Inexperienced translators / translation students beware
Jabberwock Poland Local time: 22:09 Member (2004) English to Polish
Alternatives to exploitation
Jan 21
Aurora Humarán wrote:
Have I said that? Or have I mentioned that they are paid so little that their translations can be copyedited/proofread even by two professionals without hurting the agency’s margins?
Well, if the work has to be proofread by two professionals, then it is of much lower quality, isn't it? And if the quality is lower, then it deserves lower pay, doesn't it? Besides, if two professionals apply professional rates after that, then where is the actual exploitation? (Not to mention that they are "accomplices" in the process.)
Both from IAPTI and from other associations I am a member of we are trying to solve this problem (same format does happen in other countries). We (IAPTI) have also joint forces with other associations (from different countries) and are putting together some ideas to fight this practice. Some of the plans we have are strategic and/or are in the making, others I can share, for instance, we are going to have much more presence in universities (via in person events and via webinars).
Well, presence is nice, but money is even nicer... Both the article and your posts seem to suggest that there are two alternatives: students can be paid pittance or students can be paid like regular translators. That view has little connection with reality. If the pay is the same, the client will have no need for students at all.
The actual alternatives are: students are paid badly or are not paid at all. In other words, the only way to end the exploitation is to forbid students to translate at all (in other words, regulate the market). I have a strong feeling that in that case students would prefer to be exploited, thank you very much.
[Edited at 2012-01-21 18:11 GMT]
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Alexandre Maricato Brazil Local time: 17:09 Member (2009) English to Portuguese
Rules and exceptions
Jan 21
Will Masters wrote:
Alexandre Maricato wrote:
Aurora Humarán wrote:
I have been in the industry for thirty years, and have extensively lectured in universities throughout my country (...).
Let me add that the very first result (one student's work) will not be the low level you probably have in mind. Argentine T&I Universities are known internationally because of their high academic level, so a standard 3rd or 4th year student's work will not be bad at all.
It's a complex and unfair situation.
So let's imagine a (very) hypothetical scenario where students were paid similar rates to professionals with twenty or thrity years of experience.
I could imagine a lot of people arguing about how such situation was unfair and that experienced professionals provide a much better service and deserve much higher rates.
...what about the times, all be them rare, that a student is capable of producing a translation of a similar quality to that produced by an experienced translator? It can, and does from time to time, happen and yet according to what you're saying, the same pay isn't deserved by both parties. Forgive the possible stupidity here, but how does that one work??
At the end of the day, the bottom line is this: If someone translates well, then they translate well, and should be paid accordingly - regardless whether they are a student or have years of experience. Equally, on the other side of the coin, if they can't translate for toffee and are inept, then why should they be paid more than a student, who perhaps may be able to do it better despite not having as much experience overall, just because their CV is more that bit more extensive?
Of course, there may be exceptions, where in your own words are "the times, all be them rare, that a student is capable of producing a translation of a similar quality to that produced by an experienced translator". We are discussing a general rule here, and not exceptions. And, in case someone falls into the scope of an exception, they shall be treated as such: an exception to the rule.
And I imagine it would not be easy for someone to be a) experienced b) inept. In most cases, someone inept would not stay in the market for long enough to be considered experient. Of course, as above, I not talking about possible exceptions.
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Jabberwock Poland Local time: 22:09 Member (2004) English to Polish
Exactly!
Jan 21
Will Masters wrote:
if there is a student who:
a) has never had their work professionally translated by someone else
b) wants to get into the profession
c) is capable of producing good quality work
..then why should they a) not be paid the same rate as an already established translator if the same quality is being produced, or b) not be paid at all as you suggested earlier?
Well, matching the quality is just one part... The professional translator still has some aces up his sleeve: reputation is one, accountability is another one. A student can exit the market as easily as he entered it, so there is little risk for him... He can be late, he can produce garbage, he can bring the whole big project down because he wanted to party that one day. The professional has much more to lose, therefore much more can be expected of him. So he can ask for more.
Besides, there are some things you can only pick up over the years: tools of the trade, preferred jargon, idiosyncrasies of particular fields... You will not find it in the textbooks. As Einstein said: 'In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not.'
Still, I perfectly agree with that a good translation (and a bad one!) should be paid the same, no matter who did it. But this brings us again to the free market argument - ultimately the client and the translator decide how much the work is worth to them...
