| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Problems with an agency Thread poster: Andrea Halbritter
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Andrea Halbritter wrote:
Sad to say so, Thomas, but my experience here in France is pretty much the same (in nearly any field),
Despite my precautions, I managed to be scammed by a US lawyer in France who just kept pushing paper around, asking for more and more documents, then wanted more money despite having given a quote up front, and then he ended up bankrupt (no wonder), so I lost all the money I'd paid him. He also quoted fiscal and administrative rules that had been abolished, so I had to bring him up to date on French law.
I used a British accountant working for a French accountancy company, and she kept messing everything up, then one year in November asked for the figures up to that point so she could get started, then elaborated the final tax return based on the temporary figures and ignored the final figures. The manager was just as useless and just ignored all complaints. In return, I ignored their final invoice and sacked them, then did everything myself. I complained to the ordre des comptables, and that was just a joke. You are not given a fair treatment by all those 'ordres', they simply protect their members.
So it's not just the French.
Apart from that, an incompetent French architect, a dishonest French solicitor who ended up sabotaging and delaying my case and lying to me about it - lie proven by a letter from the court president, more than one biased or incompetent judge, an army of incompetent civil servants and other employees working in public missions, not to mention all those who dislike small businesses and deliberately try to cause problems for them, or all the landlords and companies cheating all the time … I felt I wasted half my working time on administrative and fiscal wars in France, so I ended up leaving, not least as the environment for the self-employed is appalling. Germany has been a relief until now. No serious reason for complaint during the two years I've been here, but sure, there are people trying to scam you everywhere. I hope it lasts. Not everybody in France is like I've described, but there are enough of those who are to make life miserable for you.
| | | | | Translation into English... | Feb 2, 2016 |
translation: "get rid of this accountant right now"
Sorry for being cheeky, I'm just a little shocked at such a reply... this person is not an "expert comptable", right? Just an "aide comptable" doing the basic accounting tasks for your SCOP?
Have your other partners ever invoiced to non-EU countries before? Are all the partners involved in translation as well? I think you need to take some kind of action to short-circuit this person, can you get the other partners invo... See more translation: "get rid of this accountant right now"
Sorry for being cheeky, I'm just a little shocked at such a reply... this person is not an "expert comptable", right? Just an "aide comptable" doing the basic accounting tasks for your SCOP?
Have your other partners ever invoiced to non-EU countries before? Are all the partners involved in translation as well? I think you need to take some kind of action to short-circuit this person, can you get the other partners involved?
Translation is clearly an intellectual service. ARA-PL says so, but that might not sway your accountant much because he/she probably doesn't have any experience with ARA-PL as your company is a SARL.
And here is the French law resource that specifically mentions translation http://bofip.impots.gouv.fr/bofip/1495-PGP.html
V. Traitement de données et fournitures d'information
230
Constituent des prestations de cette nature :
- les travaux de traduction de documents juridiques, commerciaux ou autres ;
- la fourniture par une entreprise à une autre des nom et adresse de personnes figurant sur son fichier.
Here is one more resource, not too sure about the source but at least it mentions translation specifically:
page 5 section 2.4.10 http://iframe.treuhaender.ch/GetAttachment.axd?attaName=673a02_0119.pdf ▲ Collapse
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Thomas T. Frost wrote: Andrea Halbritter wrote:
Sad to say so, Thomas, but my experience here in France is pretty much the same (in nearly any field), Despite my precautions, I managed to be scammed by a US lawyer in France who just kept pushing paper around, asking for more and more documents, then wanted more money despite having given a quote up front, and then he ended up bankrupt (no wonder), so I lost all the money I'd paid him. He also quoted fiscal and administrative rules that had been abolished, so I had to bring him up to date on French law. I used a British accountant working for a French accountancy company, and she kept messing everything up, then one year in November asked for the figures up to that point so she could get started, then elaborated the final tax return based on the temporary figures and ignored the final figures. The manager was just as useless and just ignored all complaints. In return, I ignored their final invoice and sacked them, then did everything myself. I complained to the ordre des comptables, and that was just a joke. You are not given a fair treatment by all those 'ordres', they simply protect their members. So it's not just the French. Apart from that, an incompetent French architect, a dishonest French solicitor who ended up sabotaging and delaying my case and lying to me about it - lie proven by a letter from the court president, more than one biased or incompetent judge, an army of incompetent civil servants and other employees working in public missions, not to mention all those who dislike small businesses and deliberately try to cause problems for them, or all the landlords and companies cheating all the time … I felt I wasted half my working time on administrative and fiscal wars in France, so I ended up leaving, not least as the environment for the self-employed is appalling. Germany has been a relief until now. No serious reason for complaint during the two years I've been here, but sure, there are people trying to scam you everywhere. I hope it lasts. Not everybody in France is like I've described, but there are enough of those who are to make life miserable for you.
