| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Are rates getting even poorer? Thread poster: Dave Greatrix
|
|---|
Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 02:13
English to Russian
| CAT marketing departments | May 31, 2004 |
One client of mine, a rather good one I thought, is not willing to pay for full matches anymore
This is so stupid, I am lost for words. Imagine you hire a worker to lay tiles in your bathroom, and pay him for one tile because the rest are 100% matches! Sounds idiotic, but that's the exact approach of some agencies and is doing a lot of harm to entire translation community. I only hope the tide will turn before it's too late.
BTW, this has not taken root in Russia. Yet.
| | | | Valeria Verona 
Chile
Local time: 19:13
Member (2003)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Aleksandr Okunev wrote: "Our rate is 0.02 EUR per Word. ..." no comment When I am going to update my web page I *will* include there a nice slogan (some pals strongly advise me not to). My translations are: 1. --- FAST 2. --- CHEAP 3. --- ACCURATE PLEASE, CHOOSE ANY TWO ITEMS! Cheers 
I totally agree with you!
| | | | | Recommended minimum rates? | May 31, 2004 |
If proz is unable to impose minimum rates because of Californian/American law etc., surely it could suggest minimum rate for translation jobs? For example, every job posted with a rate of, say, less than 5 cents a word could have a notice at the bottom saying: "Please note that this rate is below the recommended proz minimum rate of 5 cents per word". No agency would want people this kind of negative announcement attached to its name, and people would think twice before applying for the job in ... See more If proz is unable to impose minimum rates because of Californian/American law etc., surely it could suggest minimum rate for translation jobs? For example, every job posted with a rate of, say, less than 5 cents a word could have a notice at the bottom saying: "Please note that this rate is below the recommended proz minimum rate of 5 cents per word". No agency would want people this kind of negative announcement attached to its name, and people would think twice before applying for the job in question.
If nothing is done, then proz will just continue to be a price dumpers' paradise and we will all be the worse off for it.... ▲ Collapse
| | | | ajali
United States
Local time: 18:13
Malay to English
+ ...
| Potential Marketplace Joke | May 31, 2004 |
johnduke wrote:
If proz is unable to impose minimum rates because of Californian/American law etc., surely it could suggest minimum rate for translation jobs? For example, every job posted with a rate of, say, less than 5 cents a word could have a notice at the bottom saying: "Please note that this rate is below the recommended proz minimum rate of 5 cents per word". No agency would want people this kind of negative announcement attached to its name, and people would think twice before applying for the job in question.
If nothing is done, then proz will just continue to be a price dumpers' paradise and we will all be the worse off for it....
Point well said. Proz.com should take this suggestion into consideration or run the risk to be a potential marketplace joke in the long run.
The strength of Proz is the interative nature of the website and its creativity over its competitors. That strength can only be achieve through members participation. Without members participation or input, it hard to imagine, Proz will continue to be the best and most creative translators website in the world.
Its about time for Proz to think about this issue seriously. Even WTO, the world biggest trade organization have some basic rules and guideline for its members. Its about time Proz do the same.
Abdul Jalil Ali
| | |
|
|
|
00000000 (X)
English to French
+ ...
| DV and Trados for $3 USD | May 31, 2004 |
Aleksandr Okunev wrote:
CD with latest DV and Trados is 3USD [...][/quote]
Are you serious? How can we order?
TIA,
Esther
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 01:13
English to German
+ ...
| No discussion of illegal software copies, please | May 31, 2004 |
Thanks for not going into any details regarding "cracked" software.
Ralf
| | | | | Dear Henry, have you considered charging the outsourcers for the job postings? | Jun 1, 2004 |
If a person has to advertise in a newspaper for recruiting another person, he has to pay the rates for the same. The applicants read the advertisements and apply and they don't pay any charges.
But here in Proz the situation seems to be the reverse. For a person to get to quote early for a job, he has to be a platinum member and pay good money for it, whereas the outsourcer does not shell out any money and is making merry with ridiculous offers. Why don't you make them pay? This su... See more If a person has to advertise in a newspaper for recruiting another person, he has to pay the rates for the same. The applicants read the advertisements and apply and they don't pay any charges.
