someone made earlier in this thread about getting a physician's note is a reasonable one, but in any case, the best solution here would have been better communication with the agency in the first place. Things happen.


I agree, but I think we all have different ways of dealing with emergency situations and, more importantly, we all have different senses of what our obligation towards our clients are. Some translators regard it as more professional to take initiative and outsource to a colleague in such unfortunate cases, but no doubt other translators believe it is more professional to simply inform the client of the unfortunate situation and then leave it up to him to arrange another translator. But which of these is correct, is a topic for another discussion, I think.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 11:28
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Why is it important? Dec 23, 2008

Charlie Bavington wrote:
Unless, perhaps, you made it absolutely utterly 100% cast-iron loophole-free that the arrangement was as you propose.


Why is it so important in this case, but not in other cases? If you write an e-mail in which you explain in simple words that you'll pay your colleague when the client pays you, how is this any less legally binding than that same e-mail in which you explain that you'll pay your colleague after X number of days? If the wording is simple and umambiguous, and likely to be understood by both parties, then I don't see the problem.

In which case, in the time it takes to find a lawyer to draft such an agreement, you will probably be cured and have no need of it.


I think the lawyer thing is a bit over the top. After all, you don't get a lawyer to scan all your mails before you send them, to prevent yourself from unwittingly entering into agreements that you did not intend.


 
Kevin Lossner
Kevin Lossner  Identity Verified
Portugal
Local time: 10:28
German to English
+ ...
90 day terms? Dec 23, 2008

Samuel Murray wrote:
I think you are mistaken. The alternative to "pay when you get paid" is to propose very long payment terms. No doubt some people would think "I'll pay you after 90 days" is fairer than "I'll pay you immediate when I get paid", but I don't think so (as long as there is a reasonable expecation to get paid anyway).


My standard response to suggestions of 90 day terms... or 60 day terms... or except in the rarest of instances even 45 day terms is a polite invitation for the proposer to take a long walk off a short pier. The only alternative to "pay when you get paid" is to pay when I tell you I expect you to pay. In advance, on delivery, in ten days or maybe 30. Those are my various options which are applied depending on what I consider the risks to be. I have absolutely zero interest in wasting my time with some joker who will pay me in two months while I turn down work from better clients who will transfer the money without me asking the day the invoice arrives. The longer the payment period, the further you go down the pecking order. God herself is wasting her time and mine if she sends me an e-mail from wherever she's hiding offering some juicy text to be paid on 45 day terms. I don't even care if it's the Ten Commandments Version 2.0.


 
RNAtranslator
RNAtranslator  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:28
English to Spanish
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If you don't get money that's fine Dec 23, 2008

Samuel Murray wrote:
Actually, I would encourage freelancers to accept such proposals, but only if they represent a deviation from normal situations. Let's call a spade a spade -- my comments referred to doing a colleague a favour. And as with all favours, there are limits to what is reasonable. For example, IMO you can't call a favour and then try to make a profit from the arrangement -- you have to pay at least what you get paid.


In that case, I agree with you. If you don't get a single cent it is fair. It is the same as if the translator worked directly with the agency. But you did not mention that in your first comment and we thought that your behaviour was unethical. Now it is clear to me.

¡Salud!

Ignacio Vicario Esteban


 
Charlie Bavington
Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:28
French to English
There's yer clue right there Dec 23, 2008

Samuel Murray wrote:
I think the lawyer thing is a bit over the top.

A further clue to the tone could be found in the lengthy passage about cream for athlete's foot.
The overall message was to be taken seriously.
Individual sections... maybe less so.

However, in a semi-serious frame of mind, I genuinely believe that most "agreements" entered into over an email "conversation" are no such thing and only work because 99% of the time things run according to plan and expectation.

We can tell this because the other 1% of the time, one of the parties posts on here.
The first response is always, "well, what does the agreement say?"
And the answer to that is nearly always "it doesn't".
In short, email exchanges, no matter how seemingly watertight, will almost always leave room for misunderstanding, misinterpretation (and for a decent lawyer to drive a tank through, no doubt).

