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Payment problems with French agency
Thread poster: Peters Trans

Peters Trans
France
Local time: 08:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
Feb 10, 2006

I am writing to you to ask for your advice on how to handle with a problem I'm having with a French agency.

They contacted me in late October 05 offering me an urgent job, initial pay wasn't offered wasn't great but I managed to increase it a bit. I had initially three days to translate some 10000 words, but they delivered late, so time was reduced to two days (and one of these days was a public holiday).

I searched them on the BB, but unfortunately didn't find them (see below). My contact seemed nice and flexible, promised more future work if all went well. I was provided with a TM which turned out to be empty! So then client told the agnecy to tell the translator to "literally" translate the technical terminology, and they would corret it. Fine.

So they accepted (via email) my quote with my payment conditions of 30 days after invoice. I start the job as there's a rush but still without a PO, yet that's on the way, then a while later I'm emailed "would you mind waiting until next week for the PO as the person who does them is away". I started to have my doubts, but said ok, but I want you to return my email with my quote stating that you accept my offer.
Due to lack of time, I had to turn to two colleagues to help me, both proz.com members, and with year's of experience and I know their work is reliable. I contacted the agency about this to make sure they didn't mind if I outsourced part of the work due to time restrictions, and they said "wonderful, no prblem at all!".
Delivered job on time, yet had a problem when putting it all together and waisted 3 hours trying to reformat it... Advised them of this, I wasn't to worry, anyway, they're a serious agency and would check the work before delivering to the client, so I just did a quick spell-check and quick proofing, not as thorough as usual though due to the time restrictions, but I knew any serious agency with all their publicised quality guarantees would check the document before delivering to the client... which of course they didn't do!
Anyway, they seemed happy, and sent me two more jobs.
A few days later I contact them to get details for the invoice, and they tell me there's no rush as THEIR payment conditions are actually on the 5th of the month 60 days after the invoice which is only accepted on the last day of the month it is sent. So basically I was sending invoice on November 2nd or 3rd, but they wouldn't accept it until Nov. 30th. Well what could I do, but express that they were not my conditions, but I would make this one exception for them.
Then I had problems getting some of their details for my invoice, causing a further delay. When I finally had all their details, and without word from them regarding the translation delivered a month ago, 2 minutes after sending the invoice I get e-mailed saying their client was extremely unsatisfied with my work (for the large job of course, not the small ones). When did you find out I asked, surprised that I hadn't been informed. "Oh, just half an hour ago" and they've already sent it to a proofreader and they will discount the proofreading fees from my invoice. Finding all this a little strange, I demanded to be given the contact details of the proof-reader, which in fairness they finally gave. Made contact with her and have an excellent professional relationship with her now. She had actualy received the document a week earlier, and not that morning as I was told... why did they lie to me? She said the job was ok, but there were some errors (mainly typos and still some formatting problems) which she accepted were due to the rush job we had to do, the fact that 3 translators worked on it with too little time to properly coordinate the job and that the agency clearly doesn't check the work before sending to their clients, as they claim to do so.
So lots of discussions, in the end my client isn't happy, so I accept to discount proofreading fees. Got contacted in early January about the invoice (I though great, they're getting ready to pay) tobtell me I had made a mistake and it should actually be cheaper, it actually worked out great as I had made a mistake, but had undercharged them slightly, which they couldn't deny!
Pay date according to their terms was January 25th, nothing arrived...
My first remindr by email: response: we've forwarded your email to our accounts department (this in a company which I believe only has four employees!).
7 days pass without news, so i send a harsher email: no answer.
Following day sent a serious email: they apologies and tell me that now their director was planning on contacting all their freelancers the following day.
Following day comes and passes without word from their director.
Yesterday, 3 emails ignored. Sent a very harsh email giving a deadline for payment. My initial contact, the nicest of them, answers saying another person has taken over accounts and would contact within 24 hours probably.
Not happy I emailed all the addresses of the agency with a formal letter which I said was also being sent by registered post this morning. This is the response I got this morning (only in French, sorry, will translate later if any of you want to know):

Monsieur

Je reprends à ce jour le dossier du paiement des sous-traitants de la société X (the agency). Dorénavant, je serai votre unique contact à ce suet.

