| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Off topic: No, please let me pay to do the job! Thread poster: Nina Khmielnitzky
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cendrine marrouat wrote:
I read all your messages with attention. I agree with some of them, and others I don't. I think we all have worked really hard in our field.
I rarely answer the postings because, as someone said, the outsourcers know the competition will be fierce and they will take only the translator who offers the lowest rates (or in a case out of 10, the right translator for the job). The potential clients imagine we are cheap meat that will starve if they are not around.
I have rarely encountered clients who offered really interesting rates. At the beginning, I had to pay my rent, so I had to accept cheap offers (a couple of times). Then, I understood I had to get another job in order to make ends meet. And now I automatically refuse clients who will not accept my rates.
I am really annoyed when I see that we cannot discuss inappropriate translation offers. Why couldn't we voice our concerns about it?
The trend to lower prices is going on and on and it really makes me realize that someday soon, we will be like those poor people who work in sweat shops for 1 dollar a month or so because they have no other choice if they want to survive. Big corporations make profit out of them, and nobody says anything.
I am sorry, even though I really feel for those people (and I honestly do!), I don't want to end like them. It's time we woke up!
Sorry about my digression but I wanted to express myself...
Hi all,
One good idea would be to ban from ProZ Website translators who do not meet certain requirements in terms of rate - E.g those who ask for less than 0.07 euros per word !
I'm sure this proposal is acting like a cat among the pigeons ...
| | | | | Differences in rates throughout the world | Apr 21, 2005 |
Dear colleagues,
I am not sure if I misunderstood something here. I don't think that translators should all charge a fixed rate, e.g. 0.07 Euro, throughout the world. I just spent two years in China, and with average expenses of 300 Euro a month I could live like a queen. Having moved back to Germany, 300 Euro is not even enough to pay my rent. I am not sure if it is fair that a translator who lives in China (let me take China as an example, as I lived there and know the prices) cha... See more Dear colleagues,
I am not sure if I misunderstood something here. I don't think that translators should all charge a fixed rate, e.g. 0.07 Euro, throughout the world. I just spent two years in China, and with average expenses of 300 Euro a month I could live like a queen. Having moved back to Germany, 300 Euro is not even enough to pay my rent. I am not sure if it is fair that a translator who lives in China (let me take China as an example, as I lived there and know the prices) charges and earns the same as a translator living in Germany, while the one in Germany can buy for example one dictionary for a day's work, whereas the one in China can buy twenty dictionaries.
Am I wrong? What do you think?
Stefanie
PS: Would that mean that McDonald's should pay its employees in Germany a rate of 0.5 Euro per hour only because they pay their Chinese employees that rate?
[Edited at 2005-04-21 14:30] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Dictionaries printed where? | Apr 21, 2005 |
Hi Stefanie
I think you understood right. I'm not sure that my reasonning would work with any country, but between the countries I know well (and I know a few), we can't only look at the price of some items.
A good education for my children is much more expensive in Chile than in France. Where I write Chile I could write any South American country.
I know people who had to sell their house because a member of their family got cancer and they had to pay for all the... See more Hi Stefanie
I think you understood right. I'm not sure that my reasonning would work with any country, but between the countries I know well (and I know a few), we can't only look at the price of some items.
A good education for my children is much more expensive in Chile than in France. Where I write Chile I could write any South American country.
I know people who had to sell their house because a member of their family got cancer and they had to pay for all the surgery and treatment.
If I want a dictionary, or the books my daughter needs right now from France, or a mere French magazine, we have to pay 300 % of the price if we ask somebody to send it and here it costs more. In Chile we can't buy twenty dictionaries for the same price than one in France. There are a few printers and they don't print the same books.
My softwares are legal copies too, I had to pay 200 % for my Dragon bought in the US because of shipment and taxes.
So I'm not ashamed of saying what I say and my earnings don't allow me to live like a queen (and if it was the case it would be thanks to my husband's salary, not mine).
If a Chilean businees with Chilean clients needs a translation I'll charge a Chilean decent rate. If I'm contacted by an agency of country XX for client YY from country ZZ I don't mind but I'll charge what I consider an international rate, not the Chilean one.
Claudia
P.D.
