 Track this topic | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | | User | Thread poster: Eleftherios Kritikakis Minimum rate (just like ebay.com) has to be established |
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RobinB 
Germany
Local time: 01:33
German to English
| | Radar screens | Sep 30, 2004 |
Dear Dr. Stranglove,
I've still got some Dr. Feelgood vinyl LPs knocking about somewhere. That was *real* R&B, not the modern pap...
"This "certain segment" is the most visible segment of the overall market, especially to the thousands and thousands of language professionals and wannabe translators who frequent ProZ."
Yes, definitely. I just felt it might be more diplomatic not to express this in such "in-your-face" terms.
"The result is that ProZ presents a skewed image of the overall pricing structure of the translation market."
Yup, can't argue with that one either.
"1. those thousands and thousands of translators would not be tempted to base their pricing policies on a skewed image of the market, and
2. those thousands and thousands of translators would — dare I say it? — feel better, because the Internet's most prominent translation job board would look more professional and less like an all-you-can-eat buffet for bottomfeeders."
Not so sure about that one. My feeling is that this work would simply drift off elsewhere to one or more other platforms. There might be a short-term feelgood effect, but ProZ would be less of a market for that segment. But hey, that might encourage a better quality across the board.
"Instead of introducing a site-imposed minimum rate, let's get rid of outsourcer-imposed maximum rates. In other words: disallow any specification or discussion of rates in the job postings, and let vendors place their bids. Translators would be free to quote whatever they like, and outsourcers would be free to hire whomever they like (and even to try and negotiate for a lower rate than quoted)."
That sounds fair enough.
Rainy days are for working. I'll read your earlier post when the sun's out and I'm the mood for Milk and Alcohol.
Regards,
Dr. B
"Trust me, I'm a translator."
  | | | | Konstantin Kisin
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:33
  Member (2004)
Russian to English
+ ...
| | new world out there, time to get used to it | Oct 1, 2004 |
Some of the things you have to consider when debating this issue are:
1. The Internet, the reason there is a such a large difference in rates is not only the fact that some people are prepared to work for less than others and that some are less qualified than others but also the fact that different people live in different countries with different standards of living, yet they compete for exactly the same jobs, so in essence, this is a world market.
In my language pair, I have to compete with people who live all over the former Soviet Union, where prices are MUCH lower, a pack of smokes costs almost $10 here in the UK and around $0.50 in Ukraine, for example, the same goes for food and just about everything else. They may be just as qualified, or more qualified and experienced than I am, but I still need to earn more to eat as well or even worse than they do.
The same can also be said for the cost of some materials: even some CAT tools cost less if you live in Russia than if you live in the UK.
2. Not everyone is a REAL pro.
Some people are just starting in the business, the ONLY thing they can compete on is price, we all do it, there is always going to be someone with more experience, more skills and a better sales pitch than you - how do I compete with someone who has been working in translation longer than I have lived? It is only logical that while they can dictate prices of up to $0.20 per word I'll be very happy with anything over $0.10.
3. Quality matters
When an agency is looking for freelancers what they want is the best cost/quality ratio available. INEVITABLY freelancers in lower cost countries are in a better position to provide the best ratio, that is simply a fact of life. However, if you specialise in your particular field and try to be one of the best freelancers in that field, in that language pair, eventually you should acquire your own clientelle which will be safe from others. After all, it costs agencies money to find, test and suffer the consequences of new translators.
I saw someone saying that no matter what a translation has to be done.
Just like any other good or service a translation will be done if the cost is lower than the price that translation can be sold for. Thats like saying we all need bread, a bank account and shoes so whatever the price we'll buy them. If the price of bread went up to $100 a slice you'd probably stop eating bread and the bakery would probably go out of business, as would a translation agency, faced with ridiculous prices. There is actually an imaginary point at which agencies would opt for automatic website translations despite the awful quality, because freelancers' prices were too high. Another thing to keep in mind is that we have competition not only from other freelancers but also inhouse translators.
I can quite easily understand Henry's take on the whole thing.
The only times when cartel agreements work (which is what a price floor is basically) is when the cartel governs close to 100% of the market, and even then raising price requires a very inelastic demand. If Proz were to impose a price floor they'd have to be sure that 95%+ of the world's translators would a) be members of Proz and b) wouldn't just go off to another site where there was no price floor (and more jobs as a result).
A price floor in the current situation would imho result in:
1) The site being abandoned by a very large proportion of translators
2) The site being abandoned by a very large proportion of agencies
3) Major loss of turnover, income and advertising revenue
All leading to large losses for the site's owner!
| | | | Eleftherios Kritikakis
United States
Local time: 18:33
Member (2003)
Greek to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | | Cost of living? Ha ha... | Oct 1, 2004 |
The cost of living in Greece right now, is 15% higher (already!) than in a middle class suburb of Chicago...! (after carefully comparing basic things).
The translators in these countries will have to raise their prices soon. If you start with $0.04 then you won't be able to raise them enough in the future. If you raise them by $0.01 per year, it'll take you six (6) years to reach $0.10 (!!!).