Je suis désolée pour le retard de paiement. En effet, nous avons par habitude de respecter nos délais de paiement, et de payer nos sous-traitants en une seule échéance.

Malheureusement, des contingences particulières ont engendré ces derniers temps des retards de paiement conséquents.

En effet, l'année 2005 a vu pour XXX(the agency) une chute du chiffre d'affaires, qui a engendré d'importantes restructurations au sein de la société. Le règlement de ces problèmes est en cours, et le début de l'année 2006 devrait voir une remontée de notre chiffre d'affaires, nous permettant dans les mois à venir d'honorer l'ensemble de nos dettes vis-à-vis de nos sous-traitants.

A ce jour, je ne suis pasz en mesure de vous donner une date de paiement précise pour la facture mentionnée. Vous me voyez désolée de ne pas pouvoir vous fournir une réponse plus précise.

Je ne manquerai pas de vous informer dès que notre trésorerie nous permettra d'honorer notre dette envers vous.

Bien cordialement
X

What do you think I should do. With the reduction I gave them, they still owe me some €700, without the reduction which I feel like cancelling as they haven't honoured any of their committments, would bring the amount to around € 1100.

On a side note, I later found them on the BB. 6 posts (one is mine) 5 giving a LWA of 1 and one of 4, yet this person also criticises their payment. Fellow proz members post on the BB about their delayed or non-payment problems, some saying they are owed thousands of euros!

I've just become a daddy for the first time three weeks ago, and so all the money I can get is necessary, and this is turning into a matter of principle.

I would appreciate any suggestions on what to do. I've been in France for only 3 years and ahve never faced these problems. I did have similar problems in the past in Spain and know how to deal with it there, but not so sure about france.

[Edited at 2006-02-10 14:36]


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Soren Petersen
United States
Local time: 01:10
Member
English to Danish
+ ...
Gist of reply? Feb 10, 2006

Hi Peter,

Can you summarize what the agency replied to you in their e-mail?

I have had problems with dodgy agencies as well, but fortunately they gave in after quite a few e-mails.

Cheers,
Soren


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Peters Trans
France
Local time: 08:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Response to Soren Feb 10, 2006

Søren Petersen wrote:

Hi Peter,

Can you summarize what the agency replied to you in their e-mail?

I have had problems with dodgy agencies as well, but fortunately they gave in after quite a few e-mails.

Cheers,
Soren


Hi Soren...

See you're based in my homeland of Ireland... hope you're happy there!

Quick translation of the above email from them:
******************
Dear sir,

As of today I am taking charge of accounts with subcontractors for our company. From now on, I will be your sole contact for this purpose.

I regret the delay in payment. We generally respect our payment deadlines, and to pay our subcontractors in one installment.

Unfortunately, certain circumstances have caused delays in payments in recent times.

2005 has seen a serious drop in our turnover and which has caused serious restructuring of our company. We are correcting these problems, and the beginning of 2006 should see an increase in our turnover, thus enabling us to honour all our debts with our subcontractors.

Nevertheless, today I am in no position to give you a preise date for the payment for your invoice. I hope you see I regret not being able to give you a more precise response to your email.

I will nevertheless inform you once our finances allow us to face our debts with you.

Kind regards,
**************************
As you can see, they are as polie as ever. This email hasn't surprised me. As I said BB reports delayed payments back to 2003 so this is nothing new. I ask, a. why didn't they inform me of these problems when offering me the job, maybe I would have declined the job, or given their honesty I may have accepted the risk, and b. why has it taken so long for them to tell me what I already imagined.

I want to get this money asap and say AU REVOIR to these people for good. Any suggestions will be much appreciated.


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Sara Freitas
France
Local time: 08:10
French to English
You should probably remove the name of the agency from your post Feb 10, 2006

And something about copying and pasting a private e-mail into a public forum makes me uncomfortable, but maybe I am being too sensitive.

