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Fake company in the member's profile?
Thread poster: ksbtranslation

ksbtranslation  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 14:28
Indonesian to English
+ ...
Feb 27, 2009

Referring to my topic as discussed in http://www.proz.com/forum/money_matters/128416-how_to_deal_with_a_hard_to_reach_client.html, it appears that I have been cheated by this outsourcer. The payment due date has passed and she did not respond to my emails. I have tried to search her company's website and found that it is a free email provider in China. None of the company's staffs know about this project.

What surprises me is that she is using other company's name in her profile. Can anyone in Proz.com do something to prevent this issue?

A non-payment report has been made to Proz administrator.


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Tomás Cano Binder, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 09:28
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Post a support ticket about it! Feb 27, 2009

Make sure you post a support ticket so that action is taken immediately.

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Miles Crew  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:28
Chinese to English
Too bad Feb 27, 2009

I almost replied to your original post, but I didn't want to say anything too controversial, but now I will. You shouldn't even consider jobs from mainland China unless the company has a strong Blue Board record. The state of business ethics there makes sending work up front and expecting to be paid later a bit of a risky proposition.

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ksbtranslation  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 14:28
Indonesian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Stunned by the company's name Feb 27, 2009

Miles Crew wrote:

I almost replied to your original post, but I didn't want to say anything too controversial, but now I will. You shouldn't even consider jobs from mainland China unless the company has a strong Blue Board record. The state of business ethics there makes sending work up front and expecting to be paid later a bit of a risky proposition.


I realize that I was too careless. I was stunned by her company's name. When I asked about her address and phone no. which were not found in her PO, she told me to refer to her profile in Proz.com. I should not have relied on any information supplied by Proz.


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Laurent KRAULAND  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 09:28
French to German
+ ...
Never rely... Feb 27, 2009

ksbtranslation wrote:

I realize that I was too careless. I was stunned by her company's name. When I asked about her address and phone no. which were not found in her PO, she told me to refer to her profile in Proz.com. I should not have relied on any information supplied by Proz.


on only one information source, even if it is one of the best.

Laurent K.


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:28
English to German
+ ...
Beware of any jurisdiction where you cannot enforce claims Feb 27, 2009

Miles,

I almost replied to your original post, but I didn't want to say anything too controversial, but now I will. You shouldn't even consider jobs from mainland China unless the company has a strong Blue Board record. The state of business ethics there makes sending work up front and expecting to be paid later a bit of a risky proposition.

Based on experience gained in more than six years of moderating the Blue Board, I would point out that problematic outsourcers can be found anywhere. Accepting a job from any jurisdiction where you cannot enforce your claims (or only at unreasonable cost) represents a risk - not just in China.

Best regards,
Ralf


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 04:28
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
Data in the profile are not provided by ProZ.com Feb 27, 2009

ksbtranslation wrote:
I realize that I was too careless. I was stunned by her company's name. When I asked about her address and phone no. which were not found in her PO, she told me to refer to her profile in Proz.com. I should not have relied on any information supplied by Proz.


The information visible in any profile is not provided by ProZ.com, but by the profile owner.
Usual precautions apply...
For example, a Purchase Order without some essential information, such as the full address, name of the Project manager, and all necessary information for invoicing, is highly suspicious.
The vendor does not really know with whom he is dealing with...

* * * *

On this issue, and restricting the view to ProZ.com only, probably it would not be a bad idea to create some kind of VID program for companies.

I'm sure that many would feel a bit safer if the company data posted in a profile are verified once and for all, by ProZ.com, and then locked, until any change occurs and it is communicated officially.
It could be more efficient than having all members to do the same research, for each and every contact, and a good service to both, the translators and the company too.

Plesae, note that this would not be, by any means, a complete safeguard that the company is serious or that will pay!! To know exactly who they are is just some little help, when dealing with companies operating from other countries, if they have submitted the relevant ID details and accompanying evidence.

I'll drop here the suggestion "as is", without further details, if somebody wants to pick it up and elaborate...

Gianfranco


[Edited at 2009-02-28 01:50 GMT]


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Walter Landesman
Uruguay
Local time: 04:28
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
ID verification for agencies Feb 27, 2009

gianfranco wrote:

On this issue, and restricting the view to ProZ.com only, probably it would not be a bad idea to create some kind of VID program for companies.

I'm sure that many would feel a bit safer if the company data posted in a profile are verified once and for all, by ProZ.com, and then locked, until any change occurs and it is communicated officially.
It could be more efficient than having all members to do the same research, for each and every contact, and a good service to both, the translators and the company too.



This is a very good idea. I certainly support this proposal.

Walter


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Jessica Noyes  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:28
Spanish to English
+ ...
Certified Pro Network for Agencies Feb 28, 2009

Great idea! Have them jump through similar hoops to those our "certified pro" people have experienced, and thus earn a seal that we translators can -- to some extent -- rely on.

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ksbtranslation  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 14:28
Indonesian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
My idea Feb 28, 2009

gianfranco wrote:

On this issue, and restricting the view to ProZ.com only, probably it would not be a bad idea to create some kind of VID program for companies.

I'm sure that many would feel a bit safer if the company data posted in a profile are verified once and for all, by ProZ.com, and then locked, until any change occurs and it is communicated officially.
It could be more efficient than having all members to do the same research, for each and every contact, and a good service to both, the translators and the company too.

Plesae, note that this would not be, by any means, a complete safeguard that the company is serious or that will pay!! To know exactly who they are is just some little help, when dealing with companies operating from other countries, if they have submitted the relevant ID details and accompanying evidence.

