| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Let´s do something Thread poster: Gerardo Comino
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| Would still constitute price fixing ......... | Dec 14, 2005 |
...and therefore not be legal IMO - apart from the obvious issue of what would be a "fair minimum rate", complicated by geography, different living standards etc.
Regards
D
| | | | | No, not impatient...........:) | Dec 14, 2005 |
English2French wrote: Deborah do Carmo wrote:
any competing site with evidence of such an anti-competitive stance (in the legal sense) would conceivably be able to take the matter to the Competition Board/Authority holding jurisdiction Sorry to abuse your patience (I can feel that you are getting impatient, you don't have to reply, I am just trying to understand). In the article you mentioned, I could not find who it was addressed to. Does it apply to ProZ? It seems to me that ProZ could be compared to a newspaper with an ad section. Surely the newspaper is free to publish whatever ads it wants to? Laure
Sorry if it came across that way...
There's just no way I could explain (in this type of forum and with present time constraints that I'm under) the full implications of competition law (or antitrust law as it's known in the US) as it would potentially apply to this situation, save and except to say it almost certainly would.
Yes, I'm quite sure it would apply to the ProZ situation and most probably to the individual translators who are its members, jurisdiction in this case could lie in a number of places, depending on the facts of the particular case.
A newspaper isn't free to publish exactly what it sees fit - every industry is governed by its own set of rules and overlapping rules of other industries.
And here, we are talking specifically about taking a decision NOT to publish something as part of a decision to set minimum prices - that is price fixing and involves competition law considerations.
Article 81 was just to show how things are governed in the EU, for example. Similar provisions apply for the US etc.
You'd need to go into some depth in EU Law to understand its application but (oversimplified) the EC Treaty is addressed to the Member States and automatically becomes part of the national law of the EU member states (unlike in the case of a EU directive, for example, which first has to be transposed into national law). Whether directly applicable or not, at the end of the day it affects you and me. (in the EU)
Hope that clarifies things a little.
D
[Edited at 2005-12-14 16:17]
| | | | Laure Delpech 
France
Local time: 22:23
Member (2004)
English to French
| Thank you for your explanations Deborah | Dec 14, 2005 |
Yes, it does clarify things.
It seems like we had best forget this particular idea then.
Laure
| | | | | Concerted price fixing, yes......... | Dec 14, 2005 |
English2French wrote:
Yes, it does clarify things.
It seems like we had best forget this particular idea then.
Laure
unfortunately ....
Bye for now
D
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Rafa Lombardino
United States
Local time: 13:23
Member (2005)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| Playing the devil's advocate... | Dec 14, 2005 |
I agree with the fact that there are many agencies — and even direct clients — who are looking for the lowest rate, regardless of quality. Unfortunately, this will always happen and is one of the principles of our global economy. All I believe we can do is not to reply to such offers when they don't interest us — or to only do so in case we're trying to acquire experience in a different field, which is still a plus for the client because you can probably offer a better quality in an area y... See more I agree with the fact that there are many agencies — and even direct clients — who are looking for the lowest rate, regardless of quality. Unfortunately, this will always happen and is one of the principles of our global economy. All I believe we can do is not to reply to such offers when they don't interest us — or to only do so in case we're trying to acquire experience in a different field, which is still a plus for the client because you can probably offer a better quality in an area you’ll have to intensely research than someone who does work as a professional in such are but has no experience as a translator.
Let’s keep something else in mind: not all translators live in the US or EU, where the currency is strong when compared to other countries. An accomplished translator in Mexico, India, Brazil, or China may believe that $0.02 / word is a great offer after they do the math into their local currencies.
Let me get personal for a while and say that when an English > BR Portuguese job paying $0.02 USD / word comes my way, I forward it to a Brazilian colleague. Should such document have 5,000 words, the total payment will be $100 USD. In Brazilian Reais, that is equivalent to R$224.65 -- which is about the monthly minimum wage for a Brazilian worker. Do you really think that a good Brazilian translator will turn his/her back to a day of work that pays the same as his/her fellow citizens are unfortunately only able to make in a whole month???