It sounds like if you were describing Spain
| | | | | It's always a fight in France | Feb 2, 2016 |
Well he's at odds with almost everybody else.
Here is the tax notice from the UK:
2.1 What is ‘place of supply of services’?
For VAT purposes, the place of supply of services is the place where a service is treated as being supplied. This is the place where it is liable to VAT (if any). There are a number of place of supply rules for determining where services of different kinds are made:
where the place of supply of services is in a Member State of the European Community (EC), that supply is subject to the VAT rules of that Member State and not those of any other country. If the Member State is not the UK, such supplies are said to be ‘outside the scope’ of UK VAT
where the place of supply of services is outside the EC, that supply is made outside the EC and is therefore not liable to VAT in any Member State (although local taxes may apply). Such supplies are said to be ‘outside the scope’ of both UK and EC VAT
8.1.3 Examples of services that are not supplied ‘where performed’
written translation services or interpreters’ services which do not take place at an event. These are consultancy services
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-741a-place-of-supply-of-services/vat-notice-741a-place-of-supply-of-services
My German accountant says the same:
Leistung an Privatperson Übersetzungen oder Leistungen, die auf elektronischem Weg erbracht werden (Webseite) a) Privatperson hat Wohnsitz im Drittland Die Rechnung wird ohne deutsche Umsatzsteuer geschrieben. Weitere Angaben sind nicht erforderlich. Eventuell ist im Drittland Umsatzsteuer abzuführen. b) Privatperson hat Wohnsitz im Gemeinschaftsgebiet Die Rechnung wird mit deutscher Umsatzsteuer geschrieben. Leistung an Unternehmer a) Unternehmer im Gemeinschaftsgebiet Es muss geprüft werden, ob es wirklich ein Unternehmer ist. USt-IdNr.: www.bzst.de (links: Bestätigungsverfahren ausländischer Umsatzsteuer-Identifikationsnummern)=> Bestätigung unbedingt ausdrucken und 10 Jahre aufbewahren. Wenn der Leistungsempfänger die Umsatzsteuer im Mitgliedstaat schuldet, steht unter der Rechnung: „Steuerschuldnerschaft des Leistungsempfängers.“ Die Rechnung muss bis zum 15. Tag des Folgemonats der Leistungserbringung geschrieben werden. Es muss die USt-IdNr. des Leistungsempfängers und Ihre eigene USt-Id.Nr. auf der Rechnung stehen. Für jedes Quartal muss eine Zusammenfassende Meldung erstellt werden. (Elektronische Übermittlung) b) Unternehmer im Drittland Die Rechnung wird ohne deutsche Umsatzsteuer geschrieben. Weitere Angaben sind nicht erforderlich. Eventuell ist im Drittland Umsatzsteuer abzuführen.
These are EU rules, so it doesn't matter if it's Germany, France or the UK.
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| Thanks to everybody | Feb 2, 2016 |
Okay, thank you!
Seems very clear to me. Have to get that in the brain of the accountant of my cooperative now... Pas gagné comme dirait le Francais...
| | | | | Accountant again | Feb 2, 2016 |
Answer of my accountant:
Le texte que tu cites est une directive communautaire.
Elle n'a pas encore été transposée dans le droit français.
C'est donc l’article 259 B du code général des impôts qui s'applique aux contribuables français.
I trie to translate that but I work not with English as you already saw:
The text is an EU rule which we do not apply in France at the moment.
So what we have to look at is 259 B du Code gé... See more Answer of my accountant:
Le texte que tu cites est une directive communautaire.
Elle n'a pas encore été transposée dans le droit français.
C'est donc l’article 259 B du code général des impôts qui s'applique aux contribuables français.
I trie to translate that but I work not with English as you already saw:
The text is an EU rule which we do not apply in France at the moment.
So what we have to look at is 259 B du Code général des impôts.
Possible that France does not apply the EU rules??? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | That's what I've heard from others too | Feb 2, 2016 |
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
It sounds like if you were describing Spain
Others have said the same.
Germany isn't as 'exotic' as France or Spain, its climate is colder, there is no Provence or Mediterranean, the culinary traditions are different, and some may even consider Germany boring … but I know now I can't function in a country like France. I need more orderly conditions. Some people apparently manage to cope, but the French administration was driving me nuts, and they take most of your income up front via an utterly incomprehensible and inflexible system of social charges they themselves are unable to administer correctly; it is officially a gigantic mess and recognised as such by the highest authorities in France.
I'm actually allowed to keep most of my income here in Germany and have no social charges to pay other than a health insurance of my choice, and no fights have been necessary yet.
