| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] | Credit Crunch hitting Translators? Thread poster: Raf Uzar
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Rod Walters 
Japan
Local time: 22:07
Japanese to English
| On the other thread maybe | Feb 13, 2009 |
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote: Charlie Bavington wrote:
There is another aspect to all this too, but I am not going to be the first to mention it out loud. Oh, don't keep us in suspenders...
The thing that Stefen Walter mentioned on the grace-and-hosannas thread perhaps? (I went and doomed-and-gloomed that thread just to even things out a bit).
| | | | | Unthinkable? | Feb 13, 2009 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
Could you be suggesting the unthinkable notion that some animals are more equal than others ???
My dear, I think it all the time
| | | | | Pardon for the comment, but... | Feb 13, 2009 |
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
It's also getting boring to see the same old doom-and-gloom and yet-another-ridiculously-low-rate-job-on-Proz threads week after week after week...
Personally, what I have been seeing in this forum lately comes off as a majority of translators being very insecure about the work they do, and not having any faith in their competence. What does that tell the outsourcers? Are we still wondering why those ridiculously low rates are increasingly requested in job posts?
How do we want people to take us seriously if we publicly anticipate the end of the world? What does that say about us? Not that my business relies on the impression translators make on ProZ, but the handful of fear-mongerers is working hard right now to create a lot of negative publicity for the rest of us - and I'm getting weary of being told by prospects that, as opposed to me, others are much more willing to accept the rate they offer (as if rates should be "offered" by outsourcers). So, what I find boring is that a handful of individuals are making all of us seem like incompetent, naive and terrorized people. Thanks, but no thanks.
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Maybe people just see what they want to see or maybe people just retain what they want to retain, but I have been a bit surprised by the direction this thread has taken.
There have always been "lawks a mercy look at this rate" threads. Yup, they can get a bit "oh woe, how ARE we supposed to survive" in tone, and they have been about (like the jobs) for ever. Even during the good times, we were seeing them. And I thought that the consensus was that they were a particular segment we d... See more Maybe people just see what they want to see or maybe people just retain what they want to retain, but I have been a bit surprised by the direction this thread has taken.
There have always been "lawks a mercy look at this rate" threads. Yup, they can get a bit "oh woe, how ARE we supposed to survive" in tone, and they have been about (like the jobs) for ever. Even during the good times, we were seeing them. And I thought that the consensus was that they were a particular segment we didn't need to bother ourselves with unduly.
What is relatively new is the "are we having a recession?" threads. I deliberately haven't revisited any before writing, but they really did seem to me to be genuine queries with no particular message of doom. Business intelligence gathering, as someone succintly put it earlier. Just that. Maybe someone can quote me a line or 2 out of the relevant threads (particularly the OPs in such threads) to demonstrate I am mistaken but that is how I remember them.
But as I said, maybe people just see and retain what chimes in best with their own world view. And that includes me. I see the recession as real, and as a concern, but not the end of the world as we know it. Therefore, I guess, I am likely to view threads about recession through that lens. And respond, as I did earlier, in a manner consistent with that viewpoint.
My perception is that is possible that others are also responding in a manner consistent with their viewpoint. And as The Bard once wisely pointed out, there is such a thing as protesting too much.
And now forgive me for leaving, but I can see a beer with my name on it. ▲ Collapse
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| I don't want to point fingers | Feb 14, 2009 |
I reportedly pointed fingers at people this week, and I don't want to reportedly do that again, so pardon me for simply pasting some strings, without any links (you can use forum search, though). (The emphases are all mine.)
Dated October 4, 2008 (!):The only way to save yourselves is Gold, Silver and other commodities.
This one just last week: The present crisis is reducing activity. Or so everybody says. Even on Proz.com.
And a few from this very thread:We are all being hit by the crisis in some form or another...
...we are all to a greater or lesser extent affected by the so-called credit crunch both in our working and private lives...
The crisis will affect us all in one way or the other.
