 Track this topic | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | | User | Thread poster: Eleftherios Kritikakis Minimum rate (just like ebay.com) has to be established |
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RobinB 
Germany
Local time: 12:23
German to English
| | No fundamental error | Sep 29, 2004 |
I don't think there's any fundamental error in arguments opposing some sort of price control.
"If a pair of shoes is expensive, no one will buy it."
Not true. They will be bought by people who enjoy the feeling they get from a pair of expensive shoes. Or because they're simply more comfortable. Or by people who think the shoes offer better value for money than cheaper shoes.
"If a translation is expensive, it STILL has to be done."
First question, what's "expensive"? All prices are relative, so isn't the real question whether the translation is cost-effective or not, i.e. not whether it's "cheap" or "expensive", but whether it offers value?
Some translations are commissioned because the client has a legal obligation to publish or communicate in another language. Others are discretionary, and it's this discretionary spend that is driving down prices at the low end of the market IMHO. Very often, it's a choice between a cheap translation and no translation at all.
Then there's the middle-ground; the client wants to communicate in another language, but has to factor in cost/benefit considerations. There are plenty of translators out there making a good living by servicing this middle-ground because they offer more than "just translation".
"the translation business has a demand which is INDEPENDENT of prices. If a company wants to translate its documents, they will, no matter what the price is."
Not so. Companies don't operate in a vacuum, either. It's perfectly reasonable for them to make a purchasing decision based on sound "101 economics", for example: if there are 10 vendors offering the same quality, and the prices range from 50 to 100, it shouldn't come as a great shock that (ceteris paribus) a lot of the time, they'll place their order with the vendor offering to do the work for 50.
The big "if" here, of course, is "offering the same quality", but that's where ceteris paribus comes in.
"Do you think anyone suffered 10 years ago, when prices were more reasonable?"
Sure. The price *range* was more or less the same as it is today, but translator output was lower.
"But some of them, started risking their quality with cheap translators"
Going downmarket is a sure sign of a company in trouble.
"in the middle of the night"
Happens to all of us from time to time, irrespective of what we earn. It goes with the territory...
"I had won 3 International awards in the financial sector way before"
So analysts or bond traders all get paid the same, do they?
"However, if the prices keep going down without a reason"
And if there *is* a reason?
"What I said about “a minimum reserve” has nothing to do with pricing control."
What do you think the response of the agencies would be to that?
Robin
  | | | | Eleftherios Kritikakis
United States
Local time: 05:23
 Member (2003)
Greek to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | | The agencies will suffer mostly... (if prices go even lower) | Sep 29, 2004 |
You make some good points, but did you ever think that the price wars started mostly from amateurs, not by professionals? A factory was happy paying the agency 25 cents per word 10 years ago. Most of them still do that... where is the need for lower prices?
I'll tell you what unreasonably lower prices do in the market: they invite amateurs. It's psychological. An amateur is more likely to enter the market if he/she feels that this market is a cheap one. He/she doesn't need to be confident for his/her quality level, if the prices are low and everyone works for pennies. The pros send their businesses to the cheapest amateurs, and the quality suffers. Not in all cases, but it's an upward trend.
Bond analysts? CFAs? Just check the average salaries and earnings of these people. They make more than they use to make ten years ago. Yes, there are cheap ones as well, but the cheap ones are less than 30% of the overall market. The rest of them, like the US lawyers, have "unwritten" price lists. You expect that in the US, a good lawyer will cost you more than $250/hour (not the top ones, just a good one, for the middle class).
The Europeans and Eastern Europeans (and in my market, the Balkans), should USE the high US prices, and profit from them. Instead, they lowered the prices for everyone, forced the smart and talented ones to leave the market and find more profitable jobs, and filled the market with amateurs... I even had the experience of interviewing a guy from... Albania, who knew "some Greek", and wanted to become a "medical interpreter for the Greek language". Whoever hires him, they' re not going to know what he says, until they start losing clients... why did this loveable Albanian want to be an interpreter? Because he never thought that the job is serious enough... if translators hardly make a living outside their "mom and pap" home, then it's not a serious job, is it...