I just notice that you didn't say "the same price" but for one day of work. I understand your point. The situation is not that one here anyway.
sundari wrote:
Dear colleagues,
I am not sure if I misunderstood something here. I don't think that translators should all charge a fixed rate, e.g. 0.07 Euro, throughout the world. I just spent two years in China, and with average expenses of 300 Euro a month I could live like a queen. Having moved back to Germany, 300 Euro is not even enough to pay my rent. I am not sure if it is fair that a translator who lives in China (let me take China as an example, as I lived there and know the prices) charges and earns the same as a translator living in Germany, while the one in Germany can buy for example one dictionary for a day's work, whereas the one in China can buy twenty dictionaries.
Am I wrong? What do you think?
Stefanie
[Edited at 2005-04-21 14:58] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mark Xiang
Local time: 06:20
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Doubt again. ^_^ | Apr 21, 2005 |
sundari wrote:
I just spent two years in China, and with average expenses of 300 Euro a month I could live like a queen.
Hi sundari,
A fresh university graduate with a bachelor degree could get a monthly salary of EURO300.00, or RMB3000.00 in China. I doubt you could live like a queen with that.
Mark
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Gina W
United States
Local time: 18:20
Member (2003)
French to English
You ARE all aware that in India, rates are lower – aren’t you? That is common knowledge, that the cost of living there is very cheap, so the wages follow. None of you are obligated to respond to this or any other job that you find insulting.
| | | | Jeff Whittaker 
United States
Local time: 18:20
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| A problem of perception | Apr 21, 2005 |
Ralf:
My problem is not the translator who says "to h7ll with the rest of them, I'm going to charge .03/word" (this person either has limited expenses, a lot of free time on their hands, or will soon leave the profession because they cannot earn a living at it)" or the translator who lives in India and can live on $5 a month.
The real problem is one of perception.
An agency in the US, for example, charging what we would consider "standard" rates here looks ... See more Ralf:
My problem is not the translator who says "to h7ll with the rest of them, I'm going to charge .03/word" (this person either has limited expenses, a lot of free time on their hands, or will soon leave the profession because they cannot earn a living at it)" or the translator who lives in India and can live on $5 a month.
The real problem is one of perception.
An agency in the US, for example, charging what we would consider "standard" rates here looks at the postings and begins to think "maybe we are paying too much."
A translator new to the profession - and unaware of "standard" rates may be quite happy "at least initially" to receive $150 to translate an 8000 word project over the weekend. Sometimes the innocent are taken advantage of.
The example I pointed out was an agency in the US seeking translators in the US not India (they did not specify otherwise) at .03 per word.
While I am sure that "some" of these "low-paying" jobs will be performed adequately by some naive newcomers, most of these jobs will be done by people who cannot compete otherwise (their work is substandard - unless of course they live in a country where these rates are acceptable - the US not being one of them). If the translators are making so little, the agency is earning even less and there is no budget for editing, revising or even proofreading.
What does the end-client receive? What perception does this end-client now have of the translation profession?
What can Proz and other sites do about this? Precious little I am afraid. Stipulating standard or minimum rates restricts freedom and would not take in account the various possible permutations of job requirements. The only solution that I have been able to come up with was to ban outsourcers from posting ANY indication of price (be it .03/word or even the words BEST RATES) from their postings. Instead of being told "we are paying ___ or our budget is ___", we should be asked "how much do you charge for...". This would eliminate the perception problem I spoke about. If we are all supposed to set our own rates based on our particular situation (be it economic or geographic) - why should outsourcers be allowed to stipulate rates? Yes, we do not have to accept these rates, but this thinking is backwards - it is the agency who should accept or not accept OUR rates.
Proz is not the "world police", but this site does have considerably more job postings than any other site and is the model upon which other sites have been and are being built.
However, my suggestion was not accepted by the overall community: http://www.proz.com/topic/30768
[Edited at 2005-04-21 17:27] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | 3000 RMB per month in China | Apr 21, 2005 |
Mark Xiang wrote: sundari wrote:
I just spent two years in China, and with average expenses of 300 Euro a month I could live like a queen. Hi sundari, A fresh university graduate with a bachelor degree could get a monthly salary of EURO300.00, or RMB3000.00 in China. I doubt you could live like a queen with that. Mark
Hi Mark,
I did have a monthly salary of 3000 Renminbi in China. And I lived like a queen. I did not have to touch any of my savings and could go for brunches in 5-star hotels, buy ten or twenty DVDs at a go, invite colleagues and students for dinners, etc.