How can three different people sound so much alike? Could it be they have been reading the same "market intelligence" this week?
| | | | Rod Walters
Japan
Local time: 22:07
Japanese to English
| Very partial indeed | Feb 14, 2009 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
Personally, what I have been seeing in this forum lately comes off as a majority of translators being very insecure about the work they do, and not having any faith in their competence.
Well, you'd be joining a lot of sometimes perceptive people, including Kevin, who are completely and wilfully deluding themselves.
I'm sure there are plenty of translators who are quite secure about the work they do, and with justified faith in their competence who are nevertheless at pains to find enough work. That does not imply that they simply accept their fate, nor does it mean that they will forever accept lower rates or tolerate abusive treatment even once.
Now that we've buried that simple-minded misconception, let's go onto the stupid canard that we lack business competence. OK, I confess, I lack business competence in the same way that all the major Japanese companies I work for do. I guess they probably knew too that a crunch was coming but they wanted to milk the ailing cow while it was still alive, and weren't sure exactly when it would die. Our bad. (Perhaps we were taking the advice to hold the line and talk in a bright, positive manner.) However, I can see the way forward clearly without a business plan or other intellectual crutch because I'm a business wizard who came here with only an assortment of crap in a rucksack and am now much better off.
I have been smug before, and I intend to be smug again, but not in the neurotic, humourless way that I'm seeing here.
OK, now I'm off to enjoy my rather big garden.
| | | | | Depends on the circumstances | Feb 14, 2009 |
People's perspectives depend greatly on their personal circumstances. Some countries are doing better than others right now. In the US, where I am, people are having a tough time and we are battening down the hatches for sure, but it's nothing like Latvia, for instance, where the economy contracted by 10% last quarter (see Forbes, Feb. 9) and which some consider to be in a *depression*, not a recession. I hear fairly dire (and justifiably so) reports from people there. Sure, the global aspect of... See more People's perspectives depend greatly on their personal circumstances. Some countries are doing better than others right now. In the US, where I am, people are having a tough time and we are battening down the hatches for sure, but it's nothing like Latvia, for instance, where the economy contracted by 10% last quarter (see Forbes, Feb. 9) and which some consider to be in a *depression*, not a recession. I hear fairly dire (and justifiably so) reports from people there. Sure, the global aspect of translation can mitigate this to some degree for individuals, but it also takes time and effort to shift gears to more profitable customers/regions/subject areas. If your region is doing better, of course it's easy to think things are being exaggerated.
On a personal note, my family has a refugee background, so that colors my view of things, too. I do tend toward the hand-wringing because I know what my family went through when they had nothing to eat, had to start over in a new country, etc. Of course, I see the news and try to focus on concrete measures I can take to shore up my business. But there is still that little nagging fear of the "worst" that could happen. At least I know that I have some kind of survival gene.
That said, I like the practical course these discussions have taken - I think the discussion will ultimately be quite useful - so I'm off to post in the other thread. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | We are all affected in some way | Feb 14, 2009 |
[quote]Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
I reportedly pointed fingers at people this week, and I don't want to reportedly do that again, so pardon me for simply pasting some strings, without any links (you can use forum search, though). (The emphases are all mine.)
Dear Viktoria,
As one of the people you have quoted, I should like to set the record straight. I suspect you are taking statements such as "The crisis will affect us all in one way or the other" as referring specifically to the translation profession. That was not the inference at all.
What I was saying was that I find it hard if not impossible to believe that any one of us, in our individual lives, be it personal or professional, will not be touched in some way by the crisis. The very fact that we are discussing the subject is surely indicative? Some of us have partners who are already or may shortly find themselves out of work - let's face it, every day another big company announces thousands of lay-offs across the globe, small businesses are going into receivership as the banks pull the plug on them. Others among us may be caught up in negative equity. Some of us may be experiencing problems with exchange rate losses. I personally have been hit in several ways and so have a lot of the people round me.
I also believe that none of us will come out of the crisis totally unscathed. Some may admittedly hardly feel it, but others will feel it much more. I don't know about you but if my friends are suffering, it hurts me too. Globally we were in for changes anyway. The world couldn't go on as it was. Our cock-eyed values were untenable in the long term. Whether we like it or not, the crisis could well bring societal changes. This is my analysis and, and such, suggests that, since everybody else is affected in some way, so will be translation.