Prices ARE an essential part of professional reputation, you know that, everyone knows that. Even proz.com (AND the agencies) will profit from higher prices. IF the clients realize what translators are paid nowadays, they will start offering to the agencies HALF of what they offer now. The agencies, with high FIXED expenses (offices, staff, etc.) will feel the pressure much more than everyone else.
Lefteris
| | | | RobinB
Germany
Local time: 12:23
German to English
| | Suffer the little agencies.... | Sep 29, 2004 |
Lefteris
You too make some good points when you talk about *reputation*, and that's probably worth an entirely new thread in itself. This is also linked to the image of translators (or lack of it).
"The Europeans ..."
I presume you're referring here to the Mediterranean Europeans, not the northern Europeans, where prices can be far, far higher.
But what I can't accept is your argument that everybody should charge "US prices". Which should somebody in an economy with a low cost-of-living price themselves out of the market by charging what would be an exorbitant price (certainly in relative terms).
This seems to me to be the same sort of argument advanced by Sarkozy and Eichel that the new EU member states should raise their taxes to Franco-German levels to prevent "tax competition". That is simply a non-starter, because it would destroy any competitiveness the new member states may have (heaven help France if Sarkozy ever becomes president, but I suppose it's amusing to watch him play Cassius to Chirac's Caesar).
"Prices ARE an essential part of professional reputation, you know that"
Definitely. Though it'll be a while till I get to the EUR 1000 an hour charged by Big Four senior partners...
"Even proz.com (AND the agencies) will profit from higher prices."
Yes, but this won't happen if the prices are enforced. If you do that, the work will just drift elsewhere.
Robin
| | | | Parrot
Spain
Local time: 12:23
 Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
MODERATOR | | Hierarchy in the translator's life cycle | Sep 29, 2004 |
I just wonder why no one has brought up the effect of hierarchy in the profession. I don't like talking about it myself, since it implies levels in what is presumably a flat field, but glossing over it is unrealistic. The fresh graduate or newbie in-from-the-cold, self-admittedly with "still a lot of milk to drink", as they say in some languages, may and often does experience a psychological barrier in rating himself before he finds his niche, whereas no one who knows for sure that, charge as he charges, he will sell, will easily give in without a solidly-grounded self-motivation (like believing in the cause of a client and practically doing volunteer work from time to time).
Thus, despite what some Utopian professional codes may recommend, sharp differences can exist until an individual achieves what Alex Eames elsewhere calls a "comfort" level. These differences will always be around, although they will not always concern the same people. Many times, the cause is to be found in ignorance or a dearth of information, which is what we are trying to provide.
| | | | DGK T-I
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:23
Member (2003)
Georgian to English
+ ...
| | Agnostic on "enforced" minimum rate | Sep 29, 2004 |
RobinB wrote:
But what I can't accept is your argument that everybody should charge "US prices". Which should somebody in an economy with a low cost-of-living price themselves out of the market by charging what would be an exorbitant price (certainly in relative terms).
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It depends Robin. Pricing (like translation) is a sophisticated matter, as you don't need telling. Competent translators in some language pairs are in an excellent position to export their work to the United States at "US prices", wherever they are. They are fortunate to be in that position, for good market reasons specific to their situation, although they may be approached by people who hope that they are not aware of it! The same applies where translators have special skills, knowledge or services that few others have. In some other language pairs there may (sometimes) be an argument for competing on price, to some degree, although the probable result is price matching by the main competion, yielding little long term competitive benefit and a lower income - but I am not commenting about that here.
Also, while it's an interesting point that translation can be essential, desirable or optional for the client, the proportions of this vary, depending on field, country and so on, eg: this definitely wouldn't be a factor where all the work which was done was essential, which is not as rare as might be imagined.
I believe that the best protection for freelance translators and interpreters is to match the skill which is needed to produce good translation and interpreting, with improved commercial knowledege - and development of that is to the benefit of us all.
A small starting point for this is appreciating that the prices quoted in job postings which quote prices (at Proz or not) aren't a reliable guide to overall prices - and trying to gauge prices just from that leads to a misleadingly low impression of rates. It's helpful to cultivate diverse sources of information - public ones and private grapevines alike.