But here in Proz the situation seems to be the reverse. For a person to get to quote early for a job, he has to be a platinum member and pay good money for it, whereas the outsourcer does not shell out any money and is making merry with ridiculous offers. Why don't you make them pay? This suggestion was given out very much earlier in Translation_proz. Though it is a portal run by a person with a bee in his bonnet for anything concerning Proz, I nevertheless consider this suggestion to be with merit.
Charging the outsourcers for their notice inviting offers will drive away the non-serious among them. Further, if they pay by credit card or by something else, they will have to give their full coordinates. I don't think anyone can fault Proz for taking this step. In the bargain, you can also reserve your right to reject any job postings not meeting your approval regarding transparency. And if you refuse postings with rates below a threshold level, who is to obejct? In short, make it difficult for the fly-by-night operators.
Regards,
N.Raghavan ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dave Greatrix
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:13
Dutch to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Excellent Idea | Jun 1, 2004 |
Narasimhan Raghavan wrote:
Charging the outsourcers for their notice inviting offers will drive away the non-serious among them. Further, if they pay by credit card or by something else, they will have to give their full coordinates. I don't think anyone can fault Proz for taking this step. In the bargain, you can also reserve your right to reject any job postings not meeting your approval regarding transparency. And if you refuse postings with rates below a threshold level, who is to obejct? In short, make it difficult for the fly-by-night operators.
Regards,
N.Raghavan
I wonder how many "agencies" spend ther time scouring the Internet and other media for "potential" translation projects.
They then line up a load of translators that are prepared to work for next to nothing tempted by the promise of on-going work. (I've heard all that before in my years in the construction industry) Bingo! They secure a large well-paid project, have very little overheads and laugh all the way to the bank.
I know that it makes perfect sense to line up a team before offering to carry out a large project, but it all depends on the ethics observed IMHO.
Call me cynical if you will, but it does seem to be more common of late for job postings to carry the qualification "potential"
Consider the following scenario:
David Greatrix, or any other known member suddenly posts a job on ProZ.
"1,000,000 word translation (in a language pair totally foreign to the poster).
Rate: 0.001 Euro per word, but you'll get a lot of work in the future."
There would be absolute uproar in the forums. So why not when these ridiculous job offers are posted by strangers?
I'm trying to think of other industries where the wages are going DOWN. I'll probably be some time.
And I hope nobody comes with that argument - "Yes, but now we use CAT".
Plumbers have started using a system called SpeedFit for joining pipes. This system reduces actual installation costs of pipework by more than 40%. However, they have not lowered their installation charges.
[Edited at 2004-06-01 07:27]
[Edited at 2004-06-01 08:01]
[Edited at 2004-06-01 08:03]
| | |
|
|
|
Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 02:13
English to Russian
| Let's go plumbers :) | Jun 1, 2004 |
I'm trying to think of other industries where the wages are going DOWN. Plumbers have started using a system called SpeedFit for joining pipes. This system reduces actual installation costs of pipework by more than 40%. However, they have not lowered their installation charges.
I used to be a sales manager at an apparel factory and still have a lot of bookmarks. Recently I came across a report by a **very** highly reputed US company which claims that Bulgarian market is not promissing at all, owing to *very high wages*. I know the exact figure. It's 120 old Deutsche Mark. They call it high. There is a factory in my town, stitching orders for very famous brands, even among 'haute couture', the factory is called 'the mine' in the town. I also saw quite a few things in Pakistan, and you can come up with many examples. The tools and equipment at the factories are very sophisticated and expensive.
The thing is: there is a whole branch of industry on this planet, which is based on slavery. Plumbers are luckier ones. Which way will translation turn? Plumbers, I hope.
Sorry if I sound a bit rough. I guess the problems in translation business are just a reflection of other bigger problems.
| | | | Joseph Samir
Egypt
Local time: 01:13
English to Arabic
+ ...
| Please don't read .. | Jun 1, 2004 |
.. if can be easily exposed to Heart-Attacks or high pressure .
