Inexperienced translators / translation students beware
Noni Gilbert Spain Local time: 22:12 Member (2007) Spanish to English + ...
Jan 18
I am worried to read an advertisement for a job currently visible on Proz. They are looking to offer a low-cost service by paying low rates to inexperienced translators.
I quote: "We see this as a way to gain experience within the field of professional translation". Doesn't the whole ad smack of exploitation? And what do you bet some more experienced/qualified translators who are desperately short of work try to jump onto this "bandwagon"? A pitiful situation.
Not to mention the quality issue...
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Diana Coada United Kingdom Local time: 21:12 Member (2010) English to Romanian + ...
Me too
Jan 18
I was thinking of reporting this, but figured there would be no point.
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Thayenga Germany Local time: 22:12 Member (2009) English to German + ...
Inexperienced translators
Jan 18
Even translators with little experience deserve fair rates for their work. This is, of course, aside from the fact that certain outsourcers are obviously not respecting our work and its quality. With the current low of job offers, there is a chance, as aceavila - Noni stated, that experienced translators will jump on this wagon, which could result in an overall rate drop. Unfortunately, there are always translators who are willing - or forced - to work for such low rates.
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Phil Hand China Local time: 04:12 Member (2011) Chinese to English
No apprenticeship?
Jan 18
I'm not sure what everyone else went through as they were getting into the industry, but I certainly did what I think of now as an apprenticeship: working for pitiful rates because I didn't know any better (and the quality of my work wasn't that great, back then, either), scrabbling around using every method I could to find clients, accepting pretty much any morsel people threw my way. I was in my twenties, and single. I could afford a few lean months, did some teaching on the side, and gained experience. It's served me well.
I'm not saying everyone has to go through that kind of a process, but I think it's a little bit unrealistic to say all translators should be getting "fair" rates. I think it was Peter Drucker who pointed out - in any industry there's always someone breaking in and someone just in the process of going bust. These people will always be offering heavy discounts. If your only weapon is competing on price, you're dead, because you're competing with the dying.
So, yes, students beware, do better if you can, but if you do end up doing some badly paid or crappy jobs, it's not the end of the world.
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Attila Piróth France Local time: 22:12 Member English to Hungarian + ...
No apprenticeship
Jan 18
Phil Hand wrote:
I'm not sure what everyone else went through as they were getting into the industry, but I certainly did what I think of now as an apprenticeship: working for pitiful rates because I didn't know any better (and the quality of my work wasn't that great, back then, either), scrabbling around using every method I could to find clients, accepting pretty much any morsel people threw my way. I was in my twenties, and single. I could afford a few lean months, did some teaching on the side, and gained experience. It's served me well.
And you are lucky that you did not completely run out of your resources and could get past that phase. I know many talented colleagues who could not. The "low-cost translation" business model may be lucrative to those who run this particular agency - but not for those who work with them. Those will only help them perpetuate this sweatshop system of working for burger-flipping rates.ű
Apprenticeship would be a fine idea - but it would mean working with a mentor and getting valuable feedback on your work. Which is absolutely not the case in the game whose name is "low-cost translation". Cheapo.
Attila
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Sheila Wilson Spain Local time: 21:12 Member (2007) English + ...
A very big "IF"
Jan 18
IF they are offering constructive feedback on every translation submitted, then I think many inexperienced translators will be happy to take up the offer (if the rates are just low, rather than stupidly low). However, I somehow doubt it.
Let's face it, even when inexperienced translators accept jobs for "normal" rates, they are already working for below-average income. When I started out. I didn't do 250-350 wph - I was lucky if I managed 150 wph with all the research, checking and double-checking I had to do before I took the plunge and hit the "SEND" button. It's feedback they need, not more work for even less pay.
Sheila
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Attila Piróth France Local time: 22:12 Member English to Hungarian + ...
Odds
Jan 18
Sheila Wilson wrote:
IF they are offering constructive feedback on every translation submitted, then I think many inexperienced translators will be happy to take up the offer (if the rates are just low, rather than stupidly low). However, I somehow doubt it.
Hi Sheila,
What are the odds that a company that provides constructive feedback to fledging translators chooses the snappy marketing line "low-cost translations"?
Attila
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Sheila Wilson Spain Local time: 21:12 Member (2007) English + ...
I did say it was a big "if"!
Jan 18
Attila Piróth wrote:
What are the odds that a company that provides constructive feedback to fledging translators chooses the snappy marketing line "low-cost translations"?
I'd say it would be pretty close to zero, Attila, but I'm an eternal optimist and there could be a 0.00...1 percent chance. But then I'm also a realist and I wouldn't really expect it to happen.
Sheila
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Jabberwock Poland Local time: 22:12 Member (2004) English to Polish
Experience and quality
Jan 18
Well, if they are inexperienced, then it might be assumed they do not produce the same quality as experienced translators... It is natural then they would be paid less, is it not?
In other words, shouldn't good translators be paid more?
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TransAfrique United Kingdom Local time: 21:12 Member (2011) Japanese to English
Wait
Jan 18
Hang on. If they're bad, why should bad translators be paid at all?
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Alexandre Maricato Brazil Local time: 17:12 Member (2009) English to Portuguese
The evil free market strikes again!