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Vladimír Hoffman Slovakia Local time: 22:09 Member (2009) English to Slovak + ...
OMG!
Jan 21
It reminds me rumours from wild times in 90's about one language school combined with translation agency that tried to acquire translations in such a way. However, they were not able to compete on the market for long, quality (even under low standards of that period) was necessarily very poor (just imagine bigger technical translation divided among several students).
There are still at least two or three agencies who pay extremely low rates to their translators, which makes them a harbor (or starting point) for students and other non-professionals, but I heard that despite repeated proofreading (also for extremely low rates) every tenth translation is rejected by a client.
From the business point of view, I see little sense in hiring low-level translator and then has to pay for proofreading (a proofreader can make a lot, but can not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear) compared to hiring a professional and not being worried about quality issues.
Oksana Zoria wrote:
Will Masters wrote:
That's a good point, and situations like that should be monitored to prevent student exploitation taking place.
The fact is there is no one to monitor situations like that here. We are here in the wild-wild East Europe with practically no law at all. We do not have professional translators' association, no professional certification: there are no certified translators and the translations are certified by notaries. No law, hence no punishment. And no one cares, btw. These students' parents are actually paying for their studies, paying for exploitation of their kids.
Personally I think this practice is unacceptable. But I have seen other situations as well: when the students who are studying to be future translators bring their homework to the translation agency and pay for it to be translated. One girl was the client of local agency for 6 years in a row, bringing in a constant flow of tests, abstracts, essays. When she has finally come with her thesis to be translated into English, the director of the translation agency, out of sheer curiousity, asked her, who she is going to be after graduation. She was a little bit shy, and then finally mumbled: "A translator"...
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Vladimír Hoffman Slovakia Local time: 22:09 Member (2009) English to Slovak + ...
Personally,
Jan 21
I think that main skill that can be only acquired by practice is deeper understanding of a text. What an author intended to say when he used this phrase? How a device/agreement/business case described in your translation can be functional? Understanding a meaning sometimes requires not only to understand what was said, but also what should have been said or even (in the case of poor original) what was said incorrectly. I even saw original texts (written in English by non-natives), where wording of some sections was directly opposite to their actual meaning. The words were meaningful, the sentence was meaningful, but the section was contradictory to meaning of translated text in its entirety. And you need experience to cope with (or at least identify) such deviations. The feeling that something is wrong.
Jabberwock wrote:
Besides, there are some things you can only pick up over the years: ....
[Edited at 2012-01-21 19:05 GMT]
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Aurora Humarán Argentina Local time: 17:09 English to Spanish
...
Jan 22
Jabberwock,
Again, you are misinterpreting the article. I will try to explain my point again.
In general, let’s say that students are not supposed to work. Are some students gifted enough to work while studying? Yes. Then, in such cases (exceptions), if they are working as translators, then they should charge as translators! (or wait till they have their diploma to then work and apply the expected rates). Just in case, in my country, national associations recommend rates. The rates recommended do not vary if you have 3 years or 30 years in the profession (or if you graduated one second before or if you are the gifted student in my example), so we assume that the rates our associations recommend are a floor. Thus, a veteran like me might (“might” because age does not necessarily mean you are a better professional, we all know that) charge more than junior colleagues (or those "gifted" special students who can start while studying).
Now, let me tell you that this is not the situation I am analyzing in the article. Nowhere in the article am I referring to those couple of gifted students. I am referring to the HUNDREDS used as cheap labor, to agencies managing to get into universities with deceitful messages, to universities having agreements with agencies (yep), to professors advising students to work for agencies or to professors advising to charge peanuts, to agencies managing to get into associations, and even to professors hiring their own students (while they are… their students, yep!). The article is basically about that. The worst part of the story is that the agencies hiring these hundreds of students boast of all the negative practices of the profession: pay little, invent a trainee position that does not exist (trainees have a legal format, in fact: they should get feedback and work less hours than normal employees, for example, and that is not complied with), expect too many words per day, expect work during weekends at the same rates, have started using postediting software, etc., etc., etc. (I guess you already have an idea of the profile of the agency I am describing). So many veteran translators like myself feel obliged to say something about that. Not to mention associations.
