| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | Unreasonable rates Thread poster: Hepburn
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Marc P (X) 
Local time: 09:00
German to English
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| Unreasonable rates | Jun 12, 2005 |
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
The perceived downward trend in rates is not a market-wide trend - it is only occuring in certain segments of the market
Exactly.
This fact also needs to be remembered in negotiations with customers who seek to use the "downward trend" in bucket-shop rates as an excuse to reduce prices for quality work.
Marc
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What about asking agencies/outsourcers to enter a rate range for what they are willing to offer translators working for them, in the same way that freelancers are asked to enter their desired rate range for customers? This would help freelancers decide whether to work for an agency or not without getting into excessive restrictions for free business decisions.
Freelancers are warned when posting a bid on a job which rate is lower than their set range. Agencies should be warned as w... See more What about asking agencies/outsourcers to enter a rate range for what they are willing to offer translators working for them, in the same way that freelancers are asked to enter their desired rate range for customers? This would help freelancers decide whether to work for an agency or not without getting into excessive restrictions for free business decisions.
Freelancers are warned when posting a bid on a job which rate is lower than their set range. Agencies should be warned as well. What do you think?
[Edited at 2005-06-15 22:11] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | the idea behind rate restrictions for freelancers is... | Jun 15, 2005 |
...not to take away our freedom to charge the rates we want. We are given a choice about a) whether to set rates at all and b) should we choose to set them, what to set them to.
However (and this is in line with what Henry has already said about trying to increase our incomes) locking us within our set rates is a collective bargaining mechanism of sorts, which forces us to stick with our declared rates.
A brief study of the Prisoner's Dilemma will make it quite clear wh... See more ...not to take away our freedom to charge the rates we want. We are given a choice about a) whether to set rates at all and b) should we choose to set them, what to set them to.
However (and this is in line with what Henry has already said about trying to increase our incomes) locking us within our set rates is a collective bargaining mechanism of sorts, which forces us to stick with our declared rates.
A brief study of the Prisoner's Dilemma will make it quite clear why it would be beneficial for people who are in direct competition.
The last thing we want to do is give agencies this kind of (potential) influence over our rates.
Would be interesting to hear Henry's input on this. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jussi Rosti
Finland
Local time: 10:00
Member (2005)
English to Finnish
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| Bid may not accept the price | Jun 16, 2005 |
Claudette Hepburn wrote:
Message:
I see someone has sent a quote. If that person accepts to work for 0.03 EUR per source word of a legal document he/she is either mad or in great need or is a beginner with no guarantee of the quality you demand. Either way, you are then exploiting such misery.
How do you know the quote sent is accepting the price? I'm just a newbie @ proZ, but I've already got a job where the offered price was unacceptable to me. I just sent a reasonable offer thru proZ and got accepted (my quote was almost double to the initial price offered).
Maybe I don't know the culture yet, but I understand the quote for so that I can enter my own price. I guess you could do the same.
(Anyhow, I wouldn't even waste my time on bidding and offer of 0.03€, because I would't expect we could find an agreement.)
Finally, you get what you pay for - if the price is the most important factor for the orderer, ok with me. I'm in a different niche: I concentrate on quality translations and expect a reasonable pay in return. I think most professional agencies understand this logic...
-jr
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Ralf Lemster
Germany
Local time: 09:00
English to German
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| Spot on, Jussi | Jun 16, 2005 |
Maybe I don't know the culture yet, but I understand the quote for so that I can enter my own price.
This was actually one of the reasons why the language was changed from 'bid' to 'quote'.
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | | Choose your service range/price mix and stand by it | Jun 16, 2005 |
Konstantin Kisin wrote:
the idea behind rate restrictions for freelancers is......not to take away our freedom to charge the rates we want. We are given a choice about a) whether to set rates at all and b) should we choose to set them, what to set them to.
Right.
However (and this is in line with what Henry has already said about trying to increase our incomes) locking us within our set rates is a collective bargaining mechanism of sorts, which forces us to stick with our declared rates.
A brief study of the Prisoner's Dilemma will make it quite clear why it would be beneficial for people who are in direct competition.
The last thing we want to do is give agencies this kind of (potential) influence over our rates.
Would be interesting to hear Henry's input on this.
One thing we can conclude about rates, given the six years of experience we have had, is that there can be translators and clients that work with high rates, and right beside them, translators and clients that work with low rates. What makes this possible is that we are not dealing with commodities.