I have been reading most of your comments and really I enjoyed it so much specially these comments which was full of irony ( Aleksandr , I liked your new slogan soooo much ) ..
Anyway , I have decided to share you with some amazing facts that I have faced in my Country ( Egypt ) .. We have a proverb here that says : ( These who watch others' troubles , will know how small are theirs ) so I hope that through what ... See more .. if can be easily exposed to Heart-Attacks or high pressure .
I have been reading most of your comments and really I enjoyed it so much specially these comments which was full of irony ( Aleksandr , I liked your new slogan soooo much ) ..
Anyway , I have decided to share you with some amazing facts that I have faced in my Country ( Egypt ) .. We have a proverb here that says : ( These who watch others' troubles , will know how small are theirs ) so I hope that through what I am going to say , I will be able to make you feel better ..
One of the companies here has asked me to do a job for it , and has offered me - are you ready to hear that ??! - 1 L.E. per page ( One Egyptian Pound ) .. I was about to faint but he tried to follow with the privileges he has for me , he said quickly : " .. But This is a continuous job , Joseph " ..Ohh my God ..
Three days later , when I woke up in the Intensive Care room I returned back to my work , trying to forget about this incident .. LOL
Anyway , let me calculate the rate per word :
1 page = 100 Piasters ( I thought writing it in piasters "100" will mitigate the tension that appears on your faces )
1 page ( here in Egypt ) will not be less than 350
So , rate per word = 0.00285 LE
In USD it will be " 4.5934772622875516766192007349564e-4 / word "
Guys , we are going back to an old era .. I won't be surprised to find some client calling me for a job and offering me an egg and a loaf of bread .
May God help us all
Yours ,
Joseph Samir
Cairo , Egypt ▲ Collapse
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 02:13
English to Russian
| Visors up, outsourcers! :) | Jun 1, 2004 |
Why don't you make them pay?
N.Raghavan
I am quite skeptical about outsourcers paying for job posting. One practical step, IMHO, could be to have their identity verified. In Russia there are quite a few so-called agencies which change their name, email etc. with every project. Of course, after that the forums are full of screaming and roaring, but they manage to do it over and over again. However, if your identity is verified: your real name, phone numbers and other personal details are available to translators, you are less flexible in changing disguises. I am even prepared to pay more for my membership in order to have a clearer picture of what my client really is (I paid almost entirely for being able to access the blue board). A kind of this system is implemented at www.elance.com, although they have some drawbacks too. When you come up with meager rates all the time, the image will stick to your *verified* identity and your job postings, paid or free, will be ignored by folks who provide decent quality. If agency search by identity factors is implemented at Proz, this, I believe, could boost outsourcer quality. Even starter agencies will have to make their choice at the beginning, as *translators do*: we invest in hardware, CAT, have ourselves registered with the damn IRS, etc., knowing absolutely nothing what the future will bring. As a newbie I can point you to what struck me most in the blue board: A very good 5-star agency is the simply one which did pay for the work (!) Feedback, some terminology assistance, decent treatment take you to heaven, above any blue board rating (?)
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 01:13
English to German
+ ...
| That's exactly what we're working on | Jun 1, 2004 |
Good point, Aleksandr - in fact, initial steps to "get the visors up" have already been taken.
One practical step, IMHO, could be to have their identity verified.
Jason at ProZ.com is already working on that. Given that it involves some rather fundamental changes to the way the ProZ.com database is structured, it takes some more development time. As a first step, a connection was established between BlueBoard records and one or several (personal) profiles.
However, if your identity is verified: your real name, phone numbers and other personal details are available to translators, you are less flexible in changing disguises.
That is why full address details are required when posting jobs - any postings lacking details, or containing details which are obviously incorrect, are being rejected (unless the details are in the BlueBoard, of course, or openly available on the job poster's website, in which case we'll use them to update the BB entry if necessary).
Best regards, Ralf
| | |
|
|
|
Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 02:13
English to Russian
| BB entry should be structured | Jun 2, 2004 |
... BlueBoard ...
Best regards, Ralf
So far what I saw on BB is nice/bad, pays/does not.