Jan 19
When someone hires inexperienced translators, there is an obvious expectation regarding the quality of the translation and the budget involved.
Maybe the client just wants to have his material translated for internal purposes, maybe this is just content to increase his website traffic, maybe he sells cheap products whose quality is low as well and just needs to have the accompanying texts translated... who knows?
If they want to pay 0.001 per word and there are people who accept it, then it is their business, not mine.
After all, the last time I checked, the French restaurant on my street didn't close its doors because a McDonalds store opened on the next corner. So, the point is, if we can provide a fine "cuisine", it is a waste of time to complain about hamburgers...
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Phil Hand China Local time: 04:12 Member (2011) Chinese to English
Not a simple issue
Jan 19
Look, neither absolutist viewpoint is right here.
Alexandre says:
"If they want to pay 0.001 per word and there are people who accept it, then it is their business, not mine."
But this kind of laissez-faire-the-market-is-always-right is well known to be rubbish. In any industry, there is a benefit to be gained from setting standards - both quality standards and payment standards. Translation is not steel. It's a highly complex intellectual product.
On the other hand...
TransAfrique says:
"Hang on. If they're bad, why should bad translators be paid at all?"
50% of translators are below average by definition. And in the real world, there are a lot of poor, low-price translators, especially in the developing world. It's important for Europeans not to get too smug about this. The high standards expected in Europe are good and important, but let's not forget that the vast majority of the world gets by on less. There is a market out there with a huge range of prices and quality levels, and our approach to the industry should take these "facts on the ground" into account.
Attila says:
"Apprenticeship would be a fine idea - but it would mean working with a mentor and getting valuable feedback on your work."
Yeah, sure, that would be nice, but it doesn't always happen. And Alexandre is right, this is a market thing, and markets can work. Sometimes your feedback is no more or less than: do I get the next job? It's a pretty imperfect kind of an education, but sometimes it's the best thing there is.
With respect to the job in question, I actually think they were being pretty reasonable.
They appear to recognise that real standards do and should exist, by suggesting that their rates are likely to be appropriate for students. That means they recognise that professionals wouldn't/shouldn't accept these rates. At the same time they apply a market discount for less experienced translators.
They're a lot better than the Chinese rip-off agencies who seem to think I should be glad to accept 2 US cents per word.
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Attila Piróth France Local time: 22:12 Member English to Hungarian + ...
Apprenticeship? No, it's student exploitation
Jan 19
Phil Hand wrote:
Attila says:
"Apprenticeship would be a fine idea - but it would mean working with a mentor and getting valuable feedback on your work."
Yeah, sure, that would be nice, but it doesn't always happen. And Alexandre is right, this is a market thing, and markets can work. Sometimes your feedback is no more or less than: do I get the next job? It's a pretty imperfect kind of an education, but sometimes it's the best thing there is.
I strongly disagree with the use of the word "apprenticeship" for such an arrangement. An apprenticeship without a focus on training/instruction is not an apprenticeship.
As students are involved and the conditions are way below the acceptable level for a sustainable professional career, the correct term is student exploitation. Here is a lovely article about it.
The fact that many colleagues at the start of their career go through periods of working under such conditions is by no means a reason to call it an "apprenticeship".
Attila
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Alexandre Maricato Brazil Local time: 17:12 Member (2009) English to Portuguese
Student exploitation? No, it's just business
Jan 19
Attila Piróth wrote:
I strongly disagree with the use of the word "apprenticeship" for such an arrangement. An apprenticeship without a focus on training/instruction is not an apprenticeship.
I agree that such arrangement should not be called apprenticeship.
But the notion that that any kind of apprenticeship should be involved on a business relation seems very odd to me. After all, apprenticeship programas usually rely on grants provided by the government to cover the costs incurred by the companies which carry such programs.
Is the client supposed to cover such costs in exchange of nothing? Will the client benefit in any way from the 'training' that the service provider (and not apprentice) may have received while providing a service?
If someone wants to engage in apprenticesphip arrangements, there are other places to go. If they want to act as service providers in a business environment, then the appropriate business rules should apply.
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Alexandre says:
"If they want to pay 0.001 per word and there are people who accept it, then it is their business, not mine."
But this kind of laissez-faire-the-market-is-always-right is well known to be rubbish. In any industry, there is a benefit to be gained from setting standards - both quality standards and payment standards. Translation is not steel. It's a highly complex intellectual product.
First, Alexandre didn't say the market was always right. He said he didn't have a problem with somebody charging 0.001 per word and somebody else paying this much.
Second, I agree that translation is a highly complex intellectual product, which is all the more reason to allow the market to work, rather than try to establish some sort of a pricing cartel (which is utopia anyway). The more difficult it is to price something, the less sense it makes to tell people not to price it at X but price it at Y. The fact that translation is a highly complex intellectual product is precisely the reason why it's OK for rates to vary wildly. Isn't it? I see way too many people thinking everybody should charge EUR 0.10 per word or so, plus minus 10% or 20%. But that's exactly how narrow the price range for oil and other commodities is, which everyone agrees translation is not.
Third, "/insert opposing view/ is well known to be rubbish" is not what I'd call a high quality argument.
[Edited at 2012-01-19 15:55 GMT]
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But then I'm also a realist and I wouldn't really expect it to happen.
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