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Low-paid job and only available to platinum members, to boot!
Thread poster: Francesco Barbuto

Francesco Barbuto  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:12
English to Italian
+ ...
Aug 2, 2003

Hi All,

Something Wrong???

And they only ask for Platinum Members, supposedly the most qualified ones!!!

Regards,

FFB

[Edited at 2003-08-03 23:07]

[Edited at 2003-08-03 23:10]


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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 13:12
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
An option for job posters... Aug 2, 2003

Hi Francesco,

Nobody has ever said that Platinum members are more qualified than non-Platinum. They are only *paying members*.

And then, it is a choice made by the job poster whether to offer her/his job to all members or to Platinum only.

Giuliana



[Edited at 2003-08-02 07:44]


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Francesco Barbuto  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:12
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Adverbs do count! Aug 2, 2003

Giuliana Buscaglione wrote:

Hi Francesco,

Nobody has ever said that Platinum members are more qualified than non-Platinum. They are only *paying members*.

And then, it is a choice made by the job poster whether to offer her/his job to all members or to Platinum only.

Giuliana



[Edited at 2003-08-02 07:44]



Yep. Infact, I used the adverb SUPPOSEDLY to limit and characterize the range of the adjective qualified.

Do not you think ADVERBS have a value?

Regards,

FFB



[Edited at 2003-08-02 09:20]


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:12
English to German
+ ...
What's your point? Aug 3, 2003

Francesco,
Despite the fact that your heading was edited, I'm still uncertain as to what exaclty your point is...

Can you enlighten us, please?

Thanks, Ralf


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Francesco Barbuto  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:12
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
MODERATORS of the World over, UNITE!!! Aug 3, 2003

Ralf Lemster wrote:

Francesco,
Despite the fact that your heading was edited, I'm still uncertain as to what exaclty your point is...

Can you enlighten us, please?

Thanks, Ralf


I was just STATING that NO MATTER those shabby outsorcers offer OFFENSIVE RATES they, AS WELL AND STILL, DEMAND AND PRETEND THE BEST QUALITY.

Just bluntly (or purposefully) ignoring that paltry rates deliver shabby translation!




HTH


FFB (This is my signature, just in case!)

[Edited at 2003-08-03 20:01]


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:12
English to German
+ ...
No need to scream... Aug 3, 2003

...at least not at me...

Francesco, whilst I can see your point, I think you're wasting your time and energy. IMO offers such as this are simply not worth taking notice. If someone wants to do that job at the price stated, that's their decision - and their problem, of course...

Best regards, Ralf


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Francesco Barbuto  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:12
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
No screams, just emphasis, stress, accent... Aug 3, 2003

Ralf Lemster wrote:

...at least not at me...

Francesco, whilst I can see your point, I think you're wasting your time and energy. IMO offers such as this are simply not worth taking notice. If someone wants to do that job at the price stated, that's their decision - and their problem, of course...

Best regards, Ralf



Ralf,

Please, no screams, just stress!
Do not agree at all. Cannot agree at all with your opinion!
Proz, being a public venue, cannot deal such an issue with SILENCE; such an attitude would amount to a whitewash and, in a way, to a biased and unlawful tolerance toward a criminal act.
No, Ralf, I am not drunk; and not screaming at all! I am just rising an issue that need to be dealt with in the most orderly and convenient way. For instance, pinning any professional to a wage below the legal threshold, a 0.02 USD rates from any outsourcer and any job is de facto illegal in the New York state. Indeed, the US law forbid the fixing of goods' price but DOES provide a social security protection for wage earner, particularly as far as New York state is concerned. I have been lawfully working (J-1 Visa Status from INS) in the USA for three months; namely: in New York city and in Atlantic city. And there were sound low wages threshold: 5.14 USD in Atlantic City and 6.14 USD in New York.
Wages below these amount were respectively illegal in New Jersey and New York states.
Allowing outsourcers to pay rates that straight lead to wages lower than the state fixed threshold is, indeed, illegal, as far as I know. I may be wrong; I am not a lawyer, of course. But, there is a concern, though!