Honestly, we should be more worried about scammers who keep changing their business names and never intend to pay. These are the ones hurting any kind of translator, who’ll only realize that he/she has been scammed when it’s a little too late. Blocking foreign clients from posting good jobs that can be perfectly undertaken by great translators living abroad sounds highly unreasonable to me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: let's not judge. Not everybody who's up for a $0.02 USD or EURO / word is inexperienced or selling him/herself cheap. Reality is more than black and white when it comes down to rates & geography. So if you think that the rate is way too low for you, considering your living expenses and what you've been making while working for other companies, simply don't reply to the post. Better: forward to a professional you know who lives abroad. I'm sure our colleagues will appreciate it! ▲ Collapse
| | | | samnunns
Local time: 04:23
English to Chinese
+ ...
| It would be very unfair | Dec 15, 2005 |
...to both the outsourcers and the translators. Of course we'd all like our clients to pay a high rate for our work, but the truth is, where there's a need, there's a market. If an outsourcer who is only willing to provide very little money for some job and he can find a translator (even just a single one in the world), on what ground can you deprive him of his right? (It's also the translator's right to offer a very competitive rate.) In this situation, it just means the needs of the market can... See more ...to both the outsourcers and the translators. Of course we'd all like our clients to pay a high rate for our work, but the truth is, where there's a need, there's a market. If an outsourcer who is only willing to provide very little money for some job and he can find a translator (even just a single one in the world), on what ground can you deprive him of his right? (It's also the translator's right to offer a very competitive rate.) In this situation, it just means the needs of the market can be satisfied.
Here are some possibilities:
A) The translator provides service of (relatively) poor quality, and the outsourcer doesn't care about the quality as much as the price. So he's found the right man-- the outsourcer never intends to get a high-quality but expensive translator anyway.
B) The translator is very good, but for some reason he doesn't mind this kind of deal. (This is highly unlikely, I know, but I'm only talking about "possibilities".) If that's true, it's just the translator's right to make any kind of deals depending on his free will, isn't it? Actually, if the case is, generally good translators are offering rates a lot lower than mine, I'd consider my rates too high rather than theirs too low.
C) The outsourcer finds no one suitable for his job because the pay is too low. Apparently now there are only 2 options for him: prepare a bigger pay check or give up on the job. In this situation, what's to worry about?
In summary, I believe in free trades and free markets. "The invisible hand" will set the price -- in other words, supply and demand set the price. ▲ Collapse
| | | | samnunns
Local time: 04:23
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I can't agree more! | Dec 15, 2005 |
Rafa Lombardino wrote:
I agree with the fact that there are many agencies — and even direct clients — who are looking for the lowest rate, regardless of quality. Unfortunately, this will always happen and is one of the principles of our global economy. All I believe we can do is not to reply to such offers when they don't interest us — or to only do so in case we're trying to acquire experience in a different field, which is still a plus for the client because you can probably offer a better quality in an area you’ll have to intensely research than someone who does work as a professional in such are but has no experience as a translator.
Let’s keep something else in mind: not all translators live in the US or EU, where the currency is strong when compared to other countries. An accomplished translator in Mexico, India, Brazil, or China may believe that $0.02 / word is a great offer after they do the math into their local currencies.
Let me get personal for a while and say that when an English > BR Portuguese job paying $0.02 USD / word comes my way, I forward it to a Brazilian colleague. Should such document have 5,000 words, the total payment will be $100 USD. In Brazilian Reais, that is equivalent to R$224.65 -- which is about the monthly minimum wage for a Brazilian worker. Do you really think that a good Brazilian translator will turn his/her back to a day of work that pays the same as his/her fellow citizens are unfortunately only able to make in a whole month???
Honestly, we should be more worried about scammers who keep changing their business names and never intend to pay. These are the ones hurting any kind of translator, who’ll only realize that he/she has been scammed when it’s a little too late. Blocking foreign clients from posting good jobs that can be perfectly undertaken by great translators living abroad sounds highly unreasonable to me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: let's not judge. Not everybody who's up for a $0.02 USD or EURO / word is inexperienced or selling him/herself cheap. Reality is more than black and white when it comes down to rates & geography. So if you think that the rate is way too low for you, considering your living expenses and what you've been making while working for other companies, simply don't reply to the post. Better: forward to a professional you know who lives abroad. I'm sure our colleagues will appreciate it!