It sounds like you need to find out if the company is in bankruptcy.

If not, notify them by registered letter that they must pay you within a week.

If you still don't receive payment, you can apply to the local court for an "injonction de faire payer" (search forums for info).

Sounds like this job was a nightmare from the start. Always follow your instinct and if you have the least doubt abut the company, turn the job down.

Regards,

Sara


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Peters Trans
France
Local time: 08:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Merci Sara! Feb 10, 2006

Sara Freitas-Maltaverne wrote:

And something about copying and pasting a private e-mail into a public forum makes me uncomfortable, but maybe I am being too sensitive.

It sounds like you need to find out if the company is in bankruptcy.

If not, notify them by registered letter that they must pay you within a week.

If you still don't receive payment, you can apply to the local court for an "injonction de faire payer" (search forums for info).

Sounds like this job was a nightmare from the start. Always follow your instinct and if you have the least doubt abut the company, turn the job down.

Regards,

Sara


Yes I'll look into the "injonction"... do you know who I can find out if the company is in bankruptcy?

I will start off with the registered letter which I'm currently working on.

I was notified by email by another memebr informing me that I had accidentally left the name of the agency in my post, which I have since quickly deleted. Thanks.

I understand where you're coming from regarding posting a personal letter, but to be honest as it doesn't name any of the paries, I'm sure it's ok. If any of you are aware that I am in brach of any law or even Proz regulation for posting a copy of the letter, please let me know and I'll delete immediately.

[Edited at 2006-02-10 12:22]


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 08:10
English to German
+ ...
Report non-payment through the BB Feb 10, 2006

Hi all,
I trust you're aware of the ProZ.com Termination Policy. While neither ProZ.com nor the Jobs/BB moderators are in a position to collect receivables, we can (and will) at least make sure that non-paying outsourcers cannot post jobs on ProZ.com.

However, this requires that you use the non-payment complaint function that is offered automatically if you post a Blue Board entry with a LWA of 1 or 2. Outsourcers with two or more pending non-payment complaints are flagged to Jobs/BB moderators.

Peter, can you please contact me through my profile, indicating which outsourcer you're referring to?

Thanks, Ralf


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Sara Freitas
France
Local time: 08:10
French to English
http://www.societe.com/ Feb 10, 2006

You can look up solvency information here. Some levels of info are free, others you must order.

Might be cheaper just to apply for the court order (I did it last year and it costs around 30 euros including tax).

Good luck. The registered letter will probably work. It is the first step in the legal debt collection process and is usually enough to get results.

Sara


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Sarah McGrane Gonzalez
Local time: 07:10
Spanish to English
Perhaps you can help Feb 14, 2006

Hi Peter,

I can fully sympathise with your situation as I am in a similar with a Spanish company. I understand that your posting was to get assistance in this regard but I noted that you said you knew how to deal with this situation in Spain and I was wondering if you might have some ideas for me.

I have spent the last 6 months trying to get paid by this company, who originally responded by consistently telling me it had been passed to accounts. Then asking for reformating of the invoice etc.

I sent a mail today saying I was going to pass the issue to my legal representative as I am really at the end of my rope here. My problem is that I am based in Ireland so contracting a Spanish lawyer from here and all involved will be very complicated and hardly worth it for the sum involved *approx 400euros.

Could you or anybody tell me how they dealt with this in the past and what their advice would be?

Many, many thanks,

Sarah


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Peters Trans
France
Local time: 08:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Spanish payment!!! Feb 15, 2006

Sarah McGrane Gonzalez wrote:

Hi Peter,

I can fully sympathise with your situation as I am in a similar with a Spanish company. I understand that your posting was to get assistance in this regard but I noted that you said you knew how to deal with this situation in Spain and I was wondering if you might have some ideas for me.

I have spent the last 6 months trying to get paid by this company, who originally responded by consistently telling me it had been passed to accounts. Then asking for reformating of the invoice etc.

