Ata Arif ACIL United Kingdom Local time: 21:17 Member (2009) Kurdish to English + ...
Jan 20
Yesterday I got a job as it was advertised form Proz.com. I contacted the agency and they send me sample and asked or my CV, rate and delivery time. I send the required documents and I put my rate on the basis of a simple text the sent to me. when they send me the whole project it was full of graphs, charts, and text boxes which need a lot of art work (for right to left languages).
I told them, fine, although they cheated me I still said that I would not charge them any more as they were my new client!
I put today at 10.00 am as the deadline and they send me a job number. I have worked for many agencies on the basis of the job number only and no PO. but when they received the files back they contacted me that they did not ask me to proceed with the job and they were waiting to hear from their client.
I said no problem but if their client had changed his mind and gave the job to another company or translator I would be able to trace that! In this case they were worried and they said that they know there are not many translators in the UK for my pair of languages but there are many outside the country.
I understand it was my fault to trust them for two reasons:
1. the lied with me with a simple sample.
2. I did not ask for a PO.
However I have more than one reason to believe that they submitted the job to their client and they got paid for that:
1. when I said I would trace the job they were worried and they made long excuses instead to simply say 'it is up to you' or ''that is not our problem'.
2. the job was for a client in the same city where the agency is based.
3. when in the afternoon I said I would deliver the job next morning at 10.00 am they said 'that is great'.
4. they did not mention anything to indicate that was a potential job.
5. they said it was part of a multilingual project but they put only my language pair on the advert.
Please advise me on the following:
1- if I contact their client and send the translation to them free of charge or to double check who carried out that job for them would I break the code of practice?
Or
2- to contact other translators in my pair to trace it would that affect my professional reputation?
or
3- to put a negative note on the Blue Board for them.
or any other suggestions?
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Ty Kendall United Kingdom Local time: 21:17 Member (2011) Hebrew to English
What I think.........
Jan 20
First of all, it seems to me that they gave you the go ahead:
1. They gave you a job number (sounds equivalent to a PO to me)
2. The exchange whereby you stated delivery was met with agreement, not "wait a minute" or "hold on"...
I have had agencies in the past who were very tetchy with me when they thought I would start the project before final confirmation and they have always been very clear with the "not yets".
From what you say, everything seemed to indicate they gave you the go-ahead, so I wouldn't feel too bad there.
On the points you want addressing:
1. Is a tricky one. I don't think you will be breaking any code of practice (presuming you haven't signed an NDA or anything like that). It seems the agency are acting in bad faith with you and I don't see that you owe them any professional courtesy.
2. Depends on your colleagues, I doubt it would adversely affect your professional reputation on the whole.
3. I don't think you'll be able to give them a bad blue board rating, not if they don't pay you. To give them a negative BB entry I believe you have to have engaged in PAID work for them. Dumb loophole in certain situations in my opinion.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Tomás Cano Binder, CT Spain Local time: 22:17 Member (2005) English to Spanish + ...
Learn and forget
Jan 20
Ata Arif ACIL wrote:
I have worked for many agencies on the basis of the job number only and no PO.
Well, if this was a new customer, the PO was an absolute must. I think that the agency's communication was clearly faulty, but you should have insisted about a PO. If you had, the confusion would have been clarified from the very beginning.
Ata Arif ACIL wrote:
1- if I contact their client and send the translation to them free of charge or to double check who carried out that job for them would I break the code of practice?
In my opinion, this would be wrong, wrong, wrong. The agency would never trust you again, and it would give the end customer the unwelcome feeling that they cannot trust translators in general.
Ata Arif ACIL wrote:
2- to contact other translators in my pair to trace it would that affect my professional reputation?
Indeed, it would harm your reputation. It would be understood as if your ethical standard decreases quickly when a business conflict arises.
Ata Arif ACIL wrote:
3- to put a negative note on the Blue Board for them.
You can't. The agency will say the never ordered the job from you, and in fact you cannot prove that they did since there is no PO or no clear go-ahead by email. The Blueboard is only for actual work, and your case does not fall in that category.
I am affraid that, even if you are puzzled by the situation --and I fully understand that--, you have to let this matter go, apologise to the agency for the confusion (despite the fact that they will probably never contact you again), and learn from the experience.
I think it makes sense to remind everyone to A) never work for a new customer without a PO and B) in case of conflict with a customer, think twice, take a deep breath and always try to resolve all matters in a polite manner and assuming good faith on the other party.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Tomás Cano Binder, CT Spain Local time: 22:17 Member (2005) English to Spanish + ...