Some of my students told me about their parents' incomes, and I have also heard what people in remoter parts of China earn per month. I talked to a girl who worked right in the centre of Shanghai, preparing food in a restaurant. She worked more than ten hours for six to seven days a week and earned less than half of what I did.
Maybe she lied and maybe the information my students gave me was wrong, too. I can't judge this. But I think they told me the truth.
Stefanie
[Edited at 2005-04-21 17:58]
| | | | | The living end! | Apr 21, 2005 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote: Ralf: My problem is not the translator who says "to h7ll with the rest of them, I'm going to charge .03/word" (this person either has limited expenses, a lot of free time on their hands, or will soon leave the profession because they cannot earn a living at it)" or the translator who lives in India and can live on $5 a month. The real problem is one of perception. An agency in the US, for example, charging what we would consider "standard" rates here looks at the postings and begins to think "maybe we are paying too much." A translator new to the profession - and unaware of "standard" rates may be quite happy "at least initially" to receive $150 to translate an 8000 word project over the weekend. Sometimes the innocent are taken advantage of. The example I pointed out was an agency in the US seeking translators in the US not India (they did not specify otherwise) at .03 per word. While I am sure that "some" of these "low-paying" jobs will be performed adequately by some naive newcomers, most of these jobs will be done by people who cannot compete otherwise (their work is substandard - unless of course they live in a country where these rates are acceptable - the US not being one of them). If the translators are making so little, the agency is earning even less and there is no budget for editing, revising or even proofreading. What does the end-client receive? What perception does this end-client now have of the translation profession? What can Proz and other sites do about this? Precious little I am afraid. Stipulating standard or minimum rates restricts freedom and would not take in account the various possible permutations of job requirements. The only solution that I have been able to come up with was to ban outsourcers from posting ANY indication of price (be it .03/word or even the words BEST RATES) from their postings. Instead of being told "we are paying ___ or our budget is ___", we should be asked "how much do you charge for...". This would eliminate the perception problem I spoke about. If we are all supposed to set our own rates based on our particular situation (be it economic or geographic) - why should outsourcers be allowed to stipulate rates? Yes, we do not have to accept these rates, but this thinking is backwards - it is the agency who should accept or not accept OUR rates. Proz is not the "world police", but this site does have considerably more job postings than any other site and is the model upon which other sites have been and are being built. However, my suggestion was not accepted by the overall community: http://www.proz.com/topic/30768 [Edited at 2005-04-21 17:27]
I just saw a request for quotes from an outsourcer of an (unknown) country stating that quotes would be handled "case by case after discussion". That's the living end! It means: I will discuss with you until I browbeat you to the lowest possible rate. I believe such a statement should be banned.
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| Differences throughout the world | Apr 21, 2005 |
I accept that because of the lower cost of living in Russia, for example, a rate of $0.06 is considered as a "very good" one by a large number of "translators". The problem is not all people who translate to and from Russian live in Russia - personally I couldn't care less about the cost of living in Russia, my cost of living is extremely high. For this reason, I find job offers (which I get monthly) of $0.03 per word insulting.
Anyone who wishes to take a job at that rate is more t... See more I accept that because of the lower cost of living in Russia, for example, a rate of $0.06 is considered as a "very good" one by a large number of "translators". The problem is not all people who translate to and from Russian live in Russia - personally I couldn't care less about the cost of living in Russia, my cost of living is extremely high. For this reason, I find job offers (which I get monthly) of $0.03 per word insulting.
Anyone who wishes to take a job at that rate is more than welcome to, it doesn't really affect me in any way. In fact, it probably does me good, since that person goes on Kudoz, asks a ton of questions, gives me the points, allowing me to boost my chances of being contacted by a real client, who will value my skills and pay me accordingly.
This is the niche vs commodity argument again - I bet you that the top Russia-based ProZians translating into Russian don't charge $0.03 per word and don't consider $0.06 to be a good rate.
Also, those of you going on about the lower cost of living in other countries are forgetting one little thing...the STANDARD of living in those countries is much lower. Often the cost of living at the same standard in those countries is MORE EXPENSIVE, but very few people can afford to live at the Western standard.