Rafa, I just can't agree more with you. I was only thinking about quoting some points from your context, but it's so to-the-point that I can't help quoting the whole thing!
| | | | Jianjun Zhang
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:23
English to Chinese
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| This is not true... | Dec 15, 2005 |
Rafa Lombardino wrote:
An accomplished translator in Mexico, India, Brazil, or China may believe that $0.02 / word is a great offer after they do the math into their local currencies.
Hi Rafa,
NO accomplished translator in China will accept 0.02 USD/word as a GREAT offer. Even they do the math into their local currencies! That price is a shame for any pro in China. I don't know what colleagues in Mexico, India and Brazil will think about this, however.
One guy in the USA once offered me 0.02 USD/word and told me in the ear that this was great price for me. I felt greatly humiliated and told him doubling that price won't meet my usual rate. What did he know about our market? What did he know about our living standard?
You can only hire a student fresh from school or a part-time translator to do translations at that rate. Because for the former, this would be his/her quickest way to get some money under belt before landing on some decent job, which is hard to find actually due to so many university graduates churned out by irresponsible and for-earning-money-not-for-giving-knowledge colleges each year; and for the latter, this would be a cool way to get some nice extra income. As a pro, not necessarily an established or accomplished one, accepting that price would not provide enough to live and save for insurance - no way for you to buy your own small apartment at that rate. I'd rather opt for teaching high school and earn much more than that with much more free time, leisure and health.
Let me get personal for a while and say that when an English > BR Portuguese job paying $0.02 USD / word comes my way, I forward it to a Brazilian colleague. Should such document have 5,000 words, the total payment will be $100 USD. In Brazilian Reais, that is equivalent to R$224.65 -- which is about the monthly minimum wage for a Brazilian worker. Do you really think that a good Brazilian translator will turn his/her back to a day of work that pays the same as his/her fellow citizens are unfortunately only able to make in a whole month???
This example is invalid. Few translators can do 5,000 words/day without quality problem. And few translators can guarantee they have stable projects each day, let alone each week or month. It seems to me that the lower the rate a translator quotes, the more words the guy promised to do in a day and consequently, and not surprisingly, less quality work he/she produces. I maintain a reasonable and higher rate (aligned with Chinese pro translator's average rate) and select the work I have confidence in and am busy 2/3 of a month most of the time. This way I can do my translation at a slower pace and better guarantee quality.
[Edited at 2005-12-15 06:12]
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Rafa Lombardino
United States
Local time: 13:23
Member (2005)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| Each case is different | Dec 15, 2005 |
Jianjun Zhang wrote:
NO accomplished translator in China will accept 0.02 USD/word as a GREAT offer. Even [if] they do the math into their local currencies! That price is a shame for any pro in China.
Again, let's not judge or generalize. I know translators in China who would not feel bad by accepting such job and Chinese agencies who also use such rate in dollars even when trying to hire translators that live abroad (outside of China, in this case). But then, I believe it all depends on the status of the translator: is the professional working full time as a translator? Part time? Does it on the side while studying? Does it on the side while working in another profession (thus specializing in one area)?
One guy in the USA once offered me 0.02 USD/word and told me in the ear that this was great price for me. I felt greatly humiliated and told him doubling that price won't meet my usual rate. What did he know about our market? What did he know about our living standard?
Well, one cannot really know about someone's living standard, unless one has direct contact with such person. Maybe those Chinese translators I know have a different status from yours, therefore they would accept such jobs. The only standard we can really analyze here is the currency exchange.
You can only hire a student fresh from school or a part-time translator to do translations at that rate. (...) As a pro, not necessarily an established or accomplished one, accepting that price would not provide enough to live and save for insurance - no way for you to buy your own small apartment at that rate.