I sent a mail today saying I was going to pass the issue to my legal representative as I am really at the end of my rope here. My problem is that I am based in Ireland so contracting a Spanish lawyer from here and all involved will be very complicated and hardly worth it for the sum involved *approx 400euros.

Could you or anybody tell me how they dealt with this in the past and what their advice would be?

Many, many thanks,

Sarah


Hi Sarah,

I spent ten years in Madrid... a wonderful city yet a little "agobiante" to work in. And I'm sorry to say this and I don't want to offend any of our Spanish colleagues, as believe me I love Spain, my wife is Spanish, and I feel nearly just as Spanish as Irish, but... doing business with many (not all) Spaniards is a nightmare.

Your situation brings back many memories Sarah. The passing onto the accounts department (this was usuaally step 2, step 1 being told that they hadn't received the invoice...), then step 3 was that the invoice didn't fit in with their requirements and being asked to reformat it, add new information, delete other information (this used to really annoy me as I have never dealt with another country where I'm asked to reformat "my" invoices!). If they suggest paying you by cheque, say NO Sarah, as this may give them the chance to offer the following excuses (cheque was sent, but post is slow at the moment, then cheque must have got lost in the post, and finally cheque arrives, and in my experience, they frequently bounce, which isn't much of a problem in Spain, unlike here in France where I now live, where if you sent a chaque that bounces, it's blood expensive (charges) and three cheques bounced can lead to you being blacklisted by the Banque de France and lots of other nasty things. So Sarah, insist on a transfer providing your IBAN and BIC and insist that there are NO charges as it's an intra-Euro zone transfer.

When in Spain, normal payment terms are 90 days, and it is from day 91 that they'll start looking for all the abovementioned excuses to stall the payment. You're at 6 months now, which is generally the time when you can expect payment.

The one good thing I can say in favour of the Spaniards, is even though they stall payment as much as possible, they're honest people and will usually eventually pay you. It's the opposite here in France and other countries I work with, in which by 90 days after invoice, you can say good riddance to payment. The fact that your client responds to you and doesn't ignore, is a good sign.

All I can say is INSISIR, INSISTIR e INSISTIR until you become so "pesada" that they'll pay you just to stop receiving your endless phone calls and emails. In my experience, it's not a good idea to get too nasty with late payers in Spain, remain civil, be understanding yet firm, explain that you understand their difficulties but that you'd really appreciate the payment as you're in a tight position. This worked 95% of the time for me. I had many clients like this in Spain, often waiting 180 days for payment, but I remained on good terms with them, continued accepting work once I saw that they would eventually pay. This is why managing your cashflow can be a total nightmare over there.

I never resorted to a lawyer in Spain for payment issues as I always managed to get my payment as described above. I think in my ten years in Spain I only had two non-payments, and in these cases the clients just mysteriously disappeared from the face of the earth.

I'd wait another month Sarah, before getting too nasty with them. Just hassle them on a daily basis for the rest of the month and see what happens. I never had to resort to a debt collection agency, so maybe somebody else can give you more information on this. Maybe ask at the Spanish embassy in Dublin, they're a very kind bunch there. I'm sure you could also check with the Casa de Irlanda in Madrid (Irish embassy).

Keep me informed and don't hesitate to send me an instant message if I can be of further assisstance.

Peter


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Peters Trans
France
Local time: 08:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Continuation of my saga with a French agency Feb 18, 2006

As stated before, jobs done end of October and 1st to 8th of November. On 8th I was about to send invoice and they said I could wait until the end of the month if I wanted to send a monthly invoice and as there may be morejobs before month-end. There terms, not stated until after the first three jobs are 60 days following invoice on the 5th of the following month. My invoice is dated November 27th and clearly states payment by Jan. 27th, and they never objected to this. Yet I admit silly me, I didn't e-mail it until Dec. 2nd! So I suppose this is why they now clail they're not late, while a week ago they limited themselves to telling me they were having financial difficulties due to downturn in 2005 turnover and were in noposition to say when they'd be able to pay me!? I sent a "relance de paiement et mise en demeure" by registered post over 1 week ago. Strangely I still haven't received the confirmation of receipt, but I emailed on Thursday to see if they had received it and they said yes, but they had fied it away as it wasn't valid is they acutually aren't late. Funny, as until two days ago they didn't deny the late payment.
Anyway, I sent a rather harsh and long email listing the chain of events. It was harsh, yet polit at all times. Here are the responses I got and I'd love your opinions:

This morning. Email 1:

Monsieur

Je viens de lire l'ensemble de votre message, même si son contenu me semblait de plus en plus "flou" au fur et à mesure que je le lisais, de par sa longueur, sa confusion, et surtout les innombrabres fautes de français qui rendent certaines phrases totalement incompréhensibles.

Bref, je le relirai à tête reposée la semaine prochaine, afin d'être sûre que je comprends bien tout, avant de vous faire quelque réponse que ce soit.

Dans tous les cas, je ne comprends toujours pas votre décompte, et si votre facture date du 2 décembre, "60 jours fin de mois, le 5 du mois suivant", nous amène bien au 5 mars.

Cordialement

I was a bit taken back by the comments on my French, rather offended actually! I responded saying this and that as a fellow language pro I'm sure she must speak another language and to let me know to see if maye I could right in another language I dominate better at a written level. That Iwas hurt by her remarks concerninf my French, and that I only wrote in French out of respect to her as I'm in France and she's French, and that that's why I don't translate into French! Her respnse (mayve my French is that bad as she seems to have totally misunderstood me:

Email 2 this morning:

Monsieur

j'ai bien lu votre dernier email (qui m'est parvenu juste après avoir envoyé le précédent).

Je vais réétudier dans les jours à venir nos différents échanges, les dates de factures etc, avec XXXX et notre gérant (qui est aussi mon mari, et co-fondateur avec moi-même de la société XXXXXXXX).

Toujours est-il que vous n'avez pas à juger de mes compétences en langues étrangères, ni d'ailleurs de ma connaissance des règles fondamentales de la traduction, car j'ai toujours moi-même traduit exclusivement vers ma langue maternelle, à savoir le français. Or, lorsque j'écris à des clients en anglais (maintenant comme lorsque j'étais traductrice indépendante il y a quelques années), j'ai toujours fait en sorte de m'exprimer clairement.

Sur ce, j'arrête cette discussion pour le moment, car, même si je ne suis pas en vacances en ce moment, on est quand même en week-end...

Cordialement

Here she seems to think I attacked her Language skills, which I didn't.

This whole thing is just getting too personal, which I don't like, it's not my style.

I've had numerous emails from different Proz members with similar and much worse problems with the same agency.

Regarding my French, my main languages are English and Spanish, in which I am fluent in both at all levels. I studied French, have been here for over 3 years in France and get on just fine communicating, I understand 99%, yet I admit my written work needs improvement, but were her comments really necessary??

Thanks,

Peter


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Patricia Lane  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 08:10
French to English
+ ...
Maison de la justice Feb 19, 2006

Peter,

I am new to Proz and read your post.

You might want to contact La Maison de la Justice. It is a goverment agency that helps people with legal problems of various sorts on a pro bono basis.

Here is the link http://www.justice.gouv.fr/region/mjdanten.htm

Hope it helps.

Courage!

Patricia


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Sara Freitas
France
Local time: 08:10
French to English
Peter, maybe you need to set clearer terms from the outset Feb 20, 2006

Peter's Trans. wrote:

[The one good thing I can say in favour of the Spaniards, is even though they stall payment as much as possible, they're honest people and will usually eventually pay you. It's the opposite here in France and other countries I work with, in which by 90 days after invoice, you can say good riddance to payment. The fact that your client responds to you and doesn't ignore, is a good sign.



Not so sure about your deeming the French dishonest. I've successfully billed and collected almost 150 k euros in my three years in business here (almost all of it from French clients). I think that one of the reasons I've *always* been paid is that my payment terms are always clear from the outset and in writing, both on the PO and my terms of sale, which all new clients must sign.

Also, there is a very clear legal framework for most commercial transactions in France and a very cost-effective process for collecting payment (injonction de faire payer) should it come to that.