If the pay is the same, the client will have no need for students at all.
That is exactly what I say in the last paragraph! Students are only preys because they can be offered low rates, otherwise the juicy niche for the agencies just vanishes. If they cost the same, why run a risk? Let's go with professionals.
Agencies use them and create a sort of loyalty, as these students are shaped as per the agencies standards (which serve to continue dumping the market in the US, for example, and paying low salaries in other countries). Let me share with you that there is an agency that does not allow its translators to participate in lists and fora (!!!), but not only while working (using KudoZ, etc.) but also from their homes... Why? It's obvious! They don’t want these people to… KNOW.
As I have told you before, I have been travelling throughout my country lecturing for many years, and have tons of information that resulted in my active position on this matter. Don't think I have not other things to worry/care about The situation is very sad and unfair. Many colleagues feel, like I do, that we need to do something to change this reality.
«The actual alternatives are: students are paid badly or are not paid at all. In other words, the only way to end the exploitation is to forbid students to translate at all (in other words, regulate the market). I have a strong feeling that in that case students would prefer to be exploited, thank you very much.»
But that is exactly what I say in the article! “What kind of welcome do they get from students? Happy! Expectant! Appreciative! (That's because students are unaware that they are being exploited and that they are digging their own graves.)”
The alternatives we see to change things are much more difficult to implement than forbidding students to translate (which I don’t see feasible, as you cannot prevent the contact agencies>students because, among other reasons, both parties tend to hide that fact). The possible solutions are more time consuming, more difficult, but at the same challenging for us who decide to devote time to changing things in our profession.
Have a nice Sunday and week everybody,
Aurora
[Edited at 2012-01-22 02:29 GMT]
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Alexandre Maricato Brazil Local time: 17:09 Member (2009) English to Portuguese
When there is no action, there is no change
Jan 22
Aurora Humarán wrote:
In such cases (exceptions), if they are working as translators, then they should charge as translators! Just in case, in my country, (...) the rates recommended do not vary if you have 3 years or 30 years in the profession (or if you graduated one second before or if you are the gifted student in my example).
So I am right to suppose that in your country, if you need to visit a doctor, you have no problem with choosing and paying the regular rate to someone who graduated one second before, instead of an experienced professional. Or if you want to build your house, it is ok to leave the task to someone who is still in colleged. Or even if your car is broken, then why go to an established shop? Just take your vehicle to the "gifted" student next door that he will fix it like a pro.
Students are only preys because they can be offered low rates, otherwise the juicy niche for the agencies just vanishes.
Let me share with you that there is an agency that does not allow its translators to participate in lists and fora (!!!), but not only while working (using KudoZ, etc.) but also from their homes... Why? It's obvious! They don’t want these people to… KNOW.
So who's to blame here? Those who impose such ridiculous rules or the "poor" students who accept it? If someone cannot make a stand, then they are allowing themselves to be exploited. I am sure this agency is not the only place available to work and, if they are as good as you say, they will find no problem to work elsewhere.
The alternatives we see to change things are much more difficult to implement than forbidding students to translate (which I don’t see feasible, as you cannot prevent the contact agencies>students because, among other reasons, both parties tend to hide that fact). The possible solutions are more time consuming, more difficult, but at the same challenging for us who decide to devote time to changing things in our profession.
Well, I see that complaining about a problem and expecting someone else to solve it is not the best approach.
Do the concerned associations in question have more objective and concrete efforts than feeling sorry and blaming the market for the "exploitation" of the students?
For example:
a) Do the concerned members of such associations consistently refuse to work for agencies who they know "exploit" the students?
b) Do the associations are effectively in contact with international companies that operate in your country to offer translations services? I am sure that a National Association looks better in the eyes of a client than a simple translation company. And if so, do the work collected from these clients go straight to the students, who are paid "professional" rates?
c) Are the members of such associations consistently sharing work (which they cannot handle) with such "gifted" students, and then paying the full rate to them?
As you can see, presence and discussions around the table are a nice display, but have no effective result. If the point is to interfere with the market functioning, then the associations should work as a business entity, which can actually provide a "fair" pay to the students.
Of course, acting like business entities may not be purpose of such associations. If so, then interfering with how the market works certainly isn't either.