Once again, we cannot generalize. And, who would say that you would ONLY get jobs for that rate? This could be a one-time thing or one client for a discounted price. We have to go through a sort of reality check and understand that the world economy is not as leveled as we'd wish it to be. And that’s how we make our choices when accepting our jobs, besides the corresponding language pair we work with and the areas we are suitable to cover. What I charge my American and European clients, for example, I cannot apply to my clients in New Zealand and Israel. I myself decided to establish that connection with agencies that are literally on the other side of the world for me and I work for a slightly lower rate in very interesting projects. But that doesn't mean that I only depend on them.
That was my choice to open my horizons and have different experiences. And, gladly, these clients understand that if I'm busy with a higher-paying job at the same moment they have something for me, I'll politely decline and get them in contact with one of my colleagues. I've done this several times and they keep coming back to me, despite of the great experiences that they've had with the freelancers I've recommended.
From my personal perspective, I believe that one should establish good and solid contact with a varied group of potential employers, so that you can create your own options and not depend on one or two clients. I like the challenge of it.
Few translators can do 5,000 words/day without quality problem. And few translators can guarantee they have stable projects each day, let alone each week or month. It seems to me that the lower the rate a translator quotes, the more words the guy promised to do in a day and consequently, and not surprisingly, less quality work he/she produces. I maintain a reasonable and higher rate (aligned with Chinese pro translator's average rate) and select the work I have confidence in and am busy 2/3 of a month most of the time. This way I can do my translation at a slower pace and better guarantee quality.
Since we're talking about very distinct languages, it's hard to use the words/day rate as a standard. I'll get personal again to illustrate my point of view: I have to tell you that it took me two days once to cover 10,152 words of a magazine into my native language. I worked for eight hours on a Thursday and translated the whole thing. On Friday, I went through the whole document and checked the spelling, corrected my mistakes, polished the writing according to the authors' intentions. By that evening, the client had the magazine back and I've been receiving new issues quarterly.
Does it mean I’m better than anyone else? NO. Here are the factors that influenced my output: (1) I’m a journalist, so I’m used to the writing style. (2) The translation was from Eng > Port. (3) I've been typing on a professional level for 13 years now, so I acquired a comfortable speed. (4) TRADOS really helped, so I didn't have to go up and down the pages to have the exact same headline and byline and such, so it saved me some time...
As you can see, the status of the translator is what will really matter. And I don’t mean quality status here. I mean experience, of course, but I also mean time availability, tools at hand, physical space, etc. That is why we cannot generalize. Not everybody can do it, I know. It depends on several factors. I'm a full-time translator and only work as a project manager when a client requests a different language pair for the same project I'm covering (for example, I work on the Eng>Port and I contact one of my freelancers to cover Eng>Ger). I don't have kids and have a nice office that helps me isolate myself and concentrate on work. I usually work 6 to 8 hours a day and keep a good queue of jobs.
Mine is only one perspective. Someone that has a different professional status will have different needs, a different routine, different clients, and different rates. And when we talk about daily output, the language pair you work with is a huge factor. I don't know Chinese, but I believe that it takes a little longer to do a good job translating from English than it would for someone working with Latin languages, which have a closer approximation to grammar and writing style.
But, going back to the rate and keeping the example of Brazil, which is the only background I truly have. I know Brazilians who won't accept a job paying less than $0.06 USD / word (R$0,14 in local currency) and I know others who would work for R$4,00 / page (=$1.75 USD). One is not better than the other; one is used to a different reality than the other. The one that accepts the lower rate can be either accomplished and working part-time or a student, as in your example. We will never know and never be able to generalize until we learn about each isolated case.
This brings me to my point. All I'm trying to say is that the initial proposition made by our colleague — that Proz.com should establish a minimum rate/word that potential employers should follow and, consequently, ban any agency who tries to pay for less than we deserve — is a generalization. Nobody here knows what one “deserves”. It would be wonderful to have all translators in the world prosper by making $0.10 EURO / word, but that's utopia, unfortunately. The translation community is still struggling with much more than just rates, as educating the client, for example. We’re still trying to be recognized as professionals, trying to tell some people that we’re not machines that have memorized a dictionary while trying to convince others that computers cannot be translators…
Another colleague made a good point when saying that Proz.com is not "the market". Certainly, some Prozians have used this site as a reference to meet most of their recurring clients, but that doesn't mean that there's no market outside of Proz.com. Therefore, it sure would be nice to have this channel here open to different kinds of professionals, with different realities and different needs. Doing otherwise would be a kind of segregation.