F'rinstance, say you are suggesting such a scheme to me, and you say quite clearly "I'll pay you when I get paid".
If I reply "I'd rather you paid me no later than February, though" - what is the agreement there? Is there one? Is that really a far-fetched scenario for such an exchange? What if I say "OK, but I'd rather you paid me no later than February" - is that substantially different? Is there any agreement on payment terms there? Is "OK but..." effectively a counter-offer which requires your acceptance, for example?
I'm not claiming to know the answers to those questions.

Oh, and the reason it would be so important here and not in other cases is that you are proposing to divert from the norm. I believe that in the UK at least, the courts will use an expectation of standard custom and practice in interpreting such things, so a "vague" agreement will be interpreted in line with custom and practice, to an extent. If you are going against the grain, so to speak, you need to be clearer about your intentions.

Meanwhile, of course, athlete's foot is sapping away your very life blood and the room is growing increasingly dark and ill-defined....


 
Uldis Liepkalns
Uldis Liepkalns  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 12:28
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
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In short Dec 23, 2008

No, I wouldn't. Though I never yet have been in situation like this. Thank God, I've never yet have been so sick I couldn't take a look at the translation I have to deliver. (And when I was in hospital without Internet access, my PMs did it).
You are right about your condition being no excuse, however please note that at least on ProZ bad BB entries are rejected (they are not made public) in cases when quality of service is timely disputed (timely= in reasonable time and this usually is a
... See more
No, I wouldn't. Though I never yet have been in situation like this. Thank God, I've never yet have been so sick I couldn't take a look at the translation I have to deliver. (And when I was in hospital without Internet access, my PMs did it).
You are right about your condition being no excuse, however please note that at least on ProZ bad BB entries are rejected (they are not made public) in cases when quality of service is timely disputed (timely= in reasonable time and this usually is a week or two, but certainly before the payment comes due).

Uldis



Inka Stacanova wrote:
The quality is bad, she lied twice about words count and price per word.

AND THE AGENCY DID NOT ACCEPT HER TRANSLATION.

I also know that I should have checked everything on the spot and say to her immediatelly. And if I was sick it is no excuse

HOWEVER HOW WOULD YOU PAY TO JOB LIKE THIS?
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Kaiya J. Diannen
Kaiya J. Diannen  Identity Verified
Australia
German to English
Favo(u)r? Don't see it Dec 24, 2008

Samuel Murray wrote: ... my comments referred to doing a colleague a favour. And as with all favours, there are limits to what is reasonable. ... Well, I'm sure we can argue about this, but I had the distinct impression that the OP's situation was a favour-type of situation.

Inka Stacanova wrote: I took the job I could not complete because of sickness and so immediatelly found a translator to finish it and said to her that payment will come 30-45 days as agency promised to me or in case agancy does not pay I will pay my money... The translator E... send me the document fast, earlier then I asked for and of course send me invoice.


Whaaaaa? I'm sorry, I'm looking through the OP's posts and I have found nothing so far that indicates any kind of "favour" or relationship based thereupon between the OP and the translator she found to substitute for her own services.

This is a problematic situation regarding word count and quality and the OP's obligations, contractual and/or moral (should they disagree), to her various business partners.

Where did I miss the "favour"?

- - - - -

BTW, what definition of "favour" are we using - can this word even be applied?

The moment payment is mentioned, this is no longer simply a gesture of goodwill and friendliness, it is a business arrangement and needs to be respected by both parties as such. If the parties intend to keep their "friendly" relations, there need to be definitive arrangements regarding quantity and timing of payment, as with any other business arrangement of this type.

Where I come from, absent a specific discussion regarding end client acceptance, this includes paying the person who did the work, regardless of the payment to the outsourcer/colleague. Considering the OP's original specification regarding payment, this would be doubly true.