[Edited at 2004-09-29 22:07]
| | | | xxxLia Fail
Spain
Local time: 12:23
Spanish to English
+ ...
| | Some thoughts...... | Sep 29, 2004 |
.....somos traductoras públicas de inglés de Argentina y nos
encantaría poder trabajar con Uds a través de internet, ****nuestras tarifas son mucho más bajas que las que Uds publican**** en la página debido a la devaluación de la moneda Argentina en comparación con el Euro y el Dollar, si les interesa tercerizar el exceso de trabajo que tengan no duden en contactarnos.
*****Our rates are much lower that the ones you publish....becuase of the devaluation of the Argentine currency....*****
Received this email just now, and it seemed relevant to some of the issues discussed here.
So, how does/can a translator in a 'richer' country compete with one from a 'poorer' country???
A friend in one of the 'richest' countries in the EU recently expressed her worries about her own rates, becuase she saw that others living in the same country were offering lower rates for the same language combination, yet she feels that the cost of living there justified her higher rates, so can't understand why people are able to offer rates that are 75% of what she charges.
The Internet/globalisation has undoubtedly exercised downward pressure on prices, but we are not the only sector to feel this (I have just read 'Reefer Madness' by Eric Schlosser: interesting chapter on farm labour in CA). I have a distinct feeling that in Spain in the last year or two, minimum agency rates per word are taking a nose-dive.... This is something we, as a group, are fairly powerless to fight, becuase we can't organise, and even if we could organise and demand minimums, technology would ultimately defeat us (e.g. machine translation research would develop apace..)
But the Internet/globalisation is also creating more work, and the info it makes available also means we can do jobs that we couldn't do in pre-Internet days ... and better too!
However, as far as falling rates are concerned, we can expect economics to intervene, and that at some point a minimum rate will be reached (I think we are in a transitionary period where the Internet is taking effect and opening up our market).
It will work like this: as rates go down, fewer and fewer of the 'better' professionals will be available (they will find other alternatives to translation), and this process will be gradual, i.e. as rates decline, there will be a reduced pool of élite professionals, and the poorer rates will be accepted by those not in a position to turn down work (see today's Forum posting, which is probably a fairly accurate representation of the translator life-cycle - except that Stage 7 - abandonment - was excluded!). But bad press in terms of the 'poor' rates offered for translators will act as an entry barrier to the profession, and a reduced availability of translators in general, plus a severe shortage of expert translators, should begin to push rates up again, or at least underpin them (.....and assuming that MT has still not developed to the point where it can replace all translators/all human writing functions, which it probably won't as long as humans are still 'relatively' cheap/MT is 'relatively' useless. In fact, the real threat to us is possibly MT, as it will make a different kind of translator/editor necessary).
To combat this, translators have simply to make sure they are above-average in the pool of translators in all respects - qualifications, technology, consistency, reliability, dedication etc. - and above all, areas of expertise.
However, the languages involved also should be considered (let's assume that natives do the translation). For example (in regard to the languages I know/work with), the supply of German translators is almost exclusively composed of German nationals, most of whom will live in Germany and other German-speaking regions, which are limited in number and more or less equal in terms of cost of living (i.e. there isn't a huge gap on average - some translators will live in expensive DE-speaking cities in poorer DE-speaking countries/regions, others in less expensive regions of richer DE-speaking countries/regions, etc). As for translators to English, most will live in countries where costs of living tend to be high (GB, USA, etc). Translators to ES, on the other hand, will be competing with ES speakers living in far poorer countries.... maybe this is a simplistic assessment....but it seems that the only way we can underpin prices is for each of us to defend our own turf on the basis of minimum principles, such as on our prices, what we pay others, upholding the standard principle of translating into our first language only (as per the FIT declaration), etc. In this way, we defend the profession and obtain for it some of the recognition and prestige that other professions are accorded.
Finally, in calculating one's own prices, I think each translator has to set what I call a 'principled minimum' that takes into account monetary costs, but also includes non-pecuniary costs (of which, in translation, as far as I can see, the major one is health problems associated with RSI), plus past investment (time and money) in training and education. This is the price below which I know it's not worth my while - on principle - to translate on a regular basis, becuase I could simply walk into a simpler (probably humbler) job for a bit less per hour but with no associated investment and minimal risk; I'd also feel happier doing it, becuase I would be getting what I perceived as a 'fair' rate of pay. And if I consistently manage only to get work at that minimum rate then I know it's time to look around for something else (and will consider that humbler job, or esle retraining). Other translators will apply a similar criterion, many of them - for personal reasons to do with life-cycle stage, as one example - will postpone the decision a bit longer, but others will decide sooner that it's time to get out. And as rates fall, more and more will leave, fewer and fewer will enter the profession. And if/when MT comes to replace translators, it won't do so 100%, and it will create new kinds of work for us. Full circle.