I believe there's work for everybody out there who's serious about being a professional translator and it would be a shame not to give some of these professionals a chance to establish satisfying contacts for themselves. What cannot be good for us, can be good for them. Shutting down this door is creating an artificial condition that does not reflect the real market out there.
| | | | Rafa Lombardino
United States
Local time: 13:23
Member (2005)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| Excerpt from a book | Dec 16, 2005 |
What a coincidence! I've been reading "The Translator's Handbook" (SOFER, Morry. Schreiber Publishing, Inc. 5th Edition) because it's part of the Extension Course that the University of California - San Diego offers in the translation field. During my lunch break, I've read a related section to this topic and would like to take the opportunity to "get words from someone else's mouth":
Pricing Yourself. One of the first lessons a freelance translator learns is that not all translation jobs are created equal. By that I mean, like a good businessperson, you learned how to price each job, and either accept it or reject it. I have dealt with many freelance translators in many different languages who decide beforehand that — like a lawyer at a high-powered law firm — they will not offer their services for less than, say, a hundred dollars an hour or twenty cents per word. Now granted, there are a few translation and interpretation jobs around that will pay these high rates. But they are few and far between. I may be moving in the wrong circles, but quite frankly, while I have seen such rates being paid, they were quite exceptional, and I personally don't know any freelance translator who gets them on a regular basis.
The name of the game is earning money on a steady basis, not once in a blue moon. And to do so, one has to be flexible. Many a time I agreed to do a translation job for a client for less than it was worth, but my payoff often came when, soon thereafter, the same client, valuing the quality of my work and my near-fanatic adherence to deadlines, came back to me with another, often urgent job, and this time I charged a higher rate, which made up for the shortfall the first time around. In short, you quickly learn in this business that your potential clients e almost always looking for a bargain. While they many not argue with their doctor or lawyer or even plumber about their rates, you can rest assured they will argue with you, and will always try at least one or two of your competitors, hoping to get a better rate. You have to be prepared to do "creative rate structuring" if you are to get that coveted job.
How do you know how much to charge for your services? There is no easy answer to this question, as any professional translator knows. A lot depends on who your clients are. [...] The rule of thumb is supply and demand. If the client can get it cheaper, you may not get that job. You have to establish for yourself what one may call a realistic rate.
To begin with, written translation work is normally charged by the word. I have known good, fast translators who made a good living getting as little as 3 or 4 cents per word (time is the real measure of your translation earning. The more words per hour you can translate accurately, the more you will earn). Many translators will be shocked to hear this. They will call these rates "slave wages," and refuse to talk to me again. These days the range of 7 to 10 cents per word for translations from a foreign language into English, and 8 to 12 cents per word for translations from English into a foreign language is considered normal. [...]
To reiterate: Try to charge your better paying clients more and those less capable of paying, less. Always look at the greater picture of your total yearly earnings, rather than getting yourself hung up on each case, giving the client and yourself a hard time. Flexibility is the secret weapon of the freelancer.[/quote]
| | | | Marc P (X)
Local time: 22:23
German to English
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| "get words from someone else's mouth" | Dec 16, 2005 |
Rafa, if you're going to quote Morry Sofer's view, then I'm going to add my 2 cents:
In short, you quickly learn in this business that your potential clients e almost always looking for a bargain. [/quote]
This is a grave misconception. In most cases, potential customers are not looking for a bargain, but for good value. They are looking for a good price, but there is still widespread acceptance of the old adage that you get what you pay for.
While they many not argue with their doctor or lawyer or even plumber about their rates, you can rest assured they will argue with you, and will always try at least one or two of your competitors, hoping to get a better rate.