From another perspective, and on an individual level, the service I can offer at one rate will be different than the service I can offer at a tenth of that rate.
The rates mechanism says "decide your rates and stick with them (within reason)". If you offer high quality service at a "high" rate (whatever you consider that to be), then take that stand and market yourself accordingly. If you offer a competitive price, then take that stand. But don't think that you can have your cake and eat it, too. With the rates mechanism, a translator who would quote a certain rate to one client and one-tenth of that rate to another now has a more difficult time doing so.
A side benefit of the rates mechanism is that it also allows us to conclude with some certainty that the rates people enter are their real rates. I have more confidence in the data we have aggregated than I do in data obtained elsewhere.
As for the Prisoner's Dilemma, or collective bargaining, I would have to study how these apply. Our discussion were on a basic level when we introduced the rates mechanism.
| | | | Hepburn
France
Local time: 09:00
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | Who's the boss? | Jun 16, 2005 |
Jussi Rosti wrote: Claudette Hepburn wrote:
Message:
I see someone has sent a quote. If that person accepts to work for 0.03 EUR per source word of a legal document he/she is either mad or in great need or is a beginner with no guarantee of the quality you demand. Either way, you are then exploiting such misery.
How do you know the quote sent is accepting the price? I'm just a newbie @ proZ, but I've already got a job where the offered price was unacceptable to me. I just sent a reasonable offer thru proZ and got accepted (my quote was almost double to the initial price offered). -jr
I did not say the bidder had actually accepted that price. I said "If that person accepts to work for 0.03 EUR per source word of a legal document ..." so I am well aware this might not have been the case.
Of course we are free to ignore, accept or make a higher quote. What I was annoyed about is the agency offering to pay so little for a translation work. (As it turned out, it was proofeading if you have followed the whole thread and the outsourcer actually changed the wording of the add so distracted people like me would realise it was a proofreading job. I also had a friendly exchange of mails with the outsourcer)
And I still think that agencies or outsourcer should have the decency not to offer a rate at all if they wish to use the bidding system (quote is a delicate euphemism). Most do so and it is much better. If only because it saves us having fits.
They put up a job, they just have to wait for quotes and make up their mind, balancing experience, references etc...AND language pairs.
Your language pair Jussi, is comparable to a nice and airy country lane whereas some of us are on an express highway on Fridays, every day of the week. In that case you can demand high rates and get the job.
That discussion has had two consequences for me: I have decided to give MY conditions right at the beginning: Payment within 30 days and NOT 45 or God forbid 60! I was caught once, not twice.
I will state my means of payment, not them. And if they are late in paying, I will raise my rates for the next job.
After all, agencies prefer to know who they are working with and know they can get all kinds of help and sometimes short unpaid work with regular translators who become almost partners then. It is a relationship worth preserving if they are happy with the work. Like all commercial ventures it is a sort of balancing act, but one must preserve one's dignity in order to work happily.
| | | | Carolyn Brice
Greece
Local time: 10:00
Member (2005)
French to English
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| Unreasonable rates | Jun 23, 2005 |
Rina1 wrote:
Dear Claudette,
I have to inform you that this practice is so ususal concerning offers to Serbian translators. Now, you can understand how much we are disappointed, confused and in a very bad position.
Most of agencies thought that my rates are sometimes very high and accepted to pay for Serbian translation 0.04 EUR/sw. It is something that Serbian translators have to deal with every day, I guess. As far as I know, some (read> most of )Greek agencies pay 0.03 EUR/sw.
Isn't it disparaging for translators???
This is true about Greek agencies, and I can tell you it is dificult to make a living with such rates. You may think that the cost of living in Greece is lower than continental Europe - not so! We've joined the Euro club, with the prices to go with it. Personnally I haven't given up my day job yet (teaching), while trying to make it as a translator. As a newbie, it's tough getting experience, and so it is tempting to drop rates, but I have done some voluntary translations to get experience. But I guess it'll take time...
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cendrine marrouat (X)
English to French
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| Unreasonable rates | Jun 23, 2005 |
Hi!
In my case, I have to work as a teacher too because translation doesn't give me enough work to live on. Even though I wrote to hundreds of agencies...
The rates you are talking about are also the same rates a lot of companies ask for English to French translations...
That's a shame...
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