Codes and guidelines
Jan 20
May I remind you that you have adhered to Proz.com's Professional guidelines, which clearly state that:
"do not directly contact end clients, or subcontractors, without permission"
And:
"attempt to resolve disputes directly among parties involved"
Every member of the Chartered Institute of Linguists must also observe its Code of Professional Conduct:
"5.6 Practitioners shall not make any direct contact with a client or clients of a Principal without the Principal’s express agreement."
And:
"3.13 Practitioners shall respect confidentiality at all times and shall not seek to take advantage of information acquired during or as a result of their work. The duty of confidentiality shall not terminate on the completion of a commission of work and shall persist, where appropriate, beyond the cessation of membership or registration as in 2.1."
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Ty Kendall United Kingdom Local time: 21:17 Member (2011) Hebrew to English
Hmm.........
Jan 20
The CIoL regulations only apply if you are in fact a member. As far as I can tell you are a member of ITA (Iraqi Translators Association) but not IoL. So no worries there.
The ProZ guidelines are another matter. Although it does raise the question as to whether there can even be an "end client" if no paid work was commissioned.
But, for the sake of argument, let's play by the rules....ask for permission to contact them then. You have nothing to lose by doing that much....the second rule quoted by Tomás only says attempt to resolve...among parties involved, once you have attempted this - which it seems you have, then you fulfilled your obligation to this particular rule.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Tomás Cano Binder, CT Spain Local time: 22:17 Member (2005) English to Spanish + ...
In fact...
Jan 20
Ty Kendall wrote:
The CIoL regulations only apply if you are in fact a member. As far as I can tell you are a member of ITA (Iraqi Translators Association) but not IoL. So no worries there.
If the original poster is currently an ACIL, he is an Associate Member of the IoL, so the aforementioned rule does apply.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Samuel Murray Netherlands Local time: 22:17 Member (2006) English to Afrikaans + ...
A job number is not a go-ahead
Jan 20
Ty Kendall wrote:
First of all, it seems to me that they gave you the go ahead:
1. They gave you a job number (sounds equivalent to a PO to me)
Many of my clients state the job number in the very first e-mail when they contact me about a potential job. It makes it easy for everyone to track correspondence about that job, even if the job eventually does not happen.
2. The exchange whereby you stated delivery was met with agreement, not "wait a minute" or "hold on"...
Yes, this is a difficult one, since the exchange left you (Ata) clearly with the impression that the job was confirmed.
To give them a negative BB entry I believe you have to have engaged in PAID work for them.
If you (Ata) read again over your correspondence and you still believe that a neutral third-party person would have come to the same conclusion as you did (i.e. that the job was confirmed), then I think entering a BB entry would have to be allowed, since (in that case) you did engage in paid work for them. But ask yourself if a ProZ.com BB moderator who requests proof of that would likely agree with your interpretation of it.
Also, note that if you do decide to give a BB rating, you have to do so only after reasonable attempts at dispute resolution had failed... which in this case would mean more than just the few e-mails that happened shortly after the problem occurred.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Ty Kendall United Kingdom Local time: 21:17 Member (2011) Hebrew to English
Ah!
Jan 20
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Ty Kendall wrote:
The CIoL regulations only apply if you are in fact a member. As far as I can tell you are a member of ITA (Iraqi Translators Association) but not IoL. So no worries there.
If the original poster is currently an ACIL, he is an Associate Member of the IoL, so the aforementioned rule does apply.
I didn't see that! Sorry! I only looked at his memberships.....blindness!
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Tomás Cano Binder, CT Spain Local time: 22:17 Member (2005) English to Spanish + ...
I don't think so...
Jan 20
Ty Kendall wrote:
....the second rule quoted by Tomás only says attempt to resolve...among parties involved, once you have attempted this - which it seems you have, then you fulfilled your obligation to this particular rule.
So does this mean that if you do not succeed in the first attempt to resolve the matter, you are entitled to voice the dispute all over the shop, contact the end customer, and involve an unlimited number of unrelated people? No way José!
I think that if the original poster feels that he had a firm order and that the agency is stealing him of his money, he should be able to sue them/start a Small Claims procedure with them, and let a judge award him his money. That is the next step (and not airing the matter all over the industry), if you ask me.
