 Track this topic | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | | User | Thread poster: Eleftherios Kritikakis Minimum rate (just like ebay.com) has to be established |
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RobinB 
Germany
Local time: 09:18
German to English
| | Translation production lines | Sep 29, 2004 |
"Don't you all look at me like I'm a freak. This can be, and in an in-house context, IS organized like an assembly line."
I wouldn't argue with you at all there. In-house translation *has* to be organized along a production or assembly line basis or you don't achieve the productivity you're looking for and the whole thing becomes financially unsustainable.
"SUPPLY IS FINITE"
Yup, and translation isn't scalable.
"Not even a lawyer can charge 25."
Although they try. I read an article recently (maybe in the HBR) about a corporate that introduced new billing analysis software for bought-in professional services throughout the group. They found that some of their legal advisors were charging way over 24 hours a day!
"And a Martian can only add a few minutes."
But if they can translate, it may well be worth it 
Robin
| | | | RobinB
Germany
Local time: 09:18
German to English
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Henry,
Let's discuss this briefly in Toronto.
Robin
| | | | Levan Namoradze
Georgia
Local time: 12:18
  Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
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However, despite all 'wild market rules', there exist some regulatory mechanisms and options like an antimonopoly laws, agencies, national committees on price regulations, etc.
Why nations and economies use to apply such institutions and regulations? I think, because the market does and should not mean the chaos.
| | | | RobinB
Germany
Local time: 09:18
German to English
| | Regulatory mechanisms | Sep 29, 2004 |
I think it's worth pointing out that regulatory mechanisms are normally in place for three reasons:
- to prevent abuse of a dominant market position
- consumer protection
- (sadly also) to protect inefficient public-sector services from market competition.
I don't see that any of these apply to the translation industry. There's no monopoly; consumer protection is governed by other rules and regulations; the public-sector protection argument doesn't apply.
"national committees on price regulations"
Again, these tend to focus on consumer- or citizen-related issues, rather than on the B2B transactions that predominate in the translation industry.
"I think, because the market does and should not mean the chaos"
Please understand that there's a difference between chaos and disorder. Markets thrive on disorder because of the ambiguities and opportunities it creates. A state-regulated market is a dying market.
Robin
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 08:18
Flemish to English
+ ...
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Can anybody give a comment on the other side of the rate range.
There must be translators who get a higher than standard rate.
How do they motivate their rates?
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Proz is a powerful intermediary. This intermediary can to a certain extend determine the rules of a part of the translation market. Because it operates on a global scale, it is more influential than the associations.
| | | | Levan Namoradze
Georgia
Local time: 12:18
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
| | Strange argumentation... | Sep 29, 2004 |
'Please understand that there's a difference between chaos and disorder. Markets thrive on disorder because of the ambiguities and opportunities it creates. A state-regulated market is a dying market.'
Please understand that I fully realize the difference(s) between chaos and disorder (if any). All states use to regulate markets and industry lines and branches for their benefit. This is the elementary economics.
| | | | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 09:18
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
MODERATOR | | :-)) Been there, done that | Sep 29, 2004 |
RobinB wrote:
But if, as you claim, 95% of translators are losing money, then logic dictates that they'll pull out of the industry soon, thus creating a massive supply-side imbalance, and rates will soar again. OK?
Robin
[Edited at 2004-09-29 08:45] |
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and seen the rates soar back up.
I'm referring to certain bilingual combinations in which bilingualism is a natural phenomenon. With practically over 70% of speakers being competent bilinguals, many thought that the translation market was going to be a pushover. That was some four years ago (and I saw the prices advertised over ProZ.com).
AFAIK, today there are some 6-10 active people left in the combinations I monitor, and the clients are hard-put to find them (the truth is, they are easier to locate by client reference than by active searching. And when you have to ask a client where to find a competitor, there is a "massive supply-side imbalance").
The bottom line would appear to be, when prices become unsustainable, the producers go elsewhere.
When you've lived through things like this, it becomes a little easier for a provider to "be strict about his/her rates".
  | | | | RobinB
Germany
Local time: 09:18
German to English
| | Chaos and disorder | Sep 29, 2004 |
"All states use to regulate markets and industry lines and branches for their benefit."
Most countries regulate *certain* markets and industry segments. The general trend nowadays is "as much regulation as needed, as little as possible". I see no compelling evidence to back the argument that the translation industry (whatever that might be..) should be regulated. It's not the job of government (or anybody else) to guarantee a certain income level for self-employed economic actors.
"This is the elementary economics."
Sorry, but I can only assume we're using different textbooks.
Robin
| | | | Levan Namoradze
Georgia
Local time: 12:18
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
| | While assuming... | Sep 29, 2004 |
RobinB wrote:
"All states use to regulate markets and industry lines and branches for their benefit."
Most countries regulate *certain* markets and industry segments. The general trend nowadays is "as much regulation as needed, as little as possible". I see no compelling evidence to back the argument that the translation industry (whatever that might be..) should be regulated. It's not the job of government (or anybody else) to guarantee a certain income level for self-employed economic actors.
"This is the elementary economics."
Sorry, but I can only assume we're using different textbooks.
Robin |
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None has said here states use to regulate all markets. On my mind, none could be sure about 'general trends', since such declaration could only be of general nature lacking sources therefore. None intended here to instruct Government regulate the translation industry. The term 'self-employed' may include both an interpreter from Japan and the owner of General Electrics.
Sorry, but I can only suspect that some of us do not use any textbook at all.
[Edited at 2004-09-29 12:21]
| | | | RobinB
Germany
Local time: 09:18
German to English
| | Wire-crossing? | Sep 29, 2004 |
Levan,
"since such declaration could only be of general nature lacking sources therefore."