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Aurora Humarán Argentina Local time: 17:09 English to Spanish
...
Jan 22
So I am right to suppose that in your country, if you need to visit a doctor, you have no problem with choosing and paying the regular rate to someone who graduated one second before, instead of an experienced professional. Or if you want to build your house, it is ok to leave the task to someone who is still in colleged. Or even if your car is broken, then why go to an established shop? Just take your vehicle to the "gifted" student next door that he will fix it like a pro.
No. It is very obvious that I am not saying that. Neither in my article nor in my words in this thread. Pity you reached such a wrong conclusion.
I am closing my participation in this thread as I got tired of explaining the same things over and over again, and also because I found a level of hostility that does not encourage me to discuss further.
Regards,
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1. Either every student's translation is the same quality as one prepared by an experienced pro - or it's not.
2. If it's the same quality, why do so many people boast 10 or 20 or 30 years experience in their profiles? Surely not trying to be unethical?
3. If it's a different quality, then either the price should be lower, or students should get no jobs, right? You don't get to pay the price of a Cadillac for a VW Polo, except under Communism or a variation thereof.
Show me a dent in this reasoning, other than "oh, you have no idea how those bastard agencies can tell students not to surf certain parts of the web and those poor students will listen", or "our association says so and so". Either what Jabberwock is saying makes sense or it doesn't.
[Edited at 2012-01-22 11:49 GMT]
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Jabberwock Poland Local time: 22:09 Member (2004) English to Polish
Poor students or poor professionals
Jan 22
Aurora Humarán wrote:
In general, let’s say that students are not supposed to work.
Are not supposed to? You do realize that for some of them it is the only way to get through the studies at all? You are so concerned for their plight that you'd rather have them starving?
Are some students gifted enough to work while studying? Yes. Then, in such cases (exceptions), if they are working as translators, then they should charge as translators!
I see, they are exceptions now? But I've read somewhere that good student translators in your country were the norm... Where was it? Oh, yes here it is:
Argentine T&I Universities are known internationally because of their high academic level, so a standard 3rd or 4th year student's work will not be bad at all.
I am afraid that the article itself is as inconsistent...
Now, let me tell you that this is not the situation I am analyzing in the article. Nowhere in the article am I referring to those couple of gifted students.
No? How about this:
So, let's translate! But translate just like a professional translator? No way! This is cut-rate translation in which students do the work professionals usually do, but for ridiculous rates, turning themselves into veritable "beggar translators."
If those students "do the work professionals do", then those are the gifted ones, aren't they? The paragraph at least gives me the impression that the article was supposed to be about them - good student translators working at low rates. Only afterwards you refer to students who translate into languages they don't know... And you advise them that they should ask for professional rates for that. No, really.
I am referring to the HUNDREDS used as cheap labor, to agencies managing to get into universities with deceitful messages, to universities having agreements with agencies (yep), to professors advising students to work for agencies or to professors advising to charge peanuts, to agencies managing to get into associations, and even to professors hiring their own students (while they are… their students, yep!). The article is basically about that.
It is a bit difficult to discern that this is what you are referring to and that this is what the article is basically about, if none of those practices (quite questionable, I agree), are even mentioned in the article (beside the cryptic remark about predators)...
Let me share with you that there is an agency that does not allow its translators to participate in lists and fora (!!!), but not only while working (using KudoZ, etc.) but also from their homes... Why? It's obvious! They don’t want these people to… KNOW.
And the students go to their homes and browse the Internet and dutifully skip all the forbidden pages... I had no idea students are so obedient nowadays. Not to mention the fact that getting to know an average translation rate in a given country takes about three minutes of googling. I am quite sure the students know what are the professional rates. And that they won't be able to get them.
That is exactly what I say in the last paragraph! Students are only preys because they can be offered low rates, otherwise the juicy niche for the agencies just vanishes. If they cost the same, why run a risk? Let's go with professionals.
Finally we're getting somewhere. You don't want the students to get regular rates (as this is impossible). You just want them to stop translating at all. In other words, you want to help those poor students by getting them out of work. Somehow I do not feel they will appreciate that kind of help...
It is natural that associations try to eliminate the competition and block the entry into the market for non-members. What I object to is trying to disguise it as a concern for the "exploited" ones.