After that, it is up to each individual translator to find his or her own salvation. Some of you seem better armed than others. Some may not survive but 'twas ever thus.
My comments were general in nature and intended merely to indicate that any form of depression, recession, etc. is bound to send out waves and there may well be those who drown. This is not gloom and doom about the translation market. It is about facing facts and being better prepared to resist. Going into denial never did anybody any good....
PS I am not a freelance translator and never have been.....
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2009-02-14 09:03 GMT]
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| Thoughtful and undeniable | Feb 14, 2009 |
polyglot45 wrote:
What I was saying was that I find it hard if not impossible to believe that any one of us, in our individual lives, be it personal or professional, will not be touched in some way by the crisis. The very fact that we are discussing the subject is surely indicative? Some of us have partners who are already or may shortly find themselves out of work - let's face it, every day another big company announces thousands of lay-offs across the globe, small businesses are going into receivership as the banks pull the plug on them. Others among us may be caught up in negative equity. Some of us may be experiencing problems with exchange rate losses. I personally have been hit in several ways and so have a lot of the people round me.
I also believe that none of us will come out of the crisis totally unscathed. Some may admittedly hardly feel it, but others will feel it much more. I don't know about you but if my friends are suffering, it hurts me too. Globally we were in for changes anyway. The world couldn't go on as it was. Our cock-eyed values were untenable in the long term. Whether we like it or not, the crisis could well bring societal changes. This is my analysis and, and such, suggests that, since everybody else is affected in some way, so will be translation.
After that, it is up to each individual translator to find his or her own salvation. Some of you seem better armed than others. Some may not survive but 'twas ever thus.
My comments were general in nature and intended merely to indicate that any form of depression, recession, etc. is bound to send out waves and there may well be those who drown. This is not gloom and doom about the translation market. It is about facing facts and being better prepared to resist. Going into denial never did anybody any good....
Impossible not to agree with you there, polyglot - and it's a timely reminder that the current recession isn't only about "us, us, us" and how it affects us as (mostly) freelance translators, but also has far broader implications on other aspects of our own lives and those of our friends and family. In these fora dedicated to such a specific topic, I find it easy to lose sight of the fact that I do actually have a life that doesn't involve Word files and a computer screen! Of course, it's natural and right that we concentrate on the recession with respect to translation on this site, but I for one am glad to be reminded that such a narrow focus can perhaps come across as being insensitive and I'm-all-right-Jackish.
| | | | Raf Uzar
Poland
Local time: 15:07
Polish to English
TOPIC STARTER
Charlie Bavington wrote:
I have been a bit surprised by the direction this thread has taken. What is relatively new is the "are we having a recession?" threads. I see the recession as real, and as a concern, but not the end of the world as we know it.
Most certainly Charlie! When beginning this thread, I really didn't expect the twist and turns that it would take and the lows and highs - emotionally - of the participant. But isn't that the joy of our profession?
| | | | | Clarifications | Feb 14, 2009 |
Thank you, polyglot45, for your post. I hope you weren't saying all that in your defense. I was not quoting you as a doomsayer - I didn't quote anybody as a doomsayer, as a matter of fact (except maybe for the guy who tells us to "save ourselves"). I was merely underscoring the generalizing nature of some of the comments lately. I have nothing against people discussing their preoccupations. It is when very general comments are made (comments containing the word 'all', for instance) that I find t... See more Thank you, polyglot45, for your post. I hope you weren't saying all that in your defense. I was not quoting you as a doomsayer - I didn't quote anybody as a doomsayer, as a matter of fact (except maybe for the guy who tells us to "save ourselves"). I was merely underscoring the generalizing nature of some of the comments lately. I have nothing against people discussing their preoccupations. It is when very general comments are made (comments containing the word 'all', for instance) that I find that it comes off as doomsaying. It isn't the individual posts that I find overly pessimist, either - it is the multiplication of such posts over a short period of time. It reminds me of a virus.