Such tawdry jobs need to be washed off Proz, not tolerated! It is a matter of principle, of honour if you want or, better, it is all about dignity and professionality! A job offer for 0.02 USD per word is an unsettling and unbearable slap, such that cannot be allowed at all!


Cheers,

FFB



[Edited at 2003-08-03 22:58]


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pmakinen  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:12
Member (2005)
Russian to English
+ ...
The Situation As I Recall It Aug 4, 2003

Francesco Barbuto wrote:

Indeed, the US law forbid the fixing of
goods' price



Conspiracy in restraint of trade, Sherman Antitrust Act

but DOES provide a social security protection for wage earner, particularly as far as New York state is concerned.



I think New York follows the federal employee/independent-contractor classification rules (see below).

See



I have been lawfully working (J-1 Visa Status from INS) in the USA for three months; namely: in New York city and in Atlantic city. And there were sound low wages threshold: 5.14 USD in Atlantic City and 6.14 USD in New York.



On the US federal level, minimum-wage laws only apply to FLSA (roughly the same as W-2)employees, not FLSA (roughly the same as 1099) independent contractors.

See

A job offer for 0.02 USD per word is an unsettling and unbearable slap, such that cannot be allowed at all!



I have mixed feelings about this. Many years ago, when I was first starting out, I worked exclusively for a couple of clients that paid near-rock-bottom rates per word. I essentially taught myself how to translate over a two-to-three-year period using their material. There was little feedback, but I took the work seriously, and kept improving my style as much as I knew how. Now that I more or less know what I'm doing, I don't take the low-paid work anymore.

I suspect that this is generally the path taken by many others...persons living in low-wage countries may have a different view of these low rates...remember, we have a worldwide market now.


[Edited at 2003-08-03 22:58]


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 13:12
English to German
+ ...
ProZ.com is not an employer Aug 4, 2003

Francesco,
Please, no screams, just stress!

Excessive use of capitals in an Internet forum is generally considered the equivalent of screaming.

Do not agree at all. Cannot agree at all with your opinion!
Proz, being a public venue, cannot deal such an issue with SILENCE; such an attitude would amount to a whitewash and, in a way, to a biased and unlawful tolerance toward a criminal act.

I don't follow your legal reasoning here, but rest assured ProZ.com does not ignore these issues. Neither do moderators. But I'm afraid simply complaining isn't going to rectify the situation: we've had bundles of thread such as this one, but their effect on prices is zero. As we have pointed out in several threads, we're working on a redesign of the Jobs Area which is going to help outsourcers and providers fulfilling certain standards to meet on-site.

No, Ralf, I am not drunk; and not screaming at all!

Who said you were drunk??

I am just rising an issue that need to be dealt with in the most orderly and convenient way.

Agreed. Asking "moderators the world over" to unite is not exactly the most efficient way to do it, IMO.

For instance, pinning any professional to a wage below the legal threshold, a 0.02 USD rates from any outsourcer and any job is de facto illegal in the New York state.

Who is pinning anyone to a rate? Who forces you to accept that price? I agree the price offered is ridicolous, but that's an offer - if you don't like it (which I can wholeheartedly understand), don't take it.

Indeed, the US law forbid the fixing of goods' price but DOES provide a social security protection for wage earner, particularly as far as New York state is concerned. I have been lawfully working (J-1 Visa Status from INS) in the USA for three months; namely: in New York city and in Atlantic city. And there were sound low wages threshold: 5.14 USD in Atlantic City and 6.14 USD in New York.
Wages below these amount were respectively illegal in New Jersey and New York states.

A wage would necessitate some form of employment - I'm not a lawyer, but I find it difficult to construct an employer/employee relationship between ProZ.com and freelancers (who are, by definition, independent entrepreneuers as opposed to employees).

Such tawdry jobs need to be washed off Proz, not tolerated! It is a matter of principle, of honour if you want or, better, it is all about dignity and professionality! A job offer for 0.02 USD per word is an unsettling and unbearable slap, such that cannot be allowed at all!

