| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | 76 offers (and growing!) for 0.04 euro /word on proZ?? Thread poster: Luca Tutino
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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 19:30
German to English
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| Rules for public bidding, anti-dumping measures, countervailing measures, etc. | Nov 11, 2001 |
One thing we all have to keep in mind is that there is international legislation regarding public bidding, price dumping, etc.
Each public invitation for bids is subject to stringent rules in order to preclude any wrongdoing such as price-dumping. That is why ProZ needs to adopt such rules as well.
It might be far-fetched, but one day someone might bring a complaint against ProZ and its bidding process before the relevant trade and competition bodies, s... See more One thing we all have to keep in mind is that there is international legislation regarding public bidding, price dumping, etc.
Each public invitation for bids is subject to stringent rules in order to preclude any wrongdoing such as price-dumping. That is why ProZ needs to adopt such rules as well.
It might be far-fetched, but one day someone might bring a complaint against ProZ and its bidding process before the relevant trade and competition bodies, so, I believe, ProZ should take preventive measures now (e.g., setting a minimum rate for public bids; bar violators from future bids, etc.).
Markets are governed by the laws and rules of economics, that\'s true, but at the same time they are very sensitive to \"trade-distorting\" effects such as price-dumping, subsidies, etc. Such problems can be triggered by seemingly trifle factors: currently, Canada is embroiled in a dispute with the US over softwood lumber - the US claims that Canada is dumping its softwood on to the US market (however, this \"dumping\" is mainly due to the exchange rate and not so much a wilful act on the part of the Canadian government to undercut the US).
Therefore, it is crucial to all of us (and ProZ as well) to avoid such things. Anyone of us is free to offer the rates we want, but once we participate in a public bidding process, we need to play by the rules, and if ProZ sets a minimum rate, then we\'ll all have to comply with that or face \"countervailing measures\" (e.g., lock-out from future bids for a certain period of time - such as 3 months). If you want to sell yourself short for 1 or 2 cents a word, then do so on your own website or vis-à-vis clients that approach you directly.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-11-11 17:56 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Rate ( continued ) | Nov 14, 2001 |
Dear,
Although I \'m so tired of your \" boastful \" and \" blaming others\" point of view, I should stop myself not to mention it any further and be relevant to our topics.
Ralf Quote:
\" I\'m not afraid at all. Any qualified translator (forget the \"*\"\'s!) with the commensurate degree of specialist expertise and reasonable marketing skills shouldn\'t worry at all.\"
Really ? But from what I \'ve seen from their postings, at least from this topic alo... See more Dear,
Although I \'m so tired of your \" boastful \" and \" blaming others\" point of view, I should stop myself not to mention it any further and be relevant to our topics.
Ralf Quote:
\" I\'m not afraid at all. Any qualified translator (forget the \"*\"\'s!) with the commensurate degree of specialist expertise and reasonable marketing skills shouldn\'t worry at all.\"
Really ? But from what I \'ve seen from their postings, at least from this topic alone, all of them are afraid. Or you want to argue that they are not *qualified* enough?
\"Granted, but I\'m afraid that\'s not how markets work\"
How market work ? OK, I \'m going to tell you how market work. Translation business use the same economic rule as other kind of business, that is, the rule of demand and supply. Of course, if there is an increase in supply over a certain area ( In this case, your Western Europe\'s translation market ) resulting from numerous Eastern Europe\'s translators trying to compete your extraordinary (In my opinion, an unacceptable and unfair) rate, no need to say that your translation rate will drop to an unacceptable(In your and some Western translator\'s viewpoint ) rate. Unfair ? maybe, but this is how market work.
If there is any measure or regulation you want to establish, you should establish it now. Or else, you \'ll soon be driven out of business by \"\"how market work\"
\" I should be out of business, then? \"
Maybe. I \'m not definitely certain about this, but unless you adapt yourself to the world of globalization, I \'m afraid so.
George Quote :
\" I do not believe for a second that a translator located in Thailand can produce the same kind of quality output in a Western language as a professional translator in the West \"
Although I like the picture in your profile, this message was composed specially for you.
You may criticize my translation skill, even my profile. I do not care. But what on earth brought you to say the statement above.( Western blood, maybe) How can you know the translator\'s nationality in the translation you were reading. Did they sign their country of origin on the translation they did ? Whatever the case, given that the phrase \" almost 15 years in business\" was true (Personally, I believe) , how come you can\'t notice the presence of sub-standard quality of your fellow Western translator. Although I\'m in this business not as long as you, I \'ve already seen such document. Or you are not regard those translators as the member of your country ? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 19:30
German to English
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| Reply to Theeraphat | Nov 14, 2001 |
I did not criticize you at all - I used Thailand as an example to illustrate my point (I could have used any other country outside the West, for that matter). My point was not even about the rates, but about the scams that agencies outside the West are engaged in (and that did not include or refer to you).