But that is exactly what I say in the article! “What kind of welcome do they get from students? Happy! Expectant! Appreciative! (That's because students are unaware that they are being exploited and that they are digging their own graves.)”
Students dare to turn to those who are willing to pay them and reject the advice of those who would prefer to see them unemployed? The youth these days!
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Marieschen France Local time: 22:09 Member (2011) English to French + ...
Why shouldn't student take the risk?
Jan 25
and also, what do you call a low rate?
I never translated as a freelance when I was a student, so I have no idea of the kind of job that can be offered to students.
However, having started as a freelance 6 months ago, I was confronted to a variety of offers, from $0,02 (didn't take that one ) to €0,10. I now work most of the time for €0,05/€0,06, and this is below what I was told to take when I was a student. I have also heard translators complaining that this was too low and bad for the market. However, I see that one can make a living with this rate, and that it doesn't involve working all night or all week-ends.
If I had been working for 20 years, I would be expecting a better rate. But I reckon my clients have taken a risk, and most of them give me a feedback when necessary, which makes our partnership quite fair from my point of view.
As others have said before, if the student is given a proper feedback, if it is usefull for him/her to get this training, if it helps him find "real jobs" afterward, why not? The agency is taking risks too, and might lose a client if the work is not good enough, which means they have to do some kind of QA afterwards. The student will then be more experienced when he will start "for real" and eventually be able to ask for better rates.
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Two perspectives - agency and student - both may lose.
Jan 25
This sounds like it will be hard to create a sustainable business model here.
Are there people who are really gonna pay for this? And if so in what field?
In business, for example, a low quality translation service is basically useless no matter how cheap it is, because if you just want a vague idea of the meaning then Google translation or Babel fish will give you that free of charge.
But if you want to make any decisions based upon a translation then you need to be sure that it is accurate otherwise you might make expensive mistakes or lose business.
Translation students differ from experienced translators in terms of their breadth of knowledge and their stylitistic agility. As a result they will take much longer to produce a useable result. This means if they accept work at lower rates then they will face a double penalty - lower rate and more time.
For students, I think it is better to cut your teeth accepting short jobs at market rates and then working on that text with a mentor until you get it to perfection. Expertise in the specific leads to ability in the broad. Someone who gets used to delivery low quality in their formative stages will find it hard to develop the skills they need for real quality work.
David Taylor
[Edited at 2012-01-25 16:48 GMT]
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Marieschen France Local time: 22:09 Member (2011) English to French + ...
Totally agree with this
Jan 25
SoundsWrite Ltd wrote:
For students, I think it is better to cut your teeth accepting short jobs at market rates and then working on that text with a mentor until you get it to perfection. Expertise in the specific leads to ability in the broad. Someone who gets used to delivery low quality in their formative stages will find it hard to develop the skills they need for real quality work.
I think you are totally right on this: students would then be used to low quality, if they are not given a proper feedback.
However, when I was a student, a publisher used to give student jobs at low rates, because he knew his books didn't need to be well written. This might be an example where students get training and (a little) money...
[Edited at 2012-01-25 21:49 GMT]
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Jeff Whittaker United States Local time: 16:09 Member (2002) Spanish to English + ...
Clients
Jan 25
I wonder if this company's website informs potential clients that they are able to offer low rates because they are using "inexperienced translators" they do not know or if instead they claim to offer the same quality at a cheaper price. If this is the case, wouldn't it be easier (and even cheaper) for this potential client to just hire their own translator and bypass this agency?
If they do notify their clients that they are using "inexperienced translators" does that mean that they are absolved of any and all errors that these translators may commit and clients have no right to make any claims regarding poor quality? Does that mean that these "inexperienced translators" that the agency is knowingly hiring as inexperienced are entitled to receive payment regardless of the poor quality of their work?
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Students are only preys because they can be offered low rates, otherwise the juicy niche for the agencies just vanishes. If they cost the same, why run a risk? Let's go with professionals. 
The situation is very sad and unfair. Many colleagues feel, like I do, that we need to do something to change this reality.
) to €0,10. I now work most of the time for €0,05/€0,06, and this is below what I was told to take when I was a student. I have also heard translators complaining that this was too low and bad for the market. However, I see that one can make a living with this rate, and that it doesn't involve working all night or all week-ends. 
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