As I said, the issue of minimum prices was discussed over and over again in these forums - leaving legal issues aside, the question is if and how such a rule would work in the first place? Do you really think an outsourcer is going to raise the price just because ProZ.com is going to tell him/her so? Also, if someone offers a job, and someone else is willing to do the job, at the price quoted, who are we to step in and say: "You cannot do that?" At what price level?

As a first step, ProZ.com has implemented a rates system to avoid sending out notifications of low-price jobs to site members - but I'm sure you're aware of that. We're working on other measures, however, our first priority was the Blue Board. Thanks for your patience.

Best regards, Ralf


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Egmont
Spain
Local time: 13:12
Afrikaans to Spanish
+ ...
platinum... Aug 4, 2003

Ralf Lemster wrote:

Francesco,
Please, no screams, just stress!

Excessive use of capitals in an Internet forum is generally considered the equivalent of screaming.

Do not agree at all. Cannot agree at all with your opinion!
Proz, being a public venue, cannot deal such an issue with SILENCE; such an attitude would amount to a whitewash and, in a way, to a biased and unlawful tolerance toward a criminal act.

I don't follow your legal reasoning here, but rest assured ProZ.com does not ignore these issues. Neither do moderators. But I'm afraid simply complaining isn't going to rectify the situation: we've had bundles of thread such as this one, but their effect on prices is zero. As we have pointed out in several threads, we're working on a redesign of the Jobs Area which is going to help outsourcers and providers fulfilling certain standards to meet on-site.

No, Ralf, I am not drunk; and not screaming at all!

Who said you were drunk??

I am just rising an issue that need to be dealt with in the most orderly and convenient way.

Agreed. Asking "moderators the world over" to unite is not exactly the most efficient way to do it, IMO.

For instance, pinning any professional to a wage below the legal threshold, a 0.02 USD rates from any outsourcer and any job is de facto illegal in the New York state.

Who is pinning anyone to a rate? Who forces you to accept that price? I agree the price offered is ridicolous, but that's an offer - if you don't like it (which I can wholeheartedly understand), don't take it.

Indeed, the US law forbid the fixing of goods' price but DOES provide a social security protection for wage earner, particularly as far as New York state is concerned. I have been lawfully working (J-1 Visa Status from INS) in the USA for three months; namely: in New York city and in Atlantic city. And there were sound low wages threshold: 5.14 USD in Atlantic City and 6.14 USD in New York.
Wages below these amount were respectively illegal in New Jersey and New York states.

A wage would necessitate some form of employment - I'm not a lawyer, but I find it difficult to construct an employer/employee relationship between ProZ.com and freelancers (who are, by definition, independent entrepreneuers as opposed to employees).

Such tawdry jobs need to be washed off Proz, not tolerated! It is a matter of principle, of honour if you want or, better, it is all about dignity and professionality! A job offer for 0.02 USD per word is an unsettling and unbearable slap, such that cannot be allowed at all!

As I said, the issue of minimum prices was discussed over and over again in these forums - leaving legal issues aside, the question is if and how such a rule would work in the first place? Do you really think an outsourcer is going to raise the price just because ProZ.com is going to tell him/her so? Also, if someone offers a job, and someone else is willing to do the job, at the price quoted, who are we to step in and say: "You cannot do that?" At what price level?

As a first step, ProZ.com has implemented a rates system to avoid sending out notifications of low-price jobs to site members - but I'm sure you're aware of that. We're working on other measures, however, our first priority was the Blue Board. Thanks for your patience.

Best regards, Ralf
As the Platinum members are the richest...it it more easy to choose them not to paid them after...


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Narasimhan Raghavan  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:42
English to Tamil
+ ...
I beg to differ Giuliana Aug 4, 2003

Proz.com is insisting time and again that it is the choice of the outsourcer to restrict a job to platinum members in the initial period. No quarrel with it if it were 100% so. It is not. Let me explain. The poster of a potential job is offered a default setting restricting the job offer to platinum members and curiously, this is in English only, even in the French and German versions of the website.
Let me be very clear. Proz com is fully justified in preferring platinum members to non-paying members. It is fully understandable. But then why don't you call a spade a spade. Why should one go on saying that it is the choice of the poster only. If that were so, change the default or don't give any default setting but just give the options and make the field mandatory. Last but not least give the options in the respective languages and not just in English. Then you can talk of posters' free choice. I know what I am talking about. In one of the jobs meant to be carried out free of cost, this platinum business cropped up. I raised this in another thread and then only the default business came out. As for the option being only in English, I have to rely on what I saw a few weeks back. Now I am unable to access the French or German version of Proz.com, as I am not seeing the releveant button for the same.