I take serious issue with this view. It assumes that translation is a commodity, and that negotiations with customers will always be focussed on price. This is one of the biggest causes of grief in the translation industry. Translation is not a commodity. (Nor for that matter are medical, legal or plumbing services, which is why customers invariably don't haggle with these professionals over prices; I wonder why this doesn't seem to have occurred to some people, including people who consider themselves qualified to dispense business advice). If you want to be successful, you need to be able to convince customers that your service is the most suitable for their needs. Price is only one aspect of that, and by no means necessarily the most important. On the contrary, far too many translators assume that their customers already know what the translation is worth to them, and don't make any effort to sell the benefits of a high standard of service.
You have to be prepared to do "creative rate structuring" if you are to get that coveted job.
Another misconception: that you have to get that job at any price. If getting it means taking a serious cut in revenue, then perhaps it shouldn't be so coveted. There is obviously something to be said for a flexible rates structure. But at the same time, if you're not losing at least some work because you're too expensive, you can safely assume that you're too cheap.
How do you know how much to charge for your services? There is no easy answer to this question, as any professional translator knows. A lot depends on who your clients are. quote]
Making your rates dependent upon your clients is one approach. Another is to make your clients dependent upon your rates, i.e. target clients who value the service you are offering and are willing to pay a reasonable price for it.
The rule of thumb is supply and demand.
The rule of thumb is NOT supply and demand, because translation is not a commodity (see above). The key to success lies in positioning yourself as being the best and ideally only supplier capable of satisfying a particular demand.
If the client can get it cheaper, you may not get that job.
No. If the client can get the SAME THING cheaper, or more specifically what the client considers to be the same thing, then you may not get that job. You need only look around this site - and read the discussions of this subject, which recur with monotonous frequency - to see that some suppliers are offering 3 cents a word, which is obviously far cheaper than the 6 cents a word that others are offering. But some are offering 12 cents a word, and others still will tell you that 12 cents a word is peanuts. Customers aren't stupid; those willing to pay 12 (or for that matter 18) cents a word are well aware that they can get "a translation" cheaper, but that they are unlikely to get the same thing for 6 cents, never mind 3.
You have to establish for yourself what one may call a realistic rate.
Again, no. What you have to do is to establish IN YOUR CUSTOMER'S MIND first what an appropriate standard of service is, and then what a realistic rate is for that service.
Marc
| | | | Fred Neild (X)
English to Spanish
+ ...
I was trying to read through the postings without getting into the discussion (again) until...
Rafa Lombardino wrote:
Let me get personal for a while and say that when an English > BR Portuguese job paying $0.02 USD / word comes my way, I forward it to a Brazilian colleague.
Your Brazilian colleagues charge very low, even for Brazil, or at least São Paulo, where I live. Here US$0.04 is low, below that...
Rafa Lombardino wrote:
Should such document have 5,000 words, the total payment will be $100 USD. In Brazilian Reais, that is equivalent to R$224.65 -- which is about the monthly minimum wage for a Brazilian worker. Do you really think that a good Brazilian translator will turn his/her back to a day of work that pays the same as his/her fellow citizens are unfortunately only able to make in a whole month???
Sure. I would turn it down without a second thought. Thank God I don't live on minimum wage.
No translator lives on a minimum wage in Brazil. Who told you that? Do you think translators here build computers with sugar? I know you are trying to say translators who charge these prices are not evil, I agree. But, 1) they are not full-time(they can't be living on these rates) 2) they are not only in Brazil, or in developing countries.
I can assure you that there are many translators from developed countries charging very low rates.
[Edited at 2005-12-16 15:48]
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Rafa Lombardino
United States
Local time: 13:23
Member (2005)
English to Portuguese
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| Misunderstanding | Dec 16, 2005 |
Fred Neild wrote:
No translator lives on a minimum wage in Brazil. Who told you that?