Gianfranco

This is a good idea indeed. But don't you think it will be much more helpful if Proz handle the transaction. I have suggested this idea to Proz a long time ago. My idea is that the outsourcer should pay up front to Proz by any means of payment and Proz will retain it until the job is finished and accepted. In this way, the vendors will be able to focus on their jobs and produce quality translation. Let's say goodbye to Blueboard and doing any other jobs than translation, such as googling some suspicious companies. In case of unacceptable translation, the outsourcer should be allowed to request for discounts which will be deducted from their payment to Proz.

Let me know what you think?


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:28
English to German
+ ...
Certified PRO exists for corporate members Feb 28, 2009

Hi Jessica,
Please note that Gianfranco suggested to have a verified ID for corporate members.

Jessica Noyes wrote:

Great idea! Have them jump through similar hoops to those our "certified pro" people have experienced, and thus earn a seal that we translators can -- to some extent -- rely on.

The Certified PRO network also includes corporate members. I didn't have to jump through any hoops, but (in the absence of formal certification) had to submit a description of the translation, project management, and quality assurance processes applied by my business. The full requirements are set out here.

Best regards,
Ralf


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gianfranco  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 04:28
Member (2001)
English to Italian
+ ...
Problems with an escrow service Feb 28, 2009

ksbtranslation wrote:
... don't you think it will be much more helpful if Proz handle the transaction. I have suggested this idea to Proz a long time ago. My idea is that the outsourcer should pay up front to Proz by any means of payment and Proz will retain it until the job is finished and accepted. In this way, the vendors will be able to focus on their jobs and produce quality translation. Let's say goodbye to Blueboard and doing any other jobs than translation, such as googling some suspicious companies. In case of unacceptable translation, the outsourcer should be allowed to request for discounts which will be deducted from their payment to Proz.


I think that it would be a good idea, and it has been uttered more than once in this forum and amongst moderators, but it has never been commented by the site. I also think that it is probably not likely to succeed, for several reasons:

1. Not many outsourcers are prepared to fork out the money in advance, even to a third party acting as an escrow service. This would limit severely the diffusion of the service.

2. The regulations for providing such financial service may be very stringent, possibly far beyond ProZ.com possibilities and capabilities.

3. The costs for organizing the service, given the limitation at the point 1, may exceed the possible revenues. In short, it would cost a lot to organize but it would generate a very low volume of transaction, and therefore very little in terms of commissions.

4. In case of dispute, justified or not, the payment would need to be blocked and a complex and expensive procedure of conflict resolution would need to be in place. This is probably not convenient for small transactions as we normally conduct in our profession.


The only possible solution could be a partnership with an existing and established escrow service (to overcome the problems 2. and 3.), and make it available to the site members, but the small number of outsourcers available and the small value of each transaction (problem 1. and 4.) and the complication in solving any dispute that may arise, would not be solved.

Escrow services are typically employed, as I learnt time ago, for high value and uncomplicated transactions, such as the sale of houses or other goods, but not in the service industry.


Gianfranco


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Aniello Scognamiglio  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:28
English to German
+ ...
ProZ is a communication platform for linguists Feb 28, 2009

ksbtranslation wrote:

But don't you think it will be much more helpful if Proz handle the transaction. I have suggested this idea to Proz a long time ago. My idea is that the outsourcer should pay up front to Proz by any means of payment and Proz will retain it until the job is finished and accepted.


Hi ksbtranslation,

I disagree with your suggestion. It is not up to ProZ to run YOUR business.
It's about the same as asking ProZ to negociate rates for you.

No thanks!

Aniello

[Edited at 2009-02-28 13:03 GMT]


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Maria Karra  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 03:28
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
VID Feb 28, 2009

gianfranco wrote:
On this issue, and restricting the view to ProZ.com only, probably it would not be a bad idea to create some kind of VID program for companies.

I'm sure that many would feel a bit safer if the company data posted in a profile are verified once and for all, by ProZ.com, and then locked, until any change occurs and it is communicated officially.
It could be more efficient than having all members to do the same research, for each and every contact, and a good service to both, the translators and the company too.


Excellent suggestion! I'm 100% in favor.
Staff, can this be implemented, please?


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ksbtranslation  Identity Verified
Indonesia
Local time: 14:28
Indonesian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Make Proz.com a safer place for the vendor and reliable place for outsourcer Feb 28, 2009

gianfranco wrote:


3. The costs for organizing the service, given the limitation at the point 1, may exceed the possible revenues. In short, it would cost a lot to organize but it would generate a very low volume of transaction, and therefore very little in terms of commissions.

Gianfranco


Costly? No I don't think so. Proz will be able to make use of its existing tools: job posting, project history, wallet and web-based invoice. The flow chart may look like this:

Outsourcer posts a translation job -> Vendor submits a quote -> Outsourcer picks a vendor suited to the job -> Vendor accepts the offer (it means both parties have made a deal) -> invoice sent by vendor to outsourcer by using web-based invoice -> outsourcer makes payment to Proz by using wallet, paypal or moneybookers -> Proz notifies the vendor that the job should be started -> the job will be recorded in vendor's project history -> receipt to be sent by Proz to outsourcer -> vendor finishes the job, sends the translation directly to outsourcer and notifies Proz -> Proz asks for confirmation from outsourcer -> 1. if the outsourcer accepts the translation the payment will be forwarded to vendor; 2. if the outsourcer accepts the translation on condition that the vendor will make correction, the payment will be held until the correction is completed; 3. if the outsourcer rejects the translation due to low quality, the payment will be deducted or probably cancelled and returned to outsourcer. Commission fee can be applied to the payment which will bring more income for Proz.

This will make Proz.com a safer place for the translators and reliable place for outsourcer.

Many professionals and businesses put their trust in Proz. Do not let anyone become a victim of scam like me.

Best regards,
Iwan


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