| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Yet another rate rant, with a twist Thread poster: Madeleine MacRae Klintebo
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jyuan_us 
United States
Local time: 23:39
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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Phil Hand wrote:
I am utterly bemused by the idea that any person who speaks my language would not know I was joking.
I immediately cought your sense of joking although I'm not native in your language, (not even American English ).
Some time when a girl say you bad, it really means you are great. This is universal to any language, from Greek to Chinese, or from Arabic to Zulu ( or from A-ian to Z-nese, if more appropriate).
[/quote] [/quote]
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 05:39
Spanish to English
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| Two legs bad | Nov 17, 2011 |
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
I’m pretty fed up with seeing professional business owners, also know as freelance ... many totally appeared to ignore the fact that they are the vendor, i.e. the person/business that sets the price. ... but you can refrain from supplying your product/service to such a prospect.
If your prospect refuses your price, they can go elsewhere ...
Finally, please stop thinking in rates per words, lines or pages. You supply a service which takes X amount of hours to perform – charge for these hours.
Well, I’m fed up with being described as a "professional business owner/person", since I consider myself a freelance translator yet still quite unprofessional in my attitudes and behaviour to it all and somehow a breed apart, insofar as filthy lucre and "business" are not the be-all and end-all for me, and I resent being pigeonholed in this arbitrary manner. Four legs not always good.
It is true that you can set your own price and stick to it, but what about regular clients, who you enjoy working for, who pay on time? What if they ask for a discount? I prefer to keep them on rather than dump them for the sake of a cent or fractions thereof.
(Slightly off-topic: I had to laugh at a profile I read the other day, which basically told potential clients to sod off unless they had lots of cash to spend. The poster was charging 3 times my own rate before even deigning to consider any job offers! I suppose it works for them, like the store in Australia recently in the news for saying similarly insulting things to potential customers ).
The assumption that charging per word/page/line etc does not equate to an hourly rate is also misleading. It doesn't take an expert number cruncher to make an hourly rate and word rate correspond (in fact I'm doing it right now). For example, for revising (call it proofing if you like but leave me out of the debate) texts, I charge either a word rate or an hourly rate. If it takes me 2 hours, I bill 2 hours. If the word count takes it to over that, I'll bill whichever I think most appropriate. (I'd normally insert "simples" here but some might get annoyed).
Finally, whingeing about X or Y agency demanding x or y rate or below the acceptable standard is a great way to let off steam, even if you don't believe that a large number of agencies, especially the ones springing up like mushrooms recently, are systematically taking liberties. It's like the old dog joke: (they do it because they can).
| | | | MariyaN (X)
United States
Japanese to Russian
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Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
I mentioned this amount to my boss – non-translator but very aware of the importance of correct writing + he’s the only one in the company that I allow to proofread my translations and original copy – and although I can’t remember his exact words they were along the lines of: you translators are cheap.
If this is the twist the topicstarter mentioned in the topic of the thread, it is interesting indeed - being somewhat new (at least, to me), it actually brings me to the same conclusion as most of other rates rants here: the main reason for a translator to be turned down by a translation agency is still his/her rate, not being not qualified for the job.
| | | | Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 23:39
Member (2011)
English to German
| Ironic Smiley | Nov 17, 2011 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
Is there actually an ironic smiley - i.e. one where the mouth smiles but the eyes don't? Or one with a slightly twisted smile? If so, I need it. (British humour intended).
Jenny ☺☻ (No, not those).
Hi Jenny,
is this the kind of smiley you are looking for?
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Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 23:39
Member (2011)
English to German
| Generalization | Nov 17, 2011 |
Woodstock wrote:
If your question was serious (a bit difficult to tell what is or isn't serious in this thread), the answer is "generalization" / infinitive: "to generalize".
Oh yes, my question was serious. Thank you for providing me with the correct term. That was exactly what I had in mind, but couldn't think of after having read the initial post.
Personally, I tend not to get involved in these rates discussions, just read them occasionally to see if anything has changed, see that it hasn't, say "tsk tsk" to myself about the greedy agencies who are interested only in quantity and don't appreciate quality work, and move on.