 
Anna Muntean Stacanova
Anna Muntean Stacanova
United States
Local time: 06:28
Russian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
:et me post answer tomorrow please Dec 24, 2008

Dear All,

I see that the question I asked made quite a different discussion. I read it almost all but by now you have your own discussion and my answer is ont necessary..

I will try to post tomorrow my answer.


p.s. I also noticed that although i skipped many details to get to the main question faster, such as the same/ different payment from agency to me and from me to the translator, me contacting the agency that I am sick, looking at my bank accou
... See more
Dear All,

I see that the question I asked made quite a different discussion. I read it almost all but by now you have your own discussion and my answer is ont necessary..

I will try to post tomorrow my answer.


p.s. I also noticed that although i skipped many details to get to the main question faster, such as the same/ different payment from agency to me and from me to the translator, me contacting the agency that I am sick, looking at my bank account or finding money, many details are just assumed. You can ask, I will answer, but if it is assumed without me confirming.... it is not really fair.

Anyway, thank you really much. I payed the translator on the day I posted the discussion. I asked her to recount the words, so in case there are more words i would gladly for mistake and pay more.
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MariusV
MariusV  Identity Verified
Lithuania
Local time: 12:28
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
I see two reasons and options Dec 24, 2008

Whatever is the source of the misunderstanding, a fair solution should be made. And I see only two solutions:

1) if you made an error in word count (at the end it appeared to be bigger with a bigger invoice amount), i.e. the bigger invoice of the translator is substantiated, it is your own problem - you have to pay what is agreed (and you have to "pay" for your mistakes);

2) if the translator cannot substantiate his/her bigger invoice, and the volume/price of the work i
... See more
Whatever is the source of the misunderstanding, a fair solution should be made. And I see only two solutions:

1) if you made an error in word count (at the end it appeared to be bigger with a bigger invoice amount), i.e. the bigger invoice of the translator is substantiated, it is your own problem - you have to pay what is agreed (and you have to "pay" for your mistakes);

2) if the translator cannot substantiate his/her bigger invoice, and the volume/price of the work is 1:1 as agreed, you simply pay what is agreed (not a cent less, and not a cent more).

Btw, with those excuses "I was sick", moreover, "the quality was so poor..." This is not serious. If the quality is insufficient, you have to inform your translator about that as soon as you realize it (not AFTER invoice).
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José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 07:28
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
Favor? I had an example yesterday Dec 24, 2008

Janet Rubin wrote:
BTW, what definition of "favour" are we using - can this word even be applied?


One colleague works in the same language pair I do, lives maybe 2 miles from me, but we only met face-to-face 4-5 times so far in powwow-like events. Some 95% of her work is medical translations; while I don't translate medical texts at all. Whenever I accidentally get stumped by an occasional medical term, I ask her. Whenever the 5% gets her stumped with some corporate management jargon, she calls me.

Any client brave enough to attempt entrusting me with their medical translation gets poinblank referred to her and another medicine-specialized translator, a former workmate. They can check which one is available, and now and then these two women work together. When this colleague gets some "undesirable" (from her standpoint) management or organizational development stuff to translate, she dumps it on me.

Yesterday she asked me about translating her daughter's school record. As I'm a sworn translator, I do such things often. Do you need it sworn? Nope, they said her daughter could do it herself. But she wanted it professionally done, and pay for it. She faxed me the document. Apart from the names of the various course subjects, all it contained was some personal data, plus subject codes and grades. If I translate the subject names, can you take it from there? Sure! So I did it immediately. Of course, no charge.

Some typical favors for other colleagues having the same status include:
- OCR'ing a scanned PDF or JPG file
- Converting a "difficult" or "troublesome" video file for subtitling
- Extracting audio from video and/or cleaning up a troublesome audio file
- Extracting text from some DTP file
- and so on.

These are people in my everyday network, we refer, subcontract, and get subcontracted by each other. Work is work, favors are favors, and we never have to discuss which is which.


 
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Translator lied about word count and how should I pay her?







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