[Edited at 2012-01-20 17:46 GMT]
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Ty Kendall United Kingdom Local time: 21:17 Member (2011) Hebrew to English
Not at all
Jan 20
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Ty Kendall wrote:
....the second rule quoted by Tomás only says attempt to resolve...among parties involved, once you have attempted this - which it seems you have, then you fulfilled your obligation to this particular rule.
So does this mean that if you do not succedd in the first attempt to resolve the matter, you are entitled to voice the dispute all over the shop, contact the end customer, and involve an unlimited number of unrelated people? No way José!
I think that if the original poster feels that he had a firm order and that the agency is stealing him of his money, he should be able to sue them/start a Small Claims procedure with them, and let a judge award him his money. That is the next step (and not airing the matter all over the industry), if you ask me.
I actually advised him to ask for permission to contact the end client. I'm just pointing out the precise wording of the rules, that they don't necessarily rule out involving other parties if warranted. That's all.
I wasn't suggesting blanketing the entire translation community, but the wording of the rule leaves room for manoeuvre if Ata feels the situation calls for it.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Aisha Maniar United Kingdom Local time: 21:17 Member (2003) Arabic to English + ...
Just a suggestion...
Jan 20
I can understand you feel aggrieved, Ata. Working with new clients is not easy and as has been pointed out, it is always best to get a PO and the agency's T&C first, but it's easy to say things in hindsight. A "rush" job from a new client is not always the best thing either...
I think it may be an idea to go back to the agency, if you genuinely feel that you have been wronged, and explain to them exactly what it was that was said that led you to believe that they had assigned a job to you. A PO is not the be all and end all of everything - not everyone provides them and confirmation by e-mail (I'm not saying it has or has not happened in your case) can be a binding agreement between parties. If you believe you have a case and they agree that, at least in principle, they led you to believe the job had been assigned to you, then see if they are prepared to at least give you a nominal payment for the work you have done on this basis. In my own experience, it is not completely uncommon for a(n end) client to cancel a job after assigning it to an agency, and at least, where I have had an established relationship with an agency, they have been prepared to pay for (some of) the work done. Of course, there is no relationship as such in this case, but I would also assume that if there is a dearth of Kurdish translators in this country, they may wish to keep your custom. Perhaps calm negotiation is a good way to start. If you are still unhappy and unconvinced, then perhaps contact a Citizens Advice Bureau or initiate a claim, as suggested, against the agency. Keep a close eye on any consequent incriminating comments/statements by the agency.
Good luck, Aisha
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Ty Kendall United Kingdom Local time: 21:17 Member (2011) Hebrew to English
Following on from Aisha's suggestion...
Jan 20
If the agency did lose the bid/reassign to another translator then keep your eyes peeled on KudoZ for any telltale signs which look familiar...However, as you believe that the agency got paid for your work, keep your eye on the agency (as Aisha suggested) and maybe even the end client (there are no rules against looking at their blogs/websites etc as far as I know) to see if there are any signs of them having procured your translation.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Ata Arif ACIL United Kingdom Local time: 21:17 Member (2009) Kurdish to English + ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you all
Jan 20
Thank you all guys for all your advice and recommendations.
I have learnt a lot from your kind discussions.
[Edited at 2012-01-20 19:34 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-01-20 19:34 GMT]
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Annamaria Amik Romania Local time: 23:17 Member (2008) Romanian to English + ...
Clarify
Jan 20
Ty Kendall wrote:
.....and maybe even the end client (there are no rules against looking at their blogs/websites etc as far as I know) to see if there are any signs of them having procured your translation.
That's my suggestion too. You could tell the agency that if they insist no job was assigned, hence no payment is due, then they are not entitled to use your translation, and you will take legal action if you see it anywhere.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
Ata Arif ACIL United Kingdom Local time: 21:17 Member (2009) Kurdish to English + ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thank you Annamaria and Ty
Jan 20
Yes, that would be a good idea, I shall clarify that I do not owe them anything for that job however should they use my translation in any way they would face legal action.
Thank you all again.
Subject:
Comment:
The contents of this post will automatically be included in the ticket generated. Please add any additional comments or explanation (optional)
memoQ translator pro is the premium product for professionals. It is Kilgray's best-selling tool among freelance translators: you get all the functionality available in memoQ in your local environment plus the ability to work on remote servers.
SDL Trados Studio 2011 is the latest market-leading translation memory software from SDL. Now with Track Changes, Bilingual Word Files support, new Display Filter, AutoSuggest and more great details.
The translation workplace 
Translation news