Well, to read about this subject in a forum is one thing, but to actually be involved is another. For me, it becomes really difficult to ignore these kinds of statements and do them off with a "tsk tsk". Example: I just recently wrote a quotation for a technical text of 1,300 words to be translated from English into German. I quoted 0.12 $, which is in my opinion rather low. Normally I don't receive an answer if the price doesn't fit, but this guy wrote back that he didn't intend to pay more than a total of 20.00 $. Now, that is what I call a slap in the face!
It's been that way since I got here 6 years ago and will probably continue long after I'm gone.
Wow, already so long...
I also get plenty of unsolicited offers via the ProZ directories, but most of them are not acceptable, so I write a polite "Thanks, but no thanks unless you can meet my rate requirements", end of story.
Indeed, that is very polite of you.
Getting all worked up about it either way consumes time and energy needlessly, so after adding my 2 cents here, I'm going back to my rather large, decently-paid translation assignment without having raised my blood pressure.
Writing a quotation over 156.00 $, just to receive a counteroffer over 20.00 $, gets ME all worked up.
[Edited at 2011-11-17 20:52 GMT]
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Marina Steinbach wrote: Jenny Forbes wrote:
Is there actually an ironic smiley - i.e. one where the mouth smiles but the eyes don't? Or one with a slightly twisted smile? If so, I need it. (British humour intended).
Jenny ☺☻ (No, not those). Hi Jenny, is this the kind of smiley you are looking for?
Thanks, Marina. Yes, that looks like the smiley I'm looking for. How do I achieve it? I mean, which combination of keys?
Kind regards,
Jenny
| | | | Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 23:39
Member (2011)
English to German
| You're welcome! | Nov 17, 2011 |
Jenny Forbes wrote:
Yes, that looks like the smiley I'm looking for. How do I achieve it?
To add this smiley within your text message, just encase the URL of the graphic image with the BBCode [img]. In this case:
[ img ]http://www.forumup.de/images/smiles/aiwebs_014.gif[ /img ]
I have filled in blanks within the square brackets to make the BBCode visible. Otherwise you would only see the image.
Does this make sense? It's kind of difficult to explain...
[Edited at 2011-11-17 20:51 GMT]
| | | | | A few responses | Nov 17, 2011 |
Somewhat disappointed seeing where this thread has headed. I’ve been working from home today over the VPN hearing plings in the background every time someone has responded to this thread. Being conscious that my employer pays me quite well for my time, I have refrained from reading any postings until tonight when this activity will only affect my own bank balance.
I don’t mind the thread having gone somewhat off-topic, I generally like threads that do, but am surprised at how fe... See more Somewhat disappointed seeing where this thread has headed. I’ve been working from home today over the VPN hearing plings in the background every time someone has responded to this thread. Being conscious that my employer pays me quite well for my time, I have refrained from reading any postings until tonight when this activity will only affect my own bank balance.
I don’t mind the thread having gone somewhat off-topic, I generally like threads that do, but am surprised at how few freelancers are prepared to stand up for the value of their work/time.
@Riccardo – you and Mox really do get what it’s all about .
@Marina – don’t get what “Pauschalisierung” (thanks for the translation Woodstock”) has to do with anything in my original posting. Or maybe this is German humor that I don’t get?
@jyuan_us – you are aware that “bad” is nowadays a positive modifier, at least for young(ish) people. Same as we’ve for ages have said “skitgod” (shit tasty) in Swedish to indicate that something tastes very good. Anyway, or anyroad as they say in Yorkshire (I believe), what has that got to do with us here over the pond not getting Phil’s US irony?
@Neil – if you don’t want to consider yourself a professional business owner that’s your business (please excuse the term/pun). If you’re able to make a decent living being “quite unprofessional in my attitudes and behaviour”, I take my hat off to you.
neilmac wrote: Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
If your prospect refuses your price, they can go elsewhere ...
It is true that you can set your own price and stick to it, but what about regular clients, who you enjoy working for, who pay on time? What if they ask for a discount? I prefer to keep them on rather than dump them for the sake of a cent or fractions thereof.
Your choice, if they make your life easier without putting you in penury – go ahead. But I wasn’t referring to “a cent or fractions thereof”.