[Edited at 2005-04-21 21:29] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Educate other translators | Apr 21, 2005 |
Hello everyone,
I know it's very frustrating to see such job offers. Two years ago when I started on my own, I bid on a few jobs and never got them because I was bidding too high. Now, I don't waste my time bidding anymore. Proz has become just a way to advertise the services I offer... and it works since serious agencies and companies get in touch with me for specific projects and long term relationships.
On the other hand, I, myself, need the services of other transl... See more Hello everyone,
I know it's very frustrating to see such job offers. Two years ago when I started on my own, I bid on a few jobs and never got them because I was bidding too high. Now, I don't waste my time bidding anymore. Proz has become just a way to advertise the services I offer... and it works since serious agencies and companies get in touch with me for specific projects and long term relationships.
On the other hand, I, myself, need the services of other translators when I have too much work or when I get special requests for English and Spanish. I posted a few job offers and I base my choice on the presentation and the little translation the bidders are sending me back. I would lie if I say the price is not an issue... but I don't base my choice on it. I give fair prices to the translators I deal with.
Last year, I sermon an American translator who offered his services for US$0.01/word. I told him I rejected his offer only because he was breaking the market.
The other thing I find frustrating and sad (and somewhat funny at the same time): the translators who bid for a job from French to English and who are not able to write a complete sentence in English without making grammar and spelling mistakes... Usually these bidders are not even English speakers - English is their 3rd or 4th language. So, do you really think we will even consider your bid???
Here is my message: Translators of the world, PLEASE PRETTY PLEASE translate toward your mother tongue. Your work will be easier, you will get better feedbacks (meaning more work) and you will have a BETTER reputation.
One other thing, I don't think it's a good idea to publish our rates... When they are published, it's harder to negotiate. For example, if the job is very technical and you need to spend a lot of time finding terminology or if it's an emergency or weekend translation.
Also, it's hard to explain to a direct client that these rates are set for agencies only. They want to get the same rates.
In Canada, the many translation associations have been trying to move the market to an hourly payment of our services, instead of word base rates. I think it's a good idea, since we are professionals just like lawyers and accountants!
In conclusion:
We must be very careful not to sink our own profession!
Annie ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 18:20
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| | If no prices are indicated, we might end up wasting our time for the bid | Apr 22, 2005 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
What can Proz and other sites do about this? Precious little I am afraid. Stipulating standard or minimum rates restricts freedom and would not take in account the various possible permutations of job requirements. The only solution that I have been able to come up with was to ban outsourcers from posting ANY indication of price (be it .03/word or even the words BEST RATES) from their postings. Instead of being told "we are paying ___ or our budget is ___", we should be asked "how much do you charge for...". This would eliminate the perception problem I spoke about. If we are all supposed to set our own rates based on our particular situation (be it economic or geographic) - why should outsourcers be allowed to stipulate rates? Yes, we do not have to accept these rates, but this thinking is backwards - it is the agency who should accept or not accept OUR rates.
[Edited at 2005-04-21 17:27]
Hi Jeff,
But then, if an agency that is expecting to pay as little as .03 is not allowed to write this in their job offer, wouldn't all those who expect a much higher rate waste their time in writing that particular outsourcer? If I see they want to pay .03 only, I don't need to even think of what to write them. If I don't know what they expect, I might spend half an hour writing a nice bid for them. And they simply drop it in their wastebin...
Not allowing to put price expectations might not be the solution either. What do you think?
Stefanie
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Mark Xiang
Local time: 06:20
English to Chinese
+ ...
| Payment Calculation | Apr 22, 2005 |
When I was studying at the university in Shanghai, we had an English teacher from the USA, a handsome young man. In addition to a monthly payment, which I do not know how much it was, he also got the following for free:
Accomadation in the University's Foreign Expert Guest House;
Laundry, house service, hot water, electricity, etc.;
Three meals every day;
Communication/Transportation service for working days;
Round trip air ticket from Shanghai to his hometwo... See more When I was studying at the university in Shanghai, we had an English teacher from the USA, a handsome young man. In addition to a monthly payment, which I do not know how much it was, he also got the following for free:
Accomadation in the University's Foreign Expert Guest House;
Laundry, house service, hot water, electricity, etc.;
Three meals every day;
Communication/Transportation service for working days;
Round trip air ticket from Shanghai to his hometwon every year;
Even car service from and to the airport;
...
