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Which part of a growing TM is whose???
Thread poster: Aleksandr Okunev
Aleksandr Okunev
Local time: 05:30
English to Russian
Feb 1, 2005

Hi all
I did search teh forums, honestly...
My client sent me a small TM, I did a translation of a manual using this TM and I'm about to translate a second similar manual.
Should I analyze the second manual against the small TM sent by the client or against the TM including my work?
What TM should I use for analysis if the client keeps sending manuals - the original or the growing one
Any opinions are welcome.
Thanks!
Alex


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 04:30
English to German
+ ...
I would handle this thing differently Feb 1, 2005

Hi! I would create an empty TM and compare the document against the document itself, to get best matching result. Later when I really process the document I would load my old TM. The purpose of my is to make the translation process easier for me. Client has no part of it.
Rgds, Brandis


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Aleksandr Okunev
Local time: 05:30
English to Russian
TOPIC STARTER
Terms a bit confusing Feb 1, 2005

Hi, Brandis, thanks for the feedback!
Brandis wrote: Hi! I would create an empty TM and compare the document against the document itself, to get best matching result.

That would give all matches below 75%, while I do have a small TM with some 100% matches. My issue is how to bill the client: onthe basis of analysis against *his*, stable TM, or agains *my*, working TM, including exclusively my TUs, where every translated segment would increase match rate amd lower pay rate.

Later when I really process the document I would load my old TM.

What do you mean by "my old TM". I have 2 TMs: the one I received which I do not use for translation, and the working one which is the one I received with the TUs I translated - it keeps growing.

Best of luck and thanks again
Alex


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Linn Arvidsson  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 04:30
English to Swedish
+ ...
How I would do it Feb 1, 2005



Later when I really process the document I would load my old TM.

What do you mean by "my old TM". I have 2 TMs: the one I received which I do not use for translation, and the working one which is the one I received with the TUs I translated - it keeps growing.


If I had to analyze the documents againts a TM I would use the first one, sent to you by your client. That is, the static one.

By the way, I suppose Brandis refers to the growing TM when he writes "my oild TM".


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Fernando Toledo  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 04:30
German to Spanish
Simply and logically Feb 1, 2005

Always analyze the file with the TM you will use for the job.
There is no other way.

Rgds

I'm speaking about the same client with a new manual version or something like this. Otherwise, the agency should tell you how to proceed or makes the analysis for you. If they do not ask...

[Edited at 2005-02-01 11:10]


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Aleksandr Okunev
Local time: 05:30
English to Russian
TOPIC STARTER
Then my own work turns against me? Feb 1, 2005

Thanks everyone!
Toledo wrote: Always analyze the file with the TM you will use for the job. There is no other way.
I'm speaking about the same client with a new manual version or something like this.

This contradicts with my newbie logic and a post above.
Then, with every new translated manual (they are quite uniform) I will have more cheaper matches because I use CAT in which *I* invested and this will happen ***without any practical effort or assistance*** from the client, he should just get bilingual from me, clean, analyze and the analysis reports will effectively drive the payment down beyond reason.
I simply don't get it.
Would any kind soul offer an idiot-proof explanation?...
Stay well
Alex


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xxxBrandis
Local time: 04:30
English to German
+ ...
another alternative Feb 1, 2005

Hi! you can ask your outsourcer to deliver you his TM along with the document analysis. This way you would be using his TM only and not yours (personally if you think your TM is giving you better results, then you should use it to your advantage). This way you would be neutral and translating in good spirit and less confused.
Rgds,
Brandis


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Aleksandr Okunev
Local time: 05:30
English to Russian
TOPIC STARTER
The first half is clear Feb 1, 2005

Thanks a lot for your feedback
Brandis wrote: Hi! you can ask your outsourcer to deliver you his TM along with the document analysis.

That is clear, especially when we set off.
This way you would be using his TM only and not yours (personally if you think your TM is giving you better results, then you should use it to your advantage).

The *big* question is: when does my TU become my *client's*? Suppose I get a good client TM with a manual, the manual has got 50% hits above 75% from the TM. I do the translation and get 100% of 100% hits, naturally.
Then I get a similar manual, with 45% hits above 75% from the original TM and 85% hits above 75% match from the updated TM. What is the accepted practice? Prior to sending a new manual to me will ***an average*** client clean my translation into his TM and make analysis based on that? I made some preliminary calculations and analysis and can say that if that is the case, the average Proz rates you may safely divide by 2.
This way you would be neutral and translating in good spirit and less confused.

I guess I'll have to discuss it with teh client in detail. The trouble is he knows less about it.
Any ideas?
Best of luck!
Alex


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Fernando Toledo  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 04:30
German to Spanish
I do not think that way Feb 1, 2005

Time is the keyword.

How much do you get for 1 hour translating?

Imaging you translates the manual of, for example, Banana boat v 1.0.01. And you get your money. You needed 100 h and you make 3000 €

Now the client make a new boat in banana green and 20 cm bigger, so they make a new manual: Banana boat v 1.0.02
The new manual is 80 & identical with the old one

Without a analysis you will get 3000 € for surely not more than a few hours work



And that is good! But sorry is not so good for the client and it will never gives a version 1.0.03.