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
Finally, please stop thinking in rates per words, lines or pages. You supply a service which takes X amount of hours to perform – charge for these hours. The assumption that charging per word/page/line etc does not equate to an hourly rate is also misleading.
Did you actually read what I wrote? I did not say “stop CHARGING“ per words, lines, millimetres… The verb I used was “THINKING”. Of course you can, and in many cases this would be the most convenient method, charge per word, etc. But you should be THINKING in hours, i.e. your time.
[Edited at 2011-11-17 20:11 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 23:39
Member (2011)
English to German
| German Humor? | Nov 17, 2011 |
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
@Marina – don’t get what “Pauschalisierung” (thanks for the translation Woodstock”) has to do with anything in my original posting. Or maybe this is German humor that I don’t get?
Nope...
| | | | | Don't give the credit to me | Nov 17, 2011 |
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
@Riccardo – you and Mox really do get what it’s all about .
Credit to where credit is due: to Alejandro Moreno-Ramos (Mox's creator), and his Mox's Blog strip
| | | | | Low rates again | Nov 17, 2011 |
I don't think there is anything wrong with highlighting the low rates which some agencies are trying to pay. I don't think this is negative and surely it is better to try and understand trends in the translation industry rather than be ignorant of them, however much we ourselves are charging.
I see Madeleine's point though. Perhaps some of us are selling ourselves too cheaply and under estimate how important our work can be for companies. However, translation as an industry is not like den... See more I don't think there is anything wrong with highlighting the low rates which some agencies are trying to pay. I don't think this is negative and surely it is better to try and understand trends in the translation industry rather than be ignorant of them, however much we ourselves are charging.
I see Madeleine's point though. Perhaps some of us are selling ourselves too cheaply and under estimate how important our work can be for companies. However, translation as an industry is not like dentistry, for example, where similar services are provided by professionals who have been trained to the same standard with customers who want the same things and are prepared to pay the going rate.
Translators themselves are a varied bunch. Some work full-time, others work part-time, some see themselves as business owners, others work to keep their minds active in retirement. Some are supporting families; some are trying to get into the industry with no qualifications and experience. These varied types of translators may all have different priorities and differing views on what rates they will work for.
Companies commissioning translating projects are also very diverse and likely to view translation services very differently. I imagine the big bucks can be made in the advertising/marketing, financial and legal sectors. People in advertising/marketing/corporate communications understand how important the written word is and are happy to pay a decent rate for quality. The financial and legal sectors tend to have a lot of money sloshing around, so I'm sure there is good money to be made there also.
However, companies in the industrial sector would not want to spend too much money on a set of specifications that need to be translated just to comply with standards, so will not view the translation of certain documents with the same importance as a company which is trying to sell its products or services to another country. Cconsequently, they will necessarily be prepared to allocate the same budget to translating such documents.
So, all am trying to say in my long ramble is: translation is a varied activity serving a wide variety of very different sectors. Prices will vary accordingly and translators have to be flexible to some extent and accept this. I view every job in its own light and I am prepared to reduce or raise my rates accordingly. This does not in any mean one should accept work at sub-standard rates though, and I never do. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Getting everyone else | Nov 17, 2011 |
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
I’m pretty fed up with seeing professional business owners, also know as freelance translators, moaning about X or Y agency demanding x or y rate or below. ... Fair enough, you can’t force someone to buy from you unless you have a monopoly selling an essential product/service, but you can refrain from supplying your product/service to such a prospect. ... If your prospect refuses your price, they can go elsewhere ... But as long as you have a business like approach and know that you can deliver a quality product you will eventually succeed. ...
- - - -
... but am surprised at how few freelancers are prepared to stand up for the value of their work/time.
Madeleine, I really sympathize with the point you are trying to make, I do - but I can't help but wonder if you really "get" the posts and rants you have found online like the one you referenced in the original post.
I don't normally participate in those rants, for one reason because I generally follow the "advice" you prescribe and don't have a perpetual need to chime in. But I've also been in this business for over 10 years and I know I won't go broke overnight.
The translation environment has gotten tougher for freelancers over the years, and a lot of what you've written simply must be taken with a grain of salt. I can tell you that despite my qualifications, experience, references and absolutely thrilled clients, I hardly ever receive new offers to collaborate that I can accept. Very few. I know a few colleagues that charge what I charge or more - but again, very few.