Firstly, I never said that translators live on a minimum wage in Brazil. The ones I know don’t, by the way. All I was trying to do is make a reasonable comparison from the economical point of view and state the fact that there are different statuses of translators. Unfortunately, we do have a very low minimum wage in Brazil, which has been (wrongly) established by the government as a way of measuring purchase power and living standards. Maybe I was looking too much into it as a bad habit of my old days as a data analyst working at a social-economical research institution…
If you're a freelancer, it already means that you have some kind of freedom to decide when to work, who to work for, and for how much. It may be tricky sometimes without the safety net of a steady paycheck, but that's what allows you not to be bound to a company that may not value your work. When you're selling your own product (which is your translation abilities), you may negotiate with some educated clients and get what you are worth. You may also choose not to work with uneducated clients (and there's a bunch out there), who'll offer you something in a field (or even a language!) you don't work with and then won't understand why you turned down the job.
Fred Neild wrote:
Do you think translators here build computers with sugar?
Due to your other remark, I'll have to explain once again what I meant by statuses: some are freelancers working full time and others, part time; some specialize in one area (let's say, construction) because they are active professionals in the respective field (let's say, a civil engineer). This is the difference in status I'm trying to state from my point of view. You really made it sound as if I were putting some translators up in the social scale and others way down due to their geographical locations. This is completely wrong!
I got deeply offended by your comment because I'm also from the "here" you mention. If anyone said that to me, I'd get back to such prejudiced person with some reality check and recommend some history classes for them to expand their horizons. Actually, I've heard such comments before coming from narrow-minded people that never stepped down their pedestal in an economic powerhouse city who'd ask me, “How do you manage to get computers working in Brazil if you don't even have electricity and live in little huts?” I honestly don’t appreciate your putting me in the same bag as these prejudiced people.
What I unfortunately see is a direct relationship between such narrow-mindedness that also makes some professionals say that potential clients (mostly not from the US or EU) should be banned from this website because they're offering low rates. Nobody seems to stop for a second and consider the fact that if they offer $0.02 USD / word, this may convert into their national currency as $0.26 (Estonian Kroon), $0.67 (Belgium Franc), $5.68 (Greek Drachma), $10.34 (Chilean Peso), or $45.54 (Colombian Peso).
If one really believes that Proz.com should use such a filter, then it should follow this extreme and allow its services to be used only by Platinum Members who have the resources to pay for the membership or — to better follow this unrealistic reasoning — only by those translators who prove in advance that they make more than $100,000 US / year. Is that annual income good enough, or do you think that someone making this much is selling himself/herself cheap?
When I made a comment about the 2-cent job, all I did was say that there's something called "currency exchange" and that some professionals living in countries where euros and dollars are at the moment valued more than their national currencies in the market could accept ONE assignment paying this much if they feel it’s appropriate. I certainly wouldn't accept such a job because its rate is too low considering San Diego standards. By the way, I do work for $0.04 sometimes, depending on the client’s location and nature of the job and — wow! — I’m constantly working for free for some not-for-profit clients, as well as dedicating my free time to open source projects! (Have you ever heard of those individual developers who create wonderful computer programs that are distributed for free over the internet? And please, look up “open source” before mistaking it by piracy, since these good souls are some incarnations away from being Bill Gates!)
I think some may deserve a sarcasm alert for the previous paragraph… I believe that the same narrow-minded people will think that I’m wrong when donating my time as a translator and working on not-for-profit projects. I like doing it because it makes me feel good that I’m actually in a position now where I can do it and help great organizations or great minds reach an audience that, otherwise, wouldn’t be able to get the help being offered, be it by an organization that fights against domestic violence or by a great “geek” who has developed the computer tool that was a missing link for our daily lives…
Finally, I'd like to remind everybody that, in our business, it all depends on the translator, on the assignment, and on a dozen more circumstantial facts. I'm not saying that translators who live in countries where the national currency is not as strong as euros and dollars only deserve to be paid that much. That is why you're a freelancer: you have the power to offer your services to whomever you feel it's appropriate according to your reality and shouldn’t be judged by those who are in a better economic position!
The question here, that by the way started the thread, was whether Proz.com should establish a minimum rate that potential clients are obligated to go by when posting a job. My answer was a big fat "no" because what is not good for someone living in city A could be enough for someone living in city B due to the different reality that such geographical distance makes. All I'm saying is that professionals living in other realities that are different from ours do deserve to have access to job offers just as much as those who charge $0.15 / word do.
| | | | Fred Neild (X)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Wow Client Portfolio | Dec 16, 2005 |
Rafa Lombardino wrote:
The question here, that by the way started the thread, was whether Proz.com should establish a minimum rate that potential clients are obligated to go by when posting a job. My answer was a big fat "no".