You, Theeraphat, are not doing anything wrong: your language combinations all contain your first language. Good! I was only making a point about the agencies outside the W... See more I did not criticize you at all - I used Thailand as an example to illustrate my point (I could have used any other country outside the West, for that matter). My point was not even about the rates, but about the scams that agencies outside the West are engaged in (and that did not include or refer to you).
You, Theeraphat, are not doing anything wrong: your language combinations all contain your first language. Good! I was only making a point about the agencies outside the West that try to \"compete\" with us in language combinations that they are not qualified for (like a client sending a Spanish-Italian translation to Moscow, for example - that\'s just insane!).
I do understand that countries outside the West can offer lower rates due to much lower living standards - but this applies to their native tongues only; translating from one foreign language into another foreign language is outrageous and a scam.
And, after almost 15 years in business, I have never seen a single translation coming from outside the West that was up to par!
Personally, I am not afraid: as I said, clients who hire a translator or agency outside the West once, all come crawling back to us in the West - it is the best advertising we in the West can hope for.
And if I were the client and needed a translation from English to Thai, I\'d probably send it to you, because that\'s what you are qualified for. And there is nothing wrong with that. As for Thai to English, yes, I could still see myself giving you the job, but I would get some excellent proofreader/editor over here in the US or Canada to go over your translation into English before handing it to my client. And, again, there is nothing wrong with that either: that would be an example of how globalization works.
But globalization should not be used as a pretext for scams.
Theeraphat, I do know about the shortcomings of some translators in the West too - there are bad apples everywhere.
And re nationality: I don\'t have to see a passport to know that no Western translator (as in my English-French example) would ever work for an agency outside the West for a rate equal to or lower than 1 or 2 cents.
In short: if you live and work in Thailand, offer only combinations that include Thai, that\'s it. If you live in XXX, only offer combinations that include the official language(s) of XXX. But don\'t get into combinations that you are not qualified for.
The purpose of globalization in the translation industry, as I see it, is to achieve higher levels of efficiency (meaning more quality, not lower rates) and to make it easier for clients to find qualified translators. Before the Internet, for example, it would have been very difficult for a client in Mexico to contract the services of a Spanish-French translator in France. In the past, a client would never have been able to locate Theeraphat for English-Thai translations. Now, it is one of the easiest things in the world.
I think it all has to do with \"division of labour\": clients can now contact translators who live in the country of the target language - and this, I believe, is (and ought to be) the linchpin: always send your translation projects to a translator who lives in the country of the target language!
And my last comment goes to you, Theeraphat: you cannot say that our Western rates are unfair (that is a highly unqualified, \"unfair\" and short-sighted comment to make): they are in line with our living standards; we do not charge (most of us, anyway) \"criminally\" high rates; we charge what we need to live comfortably (you do the same!).
[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-11-14 09:21 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ralf Lemster 
Germany
Local time: 01:30
English to German
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| My last response to this thread... | Nov 14, 2001 |
Theeraphat,
All I wish to say in response to your last posting is that I refuse to have a discussion where I\'m abused. The language you used was uncalled for, and unjustified.
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Luca Tutino
Italy
Member (2002)
English to Italian
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TOPIC STARTER | Sorry, wrong key... | Nov 14, 2001 |
[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-11-14 16:21 ]
| | | | Luca Tutino
Italy
Member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Conclusions? | Nov 14, 2001 |
Hi again to everybody!
I feel quite proud of being the originator of such a long thread. I hope you will bear me trying to draw some conclusions, made according to my view.
1. Everybody agreed that 0.04 /word is not a viable fee for a translator living in Western Europe or North America.
2. There is no need whatsoever for more regulations on ProZ. I know that Henry is aware of the subject, as he is taking care of rising... See more Hi again to everybody!
I feel quite proud of being the originator of such a long thread. I hope you will bear me trying to draw some conclusions, made according to my view.
1. Everybody agreed that 0.04 /word is not a viable fee for a translator living in Western Europe or North America.
2. There is no need whatsoever for more regulations on ProZ. I know that Henry is aware of the subject, as he is taking care of rising questions at meetings. That is what we can do. OK, it is probably illegal in many countries to agree upon prices, and it would probably not work anyway – so we will not do it. But we say loud and clear “Hey! 0,04 is too low for a professional translation into German Italian, France/French, UK or USA English, etc. etc.!!” Let’s say it to both translators and clients.
3. ProZ can help increasing awareness on the subject of price and quality. This thread is an example of what ProZ (possibly best marketplace on the web!) can do. We should all take responsibility as a community. Let’s discuss, share awareness and understand the market trough cooperation!