The reality is that many are working for less, but to infer that they don't value themselves or stand up for that value because of that is a bit of an oversimplification. Prospects can and do "go elsewhere".
The globalization of the market has created more supply than demand in many areas, albeit not necessarily a *quality* supply. That pushes prices down, everywhere. And clients aren't necessarily looking for quality (horrifying, I know).
What people on Proz.com tend to rant about are not only low rates, but low rates being offered via (and with the de facto assistance of) a prominent platform for translation services. People see this as dumping, and are here to report that the offers they receive - appear - to be influenced by this direct, publicly visible pressure on rates.
Yes, it would be great if we could all get second jobs and just stick to our guns until we find enough of those rare client that appreciate quality and thoroughness and reward us with the commensurate rates we demand. It happens.
But many people fear it is not happening often enough, and that in fact, such clients are disappearing altogether in the wake of globalization and "cheap" translators claiming to produce the same quality.
Because of rate issues, I am lucky to accept 1 out of every 15 (or more) project/collaboration inquiries I receive. And this despite the fact of my "lucky" language pair (German>English) - lucky because many of the clients are actually in Germany, a region not suffering quite as strongly from negative economic factors as other areas.
I rarely if ever work with clients in other countries, because generally speaking they claim to be unable to pay the rates I believe I deserve ... so I can't *imagine* the rates that translators who work in other language pairs (who deal mainly with clients in those other countries) are forced to contend with on a daily basis.
Yes, we can all go out and get second jobs and wait.
But how long do we wait until the second job really becomes the first job after all...
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Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 23:39
Member (2011)
English to German
| Generalizations | Nov 18, 2011 |
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
I’m pretty fed up with seeing professional business owners, also know as freelance translators, moaning about X or Y agency demanding x or y rate or below. For example, in this thread where many who totally appeared to ignore the fact that they are the vendor, i.e. the person/business that sets the price.
You seem to like making generalizations and thinking in categories. "Freelance translators", "vendors", "persons" and "businesses" are for you altogether "professional business owners". This is the drawer you have chosen to put all of those individuals, who are not satisfied with the price they are receiving for their (sometimes) hard work, which is often also expected to be performed in a (mad) rush. It’s not only the lack of money that people are moaning about; it’s also the lack of appreciation.
Furthermore, to say that you’re "fed up" with those, who complain, is in my opinion very rude.
If your prospect refuses your price, they can go elsewhere and get what they pay for and you can find clients who actually value quality translations. Might take a bit of time and if you’re at the beginning of your translation career this might be painful (this is why you should not go freelance without first building up X amount of savings – for me X represents at least 6 months expenditure). But as long as you have a business like approach and know that you can deliver a quality product you will eventually succeed.
Well, but sometimes life just isn’t that easy. Earning the amount of money you think you deserve or being able to do without for six months, is not really a gauge for measuring success…
Until you get there, you might have to supplement your income with other activities – ever heard of the jobbing actor?
No, I haven’t. Please be so kind as to explain.
My in-house company, not an agency, recently needed a short translation into a language we do not currently work with (agencies please stop reading here**). I searched through the directories here at ProZ and found 2-3 possible candidates. After outsourcing to one of them, I requested a PO from accounts and instantly got an email from them querying the low amount – only two figures!
Well, you’re right here. One should charge a minimum pay of e.g. 100.00 $. It doesn’t make sense to translate for less and pay on top of that PayPal, bank or other fees.
Then we needed another even shorter translation so I contacted the same translator and he came up with an even lower quote, i.e. fewer words. I mentioned this amount to my boss – non-translator but very aware of the importance of correct writing + he’s the only one in the company that I allow to proofread my translations and original copy – and although I can’t remember his exact words they were along the lines of: you translators are cheap.
WE TRANSLATORS are cheap? Your boss likes to generalize too, hmm?
Please note that the translator I found was anything but cheap compared to what I see people here at ProZ publically mentioning that they accept – he almost charged as much as I would have done.
He really was as cheap as we here at ProZ? How much would you have charged?
End of story.
Okey-dokey!