That's the experience here in the EU: Previously state-dominated markets are opened up to competition, and they're then regulated to ensure a) a "level playing-field" for all competitors, and b) that the interests of consumers are protected. That's the theory at least, and I think we'd all admit that it doesn't work all the time. But at least it is a more effective approach than the free-for-all we've witnessed in e.g. Russia.
"The term 'self-employed' may include both an interpreter from Japan and the owner of General Electrics."
Agree with the first, but not the second. As a listed company, GE has millions of owners, and their ownership status has nothing to do with whether they are self-employed or not.
Before we get our wires crossed and end up in a totally unnecessary dispute, maybe you can explain more precisely what you're suggesting. Then we can debate it objectively.
Robin
| | | | Levan Namoradze
Georgia
Local time: 12:18
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
| | Now we are doing right way... | Sep 29, 2004 |
Robin,
RobinB wrote:
That's the experience here in the EU: Previously state-dominated markets are opened up to competition, and they're then regulated to ensure a) a "level playing-field" for all competitors, and b) that the interests of consumers are protected. That's the theory at least, and I think we'd all admit that it doesn't work all the time. But at least it is a more effective approach than the free-for-all we've witnessed in e.g. Russia. |
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Absolutely.
"The term 'self-employed' may include both an interpreter from Japan and the owner of General Electrics."
Agree with the first, but not the second. As a listed company, GE has millions of owners, and their ownership status has nothing to do with whether they are self-employed or not. |
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A-a-a! If an owner of GE has got no other gainful occupation, we should consider him/her as a self employed.
| Before we get our wires crossed and end up in a totally unnecessary dispute, maybe you can explain more precisely what you're suggesting. Then we can debate it objectively. |
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Now we are doing right way! Proz may set a least price for a certain period, after expiration of which they could take a decision whether it worked good.
Levan
| | | | RobinB
Germany
Local time: 09:18
German to English
| | "The ProZ price"?? | Sep 29, 2004 |
Levan,
"If an owner of GE has got no other gainful occupation, we should consider him/her as a self employed."
The term formerly used for this type of individual was "rentier". Nowadays, I suppose you'd call them day-traders
But there aren't exactly a lot of them around at the moment.
"Proz may set a least price for a certain period, after expiration of which they could take a decision whether it worked good."
OK so far. But: how do you set this price? Arbitrarily? By reference to the language combination and/or subject area? By reference to the domicile of the agency? By reference to the price of oil? After all, there's no such thing as a single price for translations. Or can you buy translations "by the ton", as it were? Can you come up with a working model? Though I have to point out that Henry has already ruled out such a system (presumably he doesn't want the FTC breathing down his neck). But it would be an interesting exercise.
Robin
| | | | RobinB
Germany
Local time: 09:18
German to English
|
Williamson wrote:
Can anybody give a comment on the other side of the rate range.
There must be translators who get a higher than standard rate.
How do they motivate their rates?
--
Proz is a powerful intermediary. This intermediary can to a certain extend determine the rules of a part of the translation market. Because it operates on a global scale, it is more influential than the associations. |
|
Firstly, what is the "standard rate"? Presuming you mean something higher than about 0.16 cents per word, I don't think you'll see that many offers at that rate on ProZ or any other online translation platform, simply because they're serving a different market segment. Higher prices tend to be less transparent, based more on individual negotiation and transaction.
Can you provide an example of another online marketplace for professional or other services that imposes, or even suggests, minimum rates for those services?
Robin
| | | | Levan Namoradze
Georgia
Local time: 12:18
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
|
Very simply. For instance, one of the sites like Proz has established the minimum of 300 words as a job offer. I dont think there is need in complicated estimations, since that could be only an experiment. Proz may establish 0.07 Euros (as far as I know, mostly accepted in EU) or 0.12 USD for instance (accepted in US). That will do, on my mind.
| | | | Eleftherios Kritikakis
United States
Local time: 02:18
Member (2003)
Greek to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | | The fundamental error | Sep 29, 2004 |
If a pair of shoes is expensive, no one will buy it.
If a translation is expensive, it STILL has to be done.
This is what the FUNDAMENTAL error in your thinking is (I'm referring to all). You started with economics 101, ignoring the fact that the translation business has a demand which is INDEPENDENT of prices. If a company wants to translate its documents, they will, no matter what the price is.
Translation is not a product that will remain "on the shelve". It's a service. Do you think anyone suffered 10 years ago, when prices were more reasonable?
This is the serious thing here: The agencies are getting paid the same money anyway. But some of them, started risking their quality with cheap translators who will work for $0.01 in the middle of the night (for "additional income"). If you start having a 30-40% bad "professionals" (or amateurs) in the market, it's not easy to convince them that you are good (I was not always a translator. I had won 3 International awards in the financial sector way before, and I know how tough it was to convince people that "I was different, I was good"). The price war will drive the BEST out of the market (if one is good, he doesn't want to get a low pay), and this will drive the reputation (hence, the prices), even lower. Just sit there and see it happening, until everyone of us "has no life and works 14 hours a day" for pennies. I processed (translated and edited) more than 750,000 words so far THIS year alone, at a fairly good rate. No, I'm not complaining about money, I have plenty from my previous job and I make a decent salary as a translator. However, if the prices keep going down without a reason, it will become slavery... not a profession.
What I said about “a minimum reserve” has nothing to do with pricing control. Instead, the members of a community could decide on a minimum (let’s say “$0.05 minimum/word --- $20 minimum per job” or something like that. This way, you are not bidding like knowing that 10% of the members will give the job away for free or for $0.02/word (hey, it’s not worth it being in proz.com if I sell at $0.02… I can just send a nice letter to all agencies with a big heading “$0.02 / word, no strings attached”. Do I need to pay subscriptions in order to lose money? I can do that by myself…
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