4. The fact that the translator is native and resident in the target language country is a very, very, very important quality factor. I can guarantee this on the basis of my personal experience: I am born in Florence and I have taken my University degree in Rome, but when I was living in Amsterdam I saw my linguistic competence shrinking year after year, despite the fact that I was working 8 hours per day as Italian Editor, writing in Italian, seeing many Italian friends (including a PhD in Linguistics) daily, reading books and papers and listening to radio and TV in Italian. Still, I missed a direct contact with the variety of different ways of expression I could only get in Italy! And I after more than 5 years I started to feel the need for some kind of remedy. Language aware people living abroad usually agrees about this.
5. The agency or client must be free to choose. I am sure an Italian in Thailand can be preferred for many Thai-Italian and even English Italian jobs for a number of reasons. The important thing is that he is aware of what is choosing for! It is our responsibility as a group to rise this awareness.
Last but not least: One way or another all of my present clients come from ProZ. I really love this site. I hope nobody will conclude that I am not a good enough translator from that!
Love
Luca
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| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 19:30
German to English
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| I could not agree with you more, Luca | Nov 14, 2001 |
Excellent points, Luca – kudos(Z) to you!
Yes, you must live in the target-language country. I, too, feel that my German is deteriorating (even though I am bilingual), but reading newspapers or watching German satellite TV is not good enough, and it cannot make up for the actual “immersion experience”.
ProZ is the ideal place to raise people’s awareness and to educate our clients. We all need to do our share so as to prevent the translation indu... See more Excellent points, Luca – kudos(Z) to you!
Yes, you must live in the target-language country. I, too, feel that my German is deteriorating (even though I am bilingual), but reading newspapers or watching German satellite TV is not good enough, and it cannot make up for the actual “immersion experience”.
ProZ is the ideal place to raise people’s awareness and to educate our clients. We all need to do our share so as to prevent the translation industry from going under. The real threat is not from the “cheapos” outside (and inside) the West, but from ignorant clients who just don’t know any better.
Honestly, I am not worried about the “cheapos”: their rates may be lower than ours, but so is, only too frequently, the quality of their work. English-German example: “power on” (on a technical device) is translated as “Macht an” (apart from being a delicious joke, it is also highly embarrassing for the agency or translator behind it). As I said, in almost 15 years I have never seen any good translations coming from “cheapo countries” (of course, I am in no position to assess the quality of translations done in their respective native tongues, but when they mess with exclusively Western language combinations, such as English to Spanish, for example, they will always lose!).
[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-11-14 19:04 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | target or source language country? | Dec 5, 2001 |
Having proof-read a lot of FR->EN work from the UK, and having done a lot of FR->EN translation in France, I can see the advantages and disadvantages in both directions. I consider, however, that the advantage lies with the source-country dweller. Many target-country residents allow source-language nuances to pass them by. This is to be expected: they\'re not immersed in the language.
And having gone through the distressing experience of totally losing a language I once spoke fluently,... See more Having proof-read a lot of FR->EN work from the UK, and having done a lot of FR->EN translation in France, I can see the advantages and disadvantages in both directions. I consider, however, that the advantage lies with the source-country dweller. Many target-country residents allow source-language nuances to pass them by. This is to be expected: they\'re not immersed in the language.
And having gone through the distressing experience of totally losing a language I once spoke fluently, I can say for certain that a foreign language deteriorates much more quickly than a native language when you are not immersed.
My living in France might make it more difficult to remain idiomatic, but it also means I have a much greater chance of remaining accurate.
Now, I can rework a translation to make it idiomatic; but can I rework it to make it accurate? I think the fact that I have recovered a lot of work that was previously done in the UK speaks for itself. Your mileage may vary.
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| Reply to Luca... | Dec 6, 2001 |
Luca, you said:
\"4. The fact that the translator is native and resident in the target language country is a very, very, very important quality factor. I can guarantee this on the basis of my personal experience: I am born in Florence and I have taken my University degree in Rome, but when I was living in Amsterdam I saw my linguistic competence shrinking year after year, despite the fact that I was working 8 hours per day as Italian Editor, writing in Italian, seeing many Italian frie... See more Luca, you said:
\"4. The fact that the translator is native and resident in the target language country is a very, very, very important quality factor. I can guarantee this on the basis of my personal experience: I am born in Florence and I have taken my University degree in Rome, but when I was living in Amsterdam I saw my linguistic competence shrinking year after year, despite the fact that I was working 8 hours per day as Italian Editor, writing in Italian, seeing many Italian friends (including a PhD in Linguistics) daily, reading books and papers and listening to radio and TV in Italian. Still, I missed a direct contact with the variety of different ways of expression I could only get in Italy! And I after more than 5 years I started to feel the need for some kind of remedy. Language aware people living abroad usually agrees about this\".