Perhaps Marie-Hélène is the one who pinpoints the problem best: sometimes, some of us forget that life is not made up of just freelancing. Similarly, we are often so isolated in what we do that it is easy to forget that other translators work on much smaller or much bigger documents (this may ring a bell to Marie-Hélène - we just discussed this in another topic), that others are in different countries, under different climates (my client in the Dominican Republic is having a blast when I complain about the half ton of snow I need to shovel), that some work exclusively with direct clients while others work exclusively with agencies, that some specialize in subject matters that are in a bad shape as a result of the crisis, while some are laughing all the way to the bank thanks to their specialization being fashionable these days (finance, anyone?).
I can sympathize with translators who are hit by the crisis, and I did expect that some of us would have a hard time. Note that I say some of us. I am still unwilling to believe that all of us are affected. Unless, as you say, you mean all aspects of life, not just work, in which case I will be the first to admit that I may hold off certain projects for a while as a result of the recession (the prices of some goods and services are skyrocketing). But if we speak strictly business, I don't see a change, and I don't expect any significant change either. I figure there must be others walking in similar sized shoes. But lately, this isn't what I have been seeing on the forum here. Moreover, some of us are only anticipating problems without having a clear indication that they in fact will have problems. As with ridiculously low rates in job posts, I do feel this issue needs to be discussed. I just don't think getting all worked up about hypothetical misfortunes repetitively will have the desired effect, which is, I believe, trying to figure out in what ways the translation industry may be affected and what we can do to limit the damages.
In any case, the original topic here was good news: predictions that the translation industry will tough it all out without any major problems. While some may disagree and while it may be OK to say it out loud, I don't think that contradicting optimism will help people to calm down and think things through. That is anything but constructive.
Of course, the translation industry will be affected - but it will not disappear from the face of the Earth. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Ah. The Nub and crux of the matter | Feb 15, 2009 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
It is when very general comments are made (comments containing the word 'all', for instance) that I find that it comes off as doomsaying.
Which of course also makes you laugh like a drain.
It is all clear now. I don't like generalisations either.
I confess that the gold and silver comment made me smile. I've heard similar on personal finance forums. I missed that comment here on Proz. It doesn't sound unreasonable, until you read other posts from the advocates of investing in precious metals, who often predict that we will have returned to a hunter-gatherer economy before the London Olympics are due to be held.
But if we speak strictly business, I don't see a change, and I don't expect any significant change either. I figure there must be others walking in similar sized shoes. But lately, this isn't what I have been seeing on the forum here. Moreover, some of us are only anticipating problems without having a clear indication that they in fact will have problems.
All of which is perfectly fair and utterly reasonable and expressed in way that no-one could find offensive.
I think anticipating problems, being prepared, is no bad thing. What strikes me as being difficult is knowing whether one's own "personal downturn" is a result of the general economic situation or a result of something one personally has done, or not done. Those blessed with supreme confidence need have no such concerns, of course.
As with ridiculously low rates in job posts, I do feel this issue needs to be discussed. I just don't think getting all worked up about hypothetical misfortunes repetitively will have the desired effect, Again, I don't see people getting too worked up, hysterical or apocalyptic. That could be the lens I see things through. However, as with low rates, I think we are just gonna have to steel ourselves for repetition ad nauseum
Unless we can finally persuade this site to embrace the concept of the "sticky", in which case a "recession" thread would be an ideal candidate.
(Or maybe two threads, an upbeat one and a gloomy one!)
Of course, the translation industry will be affected - but it will not disappear from the face of the Earth.
No, but we will surely lose some practitioners. As with some other areas of economic life, some people will seek to find a similar product at a lower cost, and some will decide to do without it altogether. Marginal suppliers will slip off the edge, and find that they are better off doing something else.
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| In other news.... | Feb 15, 2009 |
In the interests of fairness, I have just seen a post claiming a comet has hit the planet. Me and my big mouth - it don't think it gets more apocalyptic than that.
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