Sure you have to consider the money you spend buying a CAT tool but...

So think how many hours you will need and consider if this analysis fit with your pretentions to get 30 €/h like with the first manual.

My point of view

Rgds

[Edited at 2005-02-01 18:55]

[Edited at 2005-02-01 19:11]


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Judy Rojas  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 22:30
Spanish to English
+ ...
You need to use the most up to dateTM Feb 1, 2005

Hi Alexander:
You need to use the most up to date TM. Then, apply the discounts you feel comfortable with. If the client sent you an original TM, you can bet he/she knows about this.

Some translators choose not to give discounts for 100% or fuzzy matches. Others apply Trados' 30/60/100 rulle. Others, some fomula in between.

Cheers,
Ricardo


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Claudia Digel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 04:30
English to German
+ ...
Agree with Toledo and Ricardo Feb 1, 2005

Hi Alexander,

I totally agree with Toledo and Ricardo.


Time is the keyword.

How much do you get for 1 hour translating?



It just doesn't seem to be right to charge the client in full for 100% matches that you leverage from your TM.

I don't want to suggest that you shouldn't charge for this at all but it's common practice to charge a lower rate (anything between 20% and 33% of the rate for new words) for 100% matches (and something like 50% for matches above 75%).

This way, the amount you charge will reflect the work that you put into the job.


Of course, the way you deal with this will also depend on your client's expectations. If the client doesn't know anything about TM tools and how they work you might decide not to let them know that you use a TM tool and charge your new word rate for every single word, but even then the client will probably expect you to offer a discount if new manuals are quite similar to previous ones because you can copy and paste some parts from previous translations and don't need to re-translate everything from scratch.

Your case seems to be different though because the client did send you a TM and surely will expect you to use the TM.

What is the accepted practice? Prior to sending a new manual to me will ***an average*** client clean my translation into his TM and make analysis based on that?


If I understood you correctly, your client requests that you return unclean files. In that case, they surely will update their TM with you files and use the updated TM when analyzing new manuals. They will know the amount of new words in the new manual and will expect discounts for repeated parts that you can leverage from previous translations.


Of course, all this means that you will earn less when translating new manuals. But at the same time it means that it will take you considerably less time to complete the translation so that you can do much more work in the same time and thus earn the same amount of money.

HTH

Regards,
Claudia



[Edited at 2005-02-01 19:19]


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Aleksandr Okunev
Local time: 05:30
English to Russian
TOPIC STARTER
Yeah, forgot that absolutely :) Feb 2, 2005

Toledo wrote: Time is the keyword.

Of course, I forgot about productivity which is a factor I should not treat separately. Thus, I analyse against the latest, client specific TM, get less lucrative match spread but complete assignments faster (and gradually become a fat overpaid translator).
Thanks a lot for your feedback!
Warmest wished from freezing Bobruisk
Alex


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xxxMarc P  Identity Verified
Local time: 04:30
German to English
+ ...
Which part of a growing TM is whose??? Feb 2, 2005

Claudia Digel wrote:

It just doesn't seem to be right to charge the client in full for 100% matches that you leverage from your TM.

(...)

This way, the amount you charge will reflect the work that you put into the job.


By the same logic, you should charge 600% for each of those segments that required an hour's research.

Marc


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Jabberwock  Identity Verified
Poland
Local time: 04:30
Member (2004)
English to Polish
I strongly disagree with that view! Feb 2, 2005

Toledo wrote:

So think how many hours you will need and consider if this analysis fit with your pretentions to get 30 €/h like with the first manual.



That is what the whole concept of intellectual rights is about! That is why a translator is different from a typist.

Let's take your example and modify it slightly: the company is selling the banana manual not with the boat, but as a book.

Then they make small amendments and sell the book again. They will obviously charge the same for the new book, won't they? So if you make them pay only for translation of the amendments and they charge the full price for the new book, they get ahead mostly at your expense...

Of course, one has to be reasonable. In the case described I would give a discount too, but not even close to what you propose! You say that the client won't give you the version 3. But taking it to another translator will cost the client more, not to say that the versions won't be compatible.

Think of your personal TM as if it is your external experience. When you have two years of experience, you certainly need more time to effort to translate a text, than you have ten years of experience. Does that mean that in the latter case you should charge less for the job??? I won't certainly punish myself for my progress, be it my own expertise or my own translation memory...


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Fernando Toledo  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 04:30
German to Spanish
Different point of view Feb 4, 2005

Jabberwock wrote:

Let's take your example and modify it slightly: the company is selling the banana manual not with the boat, but as a book.

Then they make small amendments and sell the book again. They will obviously charge the same for the new book, won't they? ...


That is the difference between a businessman and a worker.
If you want to make money, write a book, or make a banana boat but do not expect to be rich translating. We are offering services for the industry

I am a worker, and I work for a bussinessman,.
As a worker I pretend to get my money without risking if the banana boat will be a success or not.




You say that the client won't give you the version 3. But taking it to another translator will cost the client more, not to say that the versions won't be compatible.


No, I mean if version 2 is so expensive, the next boat will use the same manual as version 2, with a simple note telling you that some details may differ from original

Never forget, we are in the same "boat" and we need clients


Rgds


[Edited at 2005-02-04 12:28]


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