If Proz analysed translators' complaints about agencies and introduce tick boxes in BB entry, this would help both the translators to see what kind of agency this is and for the agencies (most of them are really nice busy people, aren't they) to improve.
This could be like this:
Feedback [ ]bad [ ]good [ ]not applicable
Payment [ ]delayed [ ]timely [ ]not applicable
etc.
This could result in agency rating, similar to Kudoz rating, with best agencies shown on Proz homepage.
IMVHO...
| | | | Pablo Roufogalis (X)
Colombia
Local time: 18:13
English to Spanish
| Sweatshops/Globalization/Slaves | Jun 3, 2004 |
The thing is: there is a whole branch of industry on this planet, which is based on slavery.
I\'m sure these \'slaves\' are better off than those than are not able to get a job in the sweatshop.
\'Slave\' is a strong word, that is not a true reflection of the reality of sweatshops and the places/countries where they exist.
Poverty and lack of opportunities were there before the sweatshops.
| | | | | Globalization and Capitalism behind it | Jun 8, 2004 |
This is my first post here as I am a new member, and I actually browsed that topic only because I was interested in seeing what kind of rates would be reasonable.
As I have lived for six years of my life in Germany and most of the rest in Egypt (I am 25) I might be able to see the two different points of view and understand them well.
In Europe, a rate of 10 Euro cents might be considered alright to make a living. Lower than that will probably not be feasible. I don't ... See more This is my first post here as I am a new member, and I actually browsed that topic only because I was interested in seeing what kind of rates would be reasonable.
As I have lived for six years of my life in Germany and most of the rest in Egypt (I am 25) I might be able to see the two different points of view and understand them well.
In Europe, a rate of 10 Euro cents might be considered alright to make a living. Lower than that will probably not be feasible. I don't know how it is with taxes when working as freelancer and how accurate everyone is, but well a work that pays off a net of less than 1500 to 2000 euros a month is simply ridiculous. Translators are very well educated and need to be fluent in more than one language and different specializations, so they should be paid accordingly. Others who do much less get much more.
But now if I switch back to Egypt, and the lack of job oppertunities. It is often common to get a job as a fresh engineering graduate of 600 to 1000 Egyptian pounds a month. At a rate of 6.5 Pounds per US $ this is somewhat in the range of 100 to 150 US $. Now if you get a job in which you are paid a steady 33 Dollars a day you may find it lucrative and not a "penny"-job.
This doesn't mean that the translations will be garbage. It might be considered high-paying by the person who does the job and he will be happy to be doing it.
Now it is inevitable that ProZ, being a global community, will go through such a downward pressure on prices. But there will be soon a balance.
Why do I think that? Well, living in a developing country (I don't know why it is called like that, it doesn't develop all that much lol) I know that only very few people have the proper education to be fluent in more than one language and provide quality translations. Those who have that kind of education will probably not want to play in the lower leagues and settle for the pennies which might be lucrative in that country. It's human nature to make the best benefit of your abilities. Why get less if you can get more?
The quality of translations is getting actually very bad. Even on sites like fifaworldcup.com there are sometimes very poor texts to be found. This just gives a very unprofessional image to a company or a site.
There will always be a demand for high-quality translations, and the market will only stay lucrative if the rates are high enough. If the rates drop, so will the quality, because many high-quality translators will see no way but to switch the fields. This will cause the rise in demand and the rising of the rates once more.
Globalization opened the door to the unfair competition between the rich countries and the poor low-wage countries and the capitalists will exploit every advantage they can get.
The only way to counteract this is by providing quality and charging accordingly. Don't compete with someone who isn't in your league. A premier division team doesn't complain that a second devision cup pays off pennies, does it? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Are rates getting even poorer? | Wordfast Pro | Translation Memory Software for Any Platform
Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users!
Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value
Buy now! » |
| | Anycount & Translation Office 3000 | Translation Office 3000
Translation Office 3000 is an advanced accounting tool for freelance translators and small agencies. TO3000 easily and seamlessly integrates with the business life of professional freelance translators.
More info » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
Translation news