[Edited at 2004-09-29 23:40]
| | | | xxxLia Fail
Spain
Local time: 12:23
Spanish to English
+ ...
| | Reply to Eleftherios | Sep 29, 2004 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
If a pair of shoes is expensive, no one will buy it.
If a translation is expensive, it STILL has to be done.
.........
The price war will drive the BEST out of the market (if one is good, he doesn't want to get a low pay), and this will drive the reputation (hence, the prices), even lower. Just sit there and see it happening,
............
I even had the experience of interviewing a guy from... Albania, who knew "some Greek", and wanted to become a "medical interpreter for the Greek language". Whoever hires him, they' re not going to know what he says, until they start losing clients... why did this loveable Albanian want to be an interpreter?
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Eleftherios
I can understand your frustration...
Just to comment the above, though, one can always buy a cheaper pair of shoes, or even make a pair (necessity is the mother of invention)...
As for the second item, just wait for the next big recession (let's hope we don't have one.....which is like sticking one's head in the sand) and see how translation budgets will be slashed when times are hard and funds are short, as happens with advertising, marketing, etc, and other aspects of a business that are not directly productive.
And you are right about what will happen to the profession if rates drop...people won't enter it and people will leave. So to my mind, this is something one should alwys bear in mind - the fact that one may have to consider training for another profession - if you don't, you become enslaved.
This is a fact of life nowadays, the day of a single profession/career/job for life is long gone.... upheaval and uncertainty is a reality for many people working in many areas of the economy, not just translators.
Finally, in regard to your 3rd item, there are people/agencies who know that 'quality' pays in the long-run, and who wouldn't touch the 'translator' you referred to with a 40-foor barge pole. I think we have to discuss the issue of rates in terms of translators who can genuinely do what they claim to be able to do, and not in terms of those who make false claims.
[Edited at 2004-09-29 23:36]
| | | | RobinB
Germany
Local time: 12:23
German to English
| | Pricing, etc. | Sep 30, 2004 |
Giuli,
"Competent translators in some language pairs are in an excellent position to export their work to the United States at "US prices", wherever they are."
I like the "whatever they are". I'm somewhat mystified by the frequent emphasis on "US prices": here in western Europe, the US is a low-wage/low-price economy as far as translation is concerned. This has happened before, of course, and I well remember accusations against US translators of translation "price dumping" back in the 1990s.
"The same applies where translators have special skills, knowledge or services that few others have."
Now we're getting to the core of the issue: specialisation. If you specialise in subject areas where demand is high, but supply is low, you're almost inevitably going to be able to command a higher price. But specialising doesn't happen overnight: you need to invest a lot of time and money in gaining your bilingual or multilingual subject area knowledge *and* keeping abreast of developments in that/those subject area(s). Before you do that, you're just a jobbing translator largely working the commoditised end of the market (this would also fit into Parrot's hierarchical structure).
"I believe that the best protection for freelance translators and interpreters is to match the skill which is needed to produce good translation and interpreting, with improved commercial knowledege - and development of that is to the benefit of us all."
It's certainly vital for translators to view themselves as business service providers, and not as starving artists deserving of financial support and public sympathy. But a sound knowledge of business does not, I'm afraid, seem to fit comfortably with the average translator profile.
"A small starting point for this is appreciating that the prices quoted in job postings which quote prices (at Proz or not) aren't a reliable guide to overall prices"
Aaaah. "Speaking the unspeakable"
Of course the prices quoted in platforms such as ProZ aren't a reliable guide to *overall* prices, but I'd guess they are a fairly reliable indicator of prices in the lower, commoditised end of the market (which is a huge market, of course, and wakes us up early in the morning after a nightmare about how the high end of the market has also become commoditised). Or not?