Giuliana Buscaglione wrote:

Hi Francesco,

Nobody has ever said that Platinum members are more qualified than non-Platinum. They are only *paying members*.

And then, it is a choice made by the job poster whether to offer her/his job to all members or to Platinum only.

Giuliana



[Edited at 2003-08-02 07:44]


[Edited at 2003-09-21 09:09]


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Francesco Barbuto  Identity Verified
Local time: 13:12
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Editing... Aug 4, 2003

ALKVW,

your post needs, definitely, some editing!



Ralf,
I'm afraid but, however wise and shrewd your reply, I cannot help thinking the presence of tawdry rates is, SIMPLY, an unbereable insult.
I'm not arguing out of personal concern since, other than translating with BEST clients and agency I do as well work as a copywriter for a leading Italian ICT publisher and have no imployment or other concern.
I am only speaking out of dignity and indignation: Proz CANNOT allow villain outsourcers on its web site!


Regards,

FFB

[Edited at 2003-08-20 11:14]


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xxxIreneN
United States
Local time: 06:12
English to Russian
+ ...
Let's see if I am getting the point here Aug 19, 2003

Francesco, would I be correct to rephrase your question this way - does Proz just reflect and follow the market tendency to lower rates and there is nothing that can be done since we live in a free-enterprise world, which has no "electronic borders", or does it help to create or promote the same tendency in any way by not setting the low limits and welcoming 2-cent employers and employees equally caring for the quality? I assume I am balancing on the verge of crossing certain legal and ethical limits here so I shall just say it in a form of sharing my thoughts - the only real statistics indicator truly answering this question would be to know what kind of rates bring tons of work from Proz and, obviously, the opposite - how "fattening" Proz is for those who refuse to give in. Say, in groups of 2-6, 7-11, and 12 and up (US or eurocents, does not matter:)) I do not believe this statistics parameter can, will or even should be made available, but it would be the only real one. Am I being too frank or unethical? If so, I apologize. Let's say I think about my retirement - in most professions people get more money as they progress or can enjoy twice more free time making the same money. With our profession things seem to go the opposite way - we just might be looking into the prospective need to catch up by working longer hours for lesser rates. I do not appreciate the opportunity, do you? Or, maybe the future lies in CAT tools?

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Montefiore  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:12
Member (2002)
English to Russian
+ ...
In Support of Irene's Question and in Addition to It Aug 19, 2003

I have the same, perhaps, rhetorical question - whether ProzCom is, somehow, inviting those businesses who want to get professional service for next to nothing, or is it a reflection of the legitimate market trend? I personally am inclined to think that the former is truer than the latter, although the market is getting difficult in this world, no question about it.

The real harm, in my view, from allowing those low-ballers to get on this site AND hire those who are willing to work for next to nothing, is the fact that this is a global medium, and that a site like this one may create a resonance, an impression in public: the false impression that our goose is cooked, so to speak, and that from now on we should not request to be paid as we deserve - as talented, well trained, experienced professionals with decades of formal education. The impression among the potential employers, even a certainty, that it's OK to pay us much LESS than to a garbage man, (and I respect garbage men, we need them), and deny us benefits, retirement, and/or breaks during the conferences. I often say, in a jocose manner, that we are the second oldest profession - we agree to do everything that the client tells us to do in advance, and we agree to the pay offered. We never know where the next client will come from, and we are supposed to keep the information about our clients confidential. When will we be able to change our "job description" imposed by others, through establishing some boundaries? And one of those boundaries should be the appropriate minimum rates.

That's all.

[Edited at 2003-08-19 22:07]


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