Finally, please stop thinking in rates per words, lines or pages.
I think neither in lines, nor in pages. Madeleine, please stop thinking in these kinds of drawers, into which you would like to fit the rest of the world.
*also a current part-time, previous full-time, and possibly future, freelancer
Oh dear, now I also have to stuff current part-time, previous full-time, and possibly future freelancers into the above mentioned drawer…
**don’t contact me, we have fully competent translators in-house for the languages we normally work with and I don’t need any more time-consuming sales calls
Don’t worry. I won’t.
PS. Excuse the long posting, but I now have to have my postings vetted again so try to get all my responses to what might come later into the first posting to ensure there's only one time-delayed posting.
If you hadn’t told me in your private mail that you don’t get me, I wouldn’t have bothered to answer here. Excuse me, Madeleine, but I've got a final question:
How do you cope with people, who are unique?
| | | | kmtext
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:39
English
+ ...
| I'm pretty lucky | Nov 18, 2011 |
I work in quite a niche market - joys of minority languages - so I don't have too much competition, although that's starting to change now, and my competitors are churning out pretty low-quality work for low rates. A lot of the vendors don't really care about the quality of the translation, because, in most cases, they're only providing translations because they're legally obliged to, so they're happy to pay peanuts just so they can tick the boxes.
However, I do have a number of reg... See more I work in quite a niche market - joys of minority languages - so I don't have too much competition, although that's starting to change now, and my competitors are churning out pretty low-quality work for low rates. A lot of the vendors don't really care about the quality of the translation, because, in most cases, they're only providing translations because they're legally obliged to, so they're happy to pay peanuts just so they can tick the boxes.
However, I do have a number of regular clients who appreciate the service I provide and are willing to pay my rates. I actually increased them earlier this year after consulting my regulars and I was surprised when one told me I should be charging even more! (And I was worried that I might lose them.)
The thing is, if it weren't for my regular clients, I'd probably have to go down the low-rate route myself, or get out of the industry entirely (which would be my preferred option if it came to it). I often get queries from agencies, usually along the lines of, "Will you translate this 5,000 word document for £50?" I reply politely and give them a quote based on my rates. I often don't get a response, or occasionally, they reply to say my rates are too high and they're going with a lower quote from someone else. Now, I've had quite a few of them come back to me at a later date to ask me to read through the text they've paid someone else a minimal fee to translate because their client has received complaints about it. Some of them have been so bad that my seven-year-old nephew could have done a better job.
I'd say the main problem is that many vendors don't really value the contribution a good-quality translation can make to their business, and agencies are more than happy to cater for them. The other problem is that there are quite a few translators who are willing to translate for low rates, and a lot of them aren't very good at what they do. That's not to say that everyone who charges a low rate does a poor job - or that everyone who charges a fortune produces quality work. I've seen some fantastic work by a retired secretary who translates for fun and to supplement her pension, and some appalling translations by language graduates who charge more than I do.
Perhaps I should take my client's advice and increase my rates again next year! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 04:39
Flemish to English
+ ...
| Real professionals have a clear-cut picture of what they ask as fee | Nov 18, 2011 |
My lawyer asks 75 euros per hour+ 20 euros to write a letter.
My dentist asks 65 per 20 minutes-25 minutes, that is the time he needs to fill up a tooth. He sees to it that in one hour he has two to three patients.
A conference-interpreter earns 81.2 euros an hour (calculation based upon a day's rate of 650 euros) without any discounts whatsoever. As said in the beginning, why don't we set our rates per hour. This would give a clearer picture of what a translator earns.
It wou... See more My lawyer asks 75 euros per hour+ 20 euros to write a letter.
My dentist asks 65 per 20 minutes-25 minutes, that is the time he needs to fill up a tooth. He sees to it that in one hour he has two to three patients.
A conference-interpreter earns 81.2 euros an hour (calculation based upon a day's rate of 650 euros) without any discounts whatsoever. As said in the beginning, why don't we set our rates per hour. This would give a clearer picture of what a translator earns.
It would also make it easier to ask (partial) upfront payment.
[Edited at 2011-11-18 09:03 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-11-18 09:04 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Yet another rate rant, with a twist | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
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