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Andrea Halbritter wrote:
Answer of my accountant:
Le texte que tu cites est une directive communautaire.
Elle n'a pas encore été transposée dans le droit français.
C'est donc l’article 259 B du code général des impôts qui s'applique aux contribuables français.
I trie to translate that but I work not with English as you already saw:
The text is an EU rule which we do not apply in France at the moment.
So what we have to look at is 259 B du Code général des impôts.
Possible that France does not apply the EU rules???
Article 259B clearly mentions translation as one of the services where the place of supply is deemed to be at the customer's premises. Send the accountant the text here:
http://bofip.impots.gouv.fr/bofip/1495-PGP.html
and point out the part that I copied earlier... if this still doesn't convince them, I don't know what will!
(not sure about whether it has been transposed, I think so but don't have any evidence of that, so just forget about the EU stuff and send them the French law!!)
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| The tax authorities | Feb 2, 2016 |
Thanks. I did send him that link for the second time.
Got a reply from the French tax authorities as well:
Sorry 5 days have passed and we still could not answer your question. We promise we'll getting better soon! On va s'améliorer!
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Andrea Halbritter wrote:
Answer of my accountant:
Le texte que tu cites est une directive communautaire.
Elle n'a pas encore été transposée dans le droit français.
C'est donc l’article 259 B du code général des impôts qui s'applique aux contribuables français.
I trie to translate that but I work not with English as you already saw:
The text is an EU rule which we do not apply in France at the moment.
So what we have to look at is 259 B du Code général des impôts.
Possible that France does not apply the EU rules???
No, that's not possible. France is obliged to transpose EU Directives into French law by the deadline stipulated in the Directives, and the government is responsible for doing so. This is not a new rule but a many years old one, so "not yet transposed into French law" is just a bad excuse for his or her ignorance.
Article 259 B says the same as the Directive, by the way:
Par dérogation à l'article 259, le lieu des prestations de services suivantes est réputé ne pas se situer en France lorsqu'elles sont fournies à une personne non assujettie qui n'est pas établie ou n'a pas son domicile ou sa résidence habituelle dans un Etat membre de la Communauté européenne :
4° Prestations des conseillers, ingénieurs, bureaux d'études dans tous les domaines y compris ceux de l'organisation de la recherche et du développement ; prestations des experts-comptables ;
5° Traitement de données et fournitures d'information ;
There is a bulletin fiscal about the question on http://bofip.impots.gouv.fr/bofip/1495-PGP.html that Lori Cirefice has already quoted, and that also says translation is included in the scope of not being taxable in France.
An accountant who is unable to look up the detailed interpretations in the bulletins fiscaux and other fiscal documentation should be sacked on the spot. Next, he'll claim the authors of that bulletin don't know what they are talking about, I guess, being too stubborn to admit he/she has goofed.
| | | | | Accountant: Translation is not part of those services | Feb 2, 2016 |
Accountant after having had a look on the French link of Lori:
"Non, les pestations par voie électronique font référence à une liste définie par décret, et la traduction n'est pas dans la liste du décret"
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Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I'm actually allowed to keep most of my income here in Germany and have no social charges to pay other than a health insurance of my choice, and no fights have been necessary yet.
Do you have a spare room to rent by any chance ? Just this morning I was talking to a friend about the fiscal benefits of moving to Vanuatu.
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Andrea Halbritter wrote:
Accountant after having had a look on the French link of Lori:
"Non, les pestations par voie électronique font référence à une liste définie par décret, et la traduction n'est pas dans la liste du décret"
Exactly, translations are NOT classified under "prestations par voie électronique" (besides I read somewhere that VAT rules for "voie électronique" changed as of Jan 1st 2015)
Translation *is* classified under "traitement de données et fournitures d'information" and this is clearly stated in black and white, in 259B.
Can you send them a screenshot of the relevant part? It's under section V line 230...
Alternately, can you contact their superior? This is verging on the ridiculous now... tell them I have smoke coming out of my ears!!
| | | | | incroyable, unbelievable | Feb 2, 2016 |
Andrea Halbritter wrote:
Here is the answer of my accountant (accountant number 1...)
"la traduction ne rentre pas dans les activités réputées avoir été exécutées hors du territoire.
En conséquence, la TVA est applicable"
(to whom I did send all your paragraphs...)
Really.
Nobody in the whole EU insists about that... I have no more words.
Good luck
[Edited at 2016-02-02 19:57 GMT]
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France is driving me nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuts.
I copied the thing, coloured the translation thing and am now waiting what he's doing (this already was the superior...) I just asked if there is something I (Andrea) do not understand or how he understands that sentence..... I feel like in a book of Kafka.
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