Think about it.
Lefteris
PS. If we all work from the internet, HOW do they know where you' re working from? Are you suggesting that each time I travel, I should lower my price depending on the country I visit?
| | | | Konstantin Kisin
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:33
Member (2004)
Russian to English
+ ...
| | Who said anything about Greece? | Oct 1, 2004 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
The cost of living in Greece right now, is 15% higher (already!) than in a middle class suburb of Chicago...! (after carefully comparing basic things). |
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Greece is an EU member state, the cost of living is likely to be higher there. I am talking about countries where a man can feed a family of 4 on $1000 per month and be considered VERY rich, for example Armenia.
PS. If we all work from the internet, HOW do they know where you' re working from? Are you suggesting that each time I travel, I should lower my price depending on the country I visit?
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Its nothing to do with THEM its to do with how low YOU as a translator can go. If i could cut my competition out of the market by working for $0.01 per word _and had no problem feeding my family to the standard i believe to be appropriate_ then I would do it without any hesitation.
You have to understand that someone living in Armenia, for example, can do 1 30k word project per month at $0.03 and be extremely happy with his financial position. Whereas for me living in the UK I'd have a hard time living at all with that kind of income...the catch is tho', we provide the same service.
| | | | Eleftherios Kritikakis
United States
Local time: 18:33
Member (2003)
Greek to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | | Marketing and business knowledge | Oct 1, 2004 |
You will not "cut" your competition by lowering your price. The 30K job is something that you would get anyway in that price range. There are translators in Poland working for $0.02/word, and they get less than one third of the jobs that a good Polish translator gets in the US for $0.14. Search for the reasons yourself. Can you type 100,000 words per day? Nobody can. So, no matter how low your prices are, you have a PHYSICAL limitation to process more, therefore you cannot "cut out the competition".
If you knew anything more about marketing/business (especially in very wealthy countries like the US), then you would also know that price is only ONE aspect of the game. Despite the fact that other countries are "cheaper", the US is getting the bulk of the language processing volume (why? diversity, organization, specialization, quality, ease of communication, etc.).
The only thing that cheap translators achieve, is that they will not be able to bring their prices to a satisfactory level in the future, when the cost of living will skyrocket (due to additional demand of products, possible EU intergration of their countries, etc.).
You see, I brought Greece as a perfect example, because the cost of living there was very low 5 years ago, and more than tripled furing the last five years. It's going to happen to other countries as well, and they will not ask the translators about it...
Lefteris
| | | | Konstantin Kisin
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:33
Member (2004)
Russian to English
+ ...
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Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
You will not "cut" your competition by lowering your price. The 30K job is something that you would get anyway in that price range. There are translators in Poland working for $0.02/word, and they get less than one third of the jobs that a good Polish translator gets in the US for $0.14. |
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We are talking about this website, not all the translators in the world. If an agency posts a job _on Proz_ and is given a choice of equally qualified translators, one who charges $0.14 per word and another $0.02 per word, which one are they likely to go for?
| Search for the reasons yourself. Can you type 100,000 words per day? Nobody can. So, no matter how low your prices are, you have a PHYSICAL limitation to process more, therefore you cannot "cut out the competition". |
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I think an example is in order.
Country A is a low cost country
Country B is a high cost country
Person A lives in country A and gets his jobs from Proz
Person B lives in country B and also gets his jobs from Proz.
Person A and Person B translate from language A to language B with equal speed, quality etc. They both have a capacity of X words per month.
A and B both eat the same amount of the same thing, have the same amount of the same clothes etc etc.
For person A to achieve his desired financial level he needs to earn $1000 per month.
For person B to achieve his desired financial level he needs to earn $3000 per month.
Now:
A job is posted on Proz. The volume is X words and the deadline is in 1 month.
Person A submits a bid of $1000 and knows, that if he wins the bidding he can feed himself and his family exactly as he would like for 1 month.
Person B submits a bid of $3000 and knows, that if he wins the bidding he can feed himself and his family exactly as he would like for 1 month. NOTE: anything lower than $3000 and he's not earning enough, he cannot go any lower!
Who do you think will win this contract?
The morale of the story?
People in low cost countries can work the same amount of hours and be paid a lot less and live as well as people in high cost countries who have no choice but to demand higher prices.
If you knew anything more about marketing/business (especially in very wealthy countries like the US), then you would also know that price is only ONE aspect of the game.
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This is true in any market and country. My point is, all other things remaining equal, those who CAN charge a lower price _ and still retain their standard of living_ will win the jobs. Simple as that.
| | | | Eleftherios Kritikakis
United States
Local time: 18:33
Member (2003)
Greek to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | | Yes, you are right | Oct 1, 2004 |
I agree with that point. My point is not to generalize this trend, and make it a status quo. Everyone is free to take on a job for $1 per page, if they want to (free market). However, if this spreads around as "the normal", the best translators will leave the market all together (good professionals will not stay in a market that's going down the drain...). Quality will eventually suffer as well, and the agencies will lose money (what client will pay top dollars for bad quality?).