I would wait until March 10th (5 days after what the agency feels the due date is) and move forward with the registered letter at that point if you still haven't received payment.

Given the comments about your French, these people are clearly not very nice or very professional, so I suppose you won't be working with them again anyway.

Clients who are above board will not flinch if you very clearly state your conditions before work begins. (See my recent post on risk with a new client and you'll see what I mean at http://www.proz.com/topic/42609). For those who do flinch, run, don't walk, away as fast as you can!

Since the e-mails have become a bit nasty, I would just stop corresponding with them altogether, wait till the March date and go ahead with official written notification that you will proceed with the legal debt-collection process if you still haven't received payment at that point.

For future correspondence, you may want to find a French friend to help you develop a few e-mails that you can re-use and adapt to suit your needs. Personally, when the issue is a sensitive one, I always have a native French speaker check my e-mails before sending. The waiting period this entails also reduces the likelihood of flaming!

Good luck.

Regards,

Sara

[Edited at 2006-02-20 12:43]

[Edited at 2006-02-20 12:47]


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Peters Trans
France
Local time: 08:10
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for the solid advice Feb 20, 2006

Sara Freitas-Maltaverne wrote:


Not so sure about your deeming the French dishonest. I've successfully billed and collected almost 150 k euros in my three years in business here (almost all of it from French clients). I think that one of the reasons I've *always* been paid is that my payment terms are always clear from the outset and in writing, both on the PO and my terms of sale, which all new clients must sign.

Also, there is a very clear legal framework for most commercial transactions in France and a very cost-effective process for collecting payment (injonction de faire payer) should it come to that.

I would wait until March 10th (5 days after what the agency feels the due date is) and move forward with the registered letter at that point if you still haven't received payment.

Given the comments about your French, these people are clearly not very nice or very professional, so I suppose you won't be working with them again anyway.

Clients who are above board will not flinch if you very clearly state your conditions before work begins. (See my recent post on risk with a new client and you'll see what I mean at http://www.proz.com/topic/42609). For those who do flinch, run, don't walk, away as fast as you can!

Since the e-mails have become a bit nasty, I would just stop corresponding with them altogether, wait till the March date and go ahead with official written notification that you will proceed with the legal debt-collection process if you still haven't received payment at that point.

For future correspondence, you may want to find a French friend to help you develop a few e-mails that you can re-use and adapt to suit your needs. Personally, when the issue is a sensitive one, I always have a native French speaker check my e-mails before sending. The waiting period this entails also reduces the likelihood of flaming!

Good luck.

Regards,

Sara

[Edited at 2006-02-20 12:43]

[Edited at 2006-02-20 12:47]


Thanks Sara for your kind interest and sound adivce. Firstly, for the benefit of all, let me just clear one think: in my response to another member with problems with a Spanish agency and in which I said the Spaniards are generally "honest" people, I was NOT in any way implying that the French are dishonest. Far from that, I have been in France for about 3 and a half years and have had no other problems with my French clients. I enjoy dealing with the French, find them to be professional, honest and kind people to work with. Obviosly like anywhere, there are always bad people.

Regarding the "injonction de faire payer", other members have also sent me messages advising me of this procedure, which I will use in the future if required.

Since those rather nasty emails of Saturday morning, I decided to do more or less what you advised. I have ceased all written communication with them and will wait until a few days after the date they deem as to be the correct date of payment (yet I severely doubt I will see payment considering the BB report and othe proz members who have contacted me who have payments worth thousands of euros and some are 6, 7 and more months late).

I usually state my conditions clearly from the outset, thus I have had few similar problems. Unfortunately these people messed me up from the very beginning! I will certainly never work for them, and I know some other colleagues have already resfused further work due to this and other similar dispuetes.

Anyway, thanks Sara, I really appreciate the time you've taken.


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Sara Freitas
France
Local time: 08:10
French to English
Keep us posted Feb 20, 2006

I sincerely hope you get paid (and I am sure you will).

Regards,

Sara


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