Although for different reasons my answer to the thread is also a 'No'.
I believe both Ralf and Deborah have already provided very sound opinions on the matter.
However, one of the problems is that 'the translation world' sometimes seems to be living on an island. And that would be probably great.
The problem is 1) clients don't live on this island; 2) we should behave as a class. Actually, I have raised my rates after one of the numerous forums of Proz.com on this matter (i.e. low rates). It doesn't really made much difference since there is always a lower rate, so I wasn't getting any jobs from Proz.com, and I am still not getting them, haha.
It is very hard to get clients, at least for me. I have to invest money and time. So, why waste resources on clients that will hire another translator/agency whenever they get a lower rate?
Gerardo, as I have said before (in other forums). You shouldn't worry with lower rates. Somebody will always have better rates than you. The thing is about building a Wow Client Portfolio.
[Edited at 2005-12-16 17:20]
| | | | Rafa Lombardino
United States
Local time: 13:23
Member (2005)
English to Portuguese
+ ...
| Investing in yourself | Dec 19, 2005 |
Fred Neild wrote:
It is very hard to get clients, at least for me. I have to invest money and time. So, why waste resources on clients that will hire another translator/agency whenever they get a lower rate?
Well, than the problem itself is not related to job offers with low rates. Maybe what's getting in the way is how one perceives the website and the market as a whole.
As one of our colleagues mentioned earlier, Proz.com is not the market itself. I like thinking that it is a mere online "reflection" of it, if you will. It's a sample of what is "out of the island" -- to use your metaphor.
As freelancers, we do have to invest a lot in ourselves. Budgeting is the key here. The more you make, the more you can invest back into your business. First, you start investing a lot of time in networking and marketing yourself using cheaper or free resources. I found that professional websites showing a sample of your work, a list of clients, and your online portfolio (make sure that your clients approve of you posting such information beforehand) works pretty well. If you sign up with a good established hosting company, you may pay $8 / month and set up your own website for free, if you have knowledge in the area, or seek advice of friends (sometimes a nice dinner will be a thoughtful payment) or students looking for an intern gig (their quotes are lower than those from IT professionals, but we already know that it happens in every market, uh?)
Getting a little off-topic here, I'll get personal one more time. 2006 will be my third year working as a full-time translator and I have to say that, after I took the plunge and decided to dedicate myself solely to this profession after finishing college, I had to dedicate a lot of time during my first year to networking and marketing my services. While between projects, I started offering my services to those not-for-profit organizations and working on localization for free software products. Voluntary work really looks good on your portfolio and, even though it's not a paid gig, you're able to remain flexible to keep on investing in yourself.
For the last two years, it's been paying off. I've been getting an average of eight new clients through Proz.com and other translation communities a year. At least four of those keep coming back on a monthly basis; two are really seasonal, while others only needed a one-time project done but work as great referrals.
By getting more jobs, we could afford to registering our agency's name with the county, setting up our website, becoming a platinum member with Proz.com (which we chose among the other communities to be my main online source), buying Trados and other computer software that will save us time and improve our end product, and becoming a member of the ATA and the local Better Business Bureau.
Due to this exposure, new clients have contacted us directly after finding our information online and checking our experiences. Surprisingly enough, even translation professionals with whom we had never worked before have also recommended our services to the agencies they were working for after their project managers asked them to look for colleagues who could provide services on a new language pair.
All in all, we do have to invest a lot in the beginning, but it can pay it off in the end if you really stick to it. That's one of the responsibilities of a freelancer. You have to protect yourself, market yourself, and literally fight for yourself because nobody else will.
But if one already has a negative perspective of the business, wondering if clients will look somewhere else as soon as they see that a competidor is offering half of one's rate/word... Then one's hardly going to get out of the vicious circle of small/one-time projects and build up a clients list.
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