Lefteris
| | | | Konstantin Kisin
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:33
Member (2004)
Russian to English
+ ...
| | High cost country = high quality? | Oct 1, 2004 |
Eleftherios Kritikakis wrote:
I agree with that point.
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I am glad we agree on that point 
| My point is not to generalize this trend, and make it a status quo. Everyone is free to take on a job for $1 per page, if they want to (free market). However, if this spreads around as "the normal", the best translators will leave the market all together (good professionals will not stay in a market that's going down the drain...). |
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I am not sure how quality of translation relates to country of residence. The truth is, all this trend means is that the market will be harder to enter from a high-cost country. Established pros can pay their bills from any country.
| | | | Eleftherios Kritikakis
United States
Local time: 18:33
Member (2003)
Greek to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | | That's EXACTLY where I started | Oct 1, 2004 |
That's exactly my point. Country of residence is almost irrelevant to the quality (completely irrelevant when translating into your mother tongue). SO, why would the price be different? You are delivering the EXACT SAME PRODUCT.
However, on the other hand, will a translator in Latvia (or Greece) have the ability to:
a) Buy new dictionaries
b) Improve his equipment
c) Pay high phone bills to call specialists for terminology issues
d) Pay his/her taxes
e) Advance in the profession and make it a great career,
if they charge $0.02? Lack of money brings lack of resources, and the quality may suffer in specialized projects... (especially the most sensitive ones).
Do you know that more than half of translators in Greece pay no taxes (tax evasion) simply because they do not expect that the government will ever check their bank deposits? They are not even registered as having a job in Greece (they are part of the underground economy). When the government will finally ask them to register and pay taxes and social security contributions, will they be able to raise their prices?...
Hmmm... many factors will enter the game, pretty soon, since this is only the beginning of globalization and the craze in internet services and money transfers. I remember that in the US, a few years back, you would pay no sales tax ordering via the internet. Well, the government reacted to that (especially the states), and now you have to pay sales tax. Same will happen in Europe (west and east) when the governments figure out the amount of money they lose by "internet" based professionals. Think about it. Are they all prepared for such a change? With taxes and SS contributions, the $0.04 becomes easily $0.03... and then, cost of living starts an upward trend... and then, they start to realize that they destroyed a great market...
Anyway, I have no more time today at least, but I'm telling you this: it's not useful to only "disagree". I know that it's the culture in many countries to generally disagree about everything (argumentative cultures). The key to sucess is to acknowledge the issue, the problem, and to see to what can be done.
Lefteris
| | | | Aleksandr Okunev
Belarus
Local time: 02:33
English to Russian
| | Translators of the world, unite! | Oct 3, 2004 |
| Konstantin Kisin wrote: The only times when cartel agreements work (which is what a price floor is basically) is when the cartel governs close to 100% of the market... |
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The real problem is there's no resource on the Net which would guarantee recognition to a translator or an agency, I mean, if I can't find you there, you're not in the business, like, for instance, the emerging Europages.
Why? Because of stubborn stupidity of fellow translators, who are eager to tear into each other's face over a synonym or a Uni degree.
A new web treanslators' site has been spamming Yahoo lists for some time. Another patrimony for someone's ambitions, I wish them to be at least half as successful as Henry (there's more than enough anti-Proz talk inthe forums too).
The next step, IMHO, for Proz and other sites stupidly competing against each other (as a matter of fact against us - freelancers) should be forming a webring and work together. Everyone will benefit from this, except bad translators (cheap and expensive BTW) and bad agencies (high and low paying).
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Answering another post: I once raised rates 20% in the middle of the job. The agency accepted and even considered it fair, so, it's not all black & white.
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Have fun.
| | | | Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 01:33
French to English
+ ...
| | MT user case study showing that MT is not useless | Oct 9, 2004 |
Ailish Maher wrote:
(.....and assuming that MT has still not developed to the point where it can replace all translators/all human writing functions, which it probably won't as long as humans are still 'relatively' cheap/MT is 'relatively' useless. In fact, the real threat to us is possibly MT, as it will make a different kind of translator/editor necessary).
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MT will never replace human translators for Outbound translation purposes. It is a CAT tool for such translation tasks. MT without human intervention is only useful for Inbound translation gisting needs and a limited number of Outbound type translation needs.
Read the following MT user case study paper which in a few pages documents clear proof that with a good tool, and excellent mastery of the tool in a human-computer interactive mode, it is possible to achieve significant productivity gains with MT software, and with very high-quality translated texts.
http://www.geocities.com/mtpostediting/Jeff-Allen-AMTA2004-paper_v1.01.pdf
Jeff
Jeff Allen
http://www.geocities.com/jeffallenpubs/
http://www.geocities.com/mtpostediting/
[Edited at 2004-10-12 12:32]
[Edited at 2004-12-29 13:28]
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