Robin
| | | | Levan Namoradze
Georgia
Local time: 15:23
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
| | Another question is... | Sep 30, 2004 |
And another questions is, who could suffer from setting fixed minimal rates. On my mind, that could be only some agencies, which use hiring freelancers instead of having their own staff. But I am sure freelancers will never suffer from that! Then, why do some freelancers express the negative opinion? No idea.
However, please note that ALL THAT IS JUST ONLY MY OPINION...
| | | | Hynek Palatin
Czech Republic
Local time: 12:23
Member (2003)
English to Czech
+ ...
| | Translators too | Sep 30, 2004 |
Levan Namoradze wrote:
And another questions is, who could suffer from setting fixed minimal rates. On my mind, that could be only some agencies, which use hiring freelancers instead of having their own staff. But I am sure freelancers will never suffer from that! Then, why do some freelancers express the negative opinion? No idea.
However, please note that ALL THAT IS JUST ONLY MY OPINION... |
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But of course that translators would also suffer - those who were willing to work for lower rates, because some jobs would be posted somewhere else or they wouldn't be performed at all.
It's not true that each translation has to be done no matter how expensive it is, as Eleftherios suggested in an earlier post. For example, if localization costs would be higher than profit gained from selling the localized software, then there's no point in localizing it.
Setting a minimum price generally creates an imbalance between supply and demand.
| | | | RobinB
Germany
Local time: 12:23
German to English
| | Rate-setting | Sep 30, 2004 |
Levan,
"who could suffer from setting fixed minimal rates"
Many parties, I think (including contractual freedom), but certainly the envelope-switching agencies.
But isn't this missing the point? Surely if translators wish to set a minimum rate for their work, it is up to the *translators* to do so, not the agencies, and certainly not a platform such as ProZ.
All that setting a minimum price in ProZ would achieve is that a certain segment of the market would simply drop off the radar screen, i.e. it would go elsewhere. While this might encourage a feelgood factor among some translators, it would, I think, have no impact on reality. What do you want? Out of sight, out of mind?
To sum up:
- It is for the individual translator to define his or her own minimum rate. If a number of translators wish to do this collectively, that's fine, but they certainly shouldn't give any impression of price collusion, to avoid anti-trust investigations.
- Every ProZ member has a facility to define their own acceptable price range. So what's all the fuss about?
- Translators have been moaning about prices for decades. But there are plenty enough translators who've earned a decent living and are now enjoying an active - and financially secure - "retirement" (old saying: "Good translators never die, they just get slower"). Similarly, there are plenty of ex-translators who found they couldn't make a (for them) good enough living from translating. But that's normal, isn't it? After all, we can't all necessarily do what we actually want to do - nobody owes us a living as translators.
- Having followed price and income debates for a good 15 years now, I think they just deflect attention from the real problems: a lack of any positive image for the profession; a lack of systematic translation process and value chain analysis; the unwillingness on the part of many (most?) translators to invest in specialisation; the seeming inability of many translators to understand the client processes and requirements and tailor their own offering accordingly; the almost manic energy that so many translators put into fighting T&I association political conflicts that ultimately only drive forward industry fragmentation; the readiness to accept the upside of globalisation ("we can translate around the globe"), but not the downside (global competition); the evident lack of will at many, possibly most, tertiary translator programs to move beyond "translation studies" (the easy bit) into genuine translator training (much more difficult); the dearth of properly structured translator CPD. And so on...
Robin
| | | | DGK T-I
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:23
Member (2003)
Georgian to English
+ ...
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I won't reply to Hynek's posting because I haven't researched his markets.
I can say to Levan from knowledge:
Competent translators in some language pairs are in an excellent position to export their work to 'the West' at 'western prices' (there are actually a number of different 'western' markets). They are fortunate to be in that position, for good market reasons specific to their situation, although they may be approached by people who hope that they are not aware of it! The same applies where translators have special skills, knowledge or services that few others have.
It is in our power, now, to develop our knowledge of international business, so that it matches our skill as translators and interpreters - that's the point I'd like to focus on. Cultivate this knowledge, and use it to benefit you. See my comments in my previous posting ('you' in the sense of 'one', of course).
If the site ever decides in the future that it will be legally possible (US or EU) for it to introduce minimum rates, I'll be happy to talk about the advantages and disadvantages then.