See what I am saying?
He already led a King's life before he spent a nickle of his salary! AND that was why he gained 25 pounds within a year. ^_^
So, employment payment = salary + remuneration benefits
Mark ▲ Collapse
| | | | Larissa Dinsley
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:20
Member (2003)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Thank you for the interesting article Jeff! | Apr 22, 2005 |
[quote]Jeff Whittaker wrote:
My problem is not the translator who says "to h7ll with the rest of them, I'm going to charge .03/word" (this person either has limited expenses, a lot of free time on their hands, or will soon leave the profession because they cannot earn a living at it)" or the translator who lives in India and can live on $5 a month.
The real problem is one of perception.
The example I pointed out was an agency in the US seeking translators in the US not India (they did not specify otherwise) at .03 per word.
The only solution that I have been able to come up with was to ban outsourcers from posting ANY indication of price (be it .03/word or even the words BEST RATES) from their postings. Instead of being told "we are paying ___ or our budget is ___", we should be asked "how much do you charge for...". This would eliminate the perception problem I spoke about. If we are all supposed to set our own rates based on our particular situation (be it economic or geographic) - why should outsourcers be allowed to stipulate rates? Yes, we do not have to accept these rates, but this thinking is backwards - it is the agency who should accept or not accept OUR rates.
quote]
This sounds like a very good idea. It might be educational for those who post jobs and expect to pay low rates to handle bids from professionals charging fair rates.
I suspect that they post the rates to save themselves from handling lots of bids - they should not be given this priveledge. It would be only fair if they were in the same boat as the outsources who do not include any rate limitaions in their postings.
| | | | | Education is necessary. Hiding pricing would be inconvenient and counterproductive to our interests. | Apr 22, 2005 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
What can Proz and other sites do about this? Precious little I am afraid. Stipulating standard or minimum rates restricts freedom and would not take in account the various possible permutations of job requirements. The only solution that I have been able to come up with was to ban outsourcers from posting ANY indication of price (be it .03/word or even the words BEST RATES) from their postings. Instead of being told "we are paying ___ or our budget is ___", we should be asked "how much do you charge for...". This would eliminate the perception problem I spoke about. If we are all supposed to set our own rates based on our particular situation (be it economic or geographic) - why should outsourcers be allowed to stipulate rates? Yes, we do not have to accept these rates, but this thinking is backwards - it is the agency who should accept or not accept OUR rates.
Proz is not the "world police", but this site does have considerably more job postings than any other site and is the model upon which other sites have been and are being built.
Of course you are right that we are not practically able to dictate rates. We have considered many proposals related to rates, and have experimented with a few. We are aware of experiments done by other sites, in translation and not, and we are aware of their effects. We have also been in a position to watch the patterns of companies that pay less than market rates. Based on what I have seen, I am convinced of one thing: if an outsourcer wants to pay a certain rate, and a translator wants to work at that rate, there is nothing any site can do. (Whether or not the venue should *try* to do anything could be argued either way, but in the end the point is moot.)
That said, I agree with you that advocating for translators is not a lost cause. It seems clear that there are times that translators accept assignments at rates that would not seem to allow for making a living, or for delivering quality work. This is not in the interest of the profession in general, translators in particular, or even outsourcers, who may benefit in the short term, but never last long.
Given that we *can not* practically interfere when two people are willing to work together, our only recourse, I am convinced, is to educate. We need to create a situation where each and every translator refuses to work at a rate that is below what they need to do quality work. How can we do that? Let's reach out as a community to those new members, and make sure that each of them knows how to do the math on what word rate he/she needs to charge to earn both their "bread" and their "holidays" (and their insurance, retirement savings, etc., etc.)
Because education is our only recourse, I agree with you that perception is very important. But I disagree entirely with the idea of hiding rates. If what is needed is education, much better to shine a light on the whole matter, and provide the tools for doing the math. Otherwise we would be moving in exactly the wrong direction: darkness. I'll quote on a job, only to find that the outsourcer is not willing to pay even my minimum rate. Both my time and that of the outsourcer will be wasted, and any "impressionable" translators (the ones your proposal concerns) will learn nothing.
From another perspective, and more simply, pricing is part of doing business. To prevent people from being open about pricing is really not a good idea. That is my opinion.
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