[Edited at 2004-10-01 08:54]
| | | | Narasimhan Raghavan
India
Local time: 16:53
Member (2007)
English to Tamil
+ ...
| | This is what a platinum member proposed to me | Sep 30, 2004 |
I received this mail from a platinum member, who himself charges 0.08 Euros per word. Yet he offered to pay me 0.75 rupees per word and in the bargain I was supposed to use Trados. For the uninitiated: 1 Euro = Rs. 56/ and you can imagine what Rs. 0.75 is worth. I politely declined pointing out that his own rate is more than Rs.5 per word!
He wrote a half-hearted reply about his not actually getting his 0.08 Euro. But I was not to be fooled.
Regards,
N.Raghavan
| | | | Levan Namoradze
Georgia
Local time: 15:23
Member (2005)
English to Georgian
+ ...
| | To Kalbatono (the respectful Georgian form of application) Giuli | Sep 30, 2004 |
Speaking frankly, I am pretty happy with my 'business developments' acting as a freelance translator. However, I fully agree with you regarding the 'self-development' activities to be taken by every freelancer. Thus, I think we just discuss how we could 'make things getting better'.
As for legal aspects, I could do my best for examining the US and the UK (perhaps, the English) legislations (as we know, being enough different, by the way), but I do not think we need that at all. I mean, should there exist a necessity or a possibility therefore, the Proz team would do that before.
| | | | ntext
United States
Local time: 05:23
Member
German to English
+ ...
| | Assessing the Feelgood Factor | Sep 30, 2004 |
RobinB wrote:
All that setting a minimum price in ProZ would achieve is that a certain segment of the market would simply drop off the radar screen, i.e. it would go elsewhere. While this might encourage a feelgood factor among some translators, it would, I think, have no impact on reality. What do you want? Out of sight, out of mind? |
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Hi Robin,
I agree that imposing minimum rates is probably a bad idea, for a number of reasons, many of which have been mentioned in this thread.
However, you might be wrong with your assumption that if "a certain segment of the market" were to "drop off the radar screen," this would "have no impact on reality."
This "certain segment" is the most visible segment of the overall market, especially to the thousands and thousands of language professionals and wannabe translators who frequent ProZ. Many of them, for better or worse, use ProZ as a prime source of information about the translation profession and market. And whenever they see a job posting on this site that specifies a rate (an outsourcer-imposed maximum rate, so to speak), more often than not, this rate will be located toward the low end of the bell curve. (It is no coincidence that those outsourcers who are prepared to pay decent translator fees don't typically advertise this fact.) The result is that ProZ presents a skewed image of the overall pricing structure of the translation market.
I contend that if these outsourcers — more specifically: their low-rate job postings — were to "drop off the radar screen," this would indeed impact reality, for two reasons:
1. those thousands and thousands of translators would not be tempted to base their pricing policies on a skewed image of the market, and
2. those thousands and thousands of translators would — dare I say it? — feel better, because the Internet's most prominent translation job board would look more professional and less like an all-you-can-eat buffet for bottomfeeders.
Even though you belittle the "feelgood factor," you do acknowledge that part of the issue is "a lack of any positive image for the profession." Positive image needs to begin with positive self-image, and ProZ is as good a place as any to improve that.
I will repeat here a suggestion I have previously made in a lengthy post (read it on a rainy afternoon):
Instead of introducing a site-imposed minimum rate, let's get rid of outsourcer-imposed maximum rates. In other words: disallow any specification or discussion of rates in the job postings, and let vendors place their bids. Translators would be free to quote whatever they like, and outsourcers would be free to hire whomever they like (and even to try and negotiate for a lower rate than quoted).
This certainly wouldn't make the aforementioned "certain segment" outsourcers disappear from the face of the earth. However, it might make their lives a little bit harder. If low-end outsourcers consistently receive bids that are higher than what they're prepared to pay, they may well "drop off the radar screen" and go elsewhere ... but that "elsewhere" might not be so easy to find, and it might be less convenient for them. (It's not impossible that other translation sites would impose similar rules if ProZ took the lead.)
Is it unreasonable to expect that, over time, this might indeed impact reality? I wouldn't be surprised if it did, and I'd feel pretty good about it.
Regards,
Dr. Feelgood
"Taking care of business is really this man's game."
[Edited at 2004-09-30 16:14]
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