Although, as a person living abroad, I agree to a certain extent with you, I have two things to stress: people who frequently go back to their country of origin do not lose any of their linguistic skills or knowledge of their own language. Also, you can watch TV, read newpapers, visit Proz ;o) talk to Italian friends or even relatives in the foreign country and so on. I\'ve been living in England for 10 years and I don\'t think I\'ve lost any of my capabilities.
My second point is: I always know when a text has been translated from English into Italian by a person (Italian) living in Italy. Very often, the text is full of misunderstandings of the English language. One example. The other day I was translating a magazine with a woman on the cover hugging a dolphin in a pool. The title read... \"Deependers\". Most Italians living in Italy and not knowing the woman would probably translate that literally. Ah! But the woman is an actress from a British soap called \"Eastenders\", hence the pun. Would you have known that if you lived in Italy? No. Result: terrible mistake, lost client.
A presto.
Giovanni
Giovanni ▲ Collapse
| | | | Cedomir Pusica
Serbia
Local time: 01:30
Member (2009)
English to Serbian
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| Local-Global Metamorphosis | Nov 29, 2009 |
Dear colleagues,
I believe that some people in this forum are trying to impose their local view on a global problem - translation TARGET MARKET.
Namely, translators east to the Rhine, and there's a whole lot of them, live in very different economic conditions but are professionals nontheless. Western companies pay them pennies for translations intended for the Western market, but charge the same for translations throughout the globe. A-ha!
Now, if a comp... See more Dear colleagues,
I believe that some people in this forum are trying to impose their local view on a global problem - translation TARGET MARKET.
Namely, translators east to the Rhine, and there's a whole lot of them, live in very different economic conditions but are professionals nontheless. Western companies pay them pennies for translations intended for the Western market, but charge the same for translations throughout the globe. A-ha!
Now, if a company doing business in the East wants to sell their translation products in the Eastern market, it has to cut costs drastically and do things they would normally never have to do had the price of translation services been the same throughout. That is the problem. We are in the middle of the globalization process and the markets largely differ.
On the other hand, the developed-world languages are studied in the East, while it is a marvel if an American speaks, e.g. Serbian. So, a translation into English (mother tongue) from Serbian (source language) would cost tons, while doing the same into Serbian would cost pennies... This is why companies (in the concrete case) use native Serbian speakers to translate documents into English (in this case) and then have native English speakers review them.
When all are paid the same for the same job, or when money stops being the fuel of the world, that's when we have been fully globalized. (and I don't intend to go Communism on you here ) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Nothing has changed... | Mar 23, 2011 |
in all those years: I just saw a job posting by a reputable British outsourcer for an English-Dutch legal translation, 4,000+ words to be completed by tomorrow, at a rate of € 0.04 - € 0.05 per word. Unbelievable! Not that many bids though, only 5 so far.
[Edited at 2011-03-23 15:06 GMT]
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Luca Tutino
Italy
Member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Unsustainable speculation | Mar 23, 2011 |
The target language country is usually also the target final buyer market.
Cedomir Pusica wrote:
So, a translation into English (mother tongue) from Serbian (source language) would cost tons, while doing the same into Serbian would cost pennies... This is why companies (in the concrete case) use native Serbian speakers to translate documents into English (in this case)
You seem to forget that a translation into Italian is likely to generate revenues corresponding to the state of Italian market, while a translation in Serbian will generate income related to the Serbian market. I think a company willing to sell in US should be prepared to invest more than one selling in Serbia.
Asking a Serbian student to translate a software intended for US is pure speculation. By having a non target native translator and/or a non professional one, these companies are only likely to generate heavy damages to themselves, to the translators, to the final users and to international commerce and communications in general.
...and then have native English speakers review them.
This does not work either, when they offer less than $0,03/w for such a "proofreading" that actually requires more time than a translation (if done professionally).
[Edited at 2011-03-23 17:45 GMT]
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 19:30
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| If I am bored... | Mar 23, 2011 |
I will bid 0.18 on these projects in the hope that a colleague's offer of .12 will suddenly look attractive.
There is competition (pricing yourself slightly below what the market will bear), but I do not understand why some translators lower their prices so much. Ex: If it is possible to get .12 - .18 a word, why not (if you feel you must charge less for whatever reason) offer .08 - .10 cents to be competitive and not immediately go all the way down to .03 or .04 even if this might ... See more I will bid 0.18 on these projects in the hope that a colleague's offer of .12 will suddenly look attractive.
There is competition (pricing yourself slightly below what the market will bear), but I do not understand why some translators lower their prices so much. Ex: If it is possible to get .12 - .18 a word, why not (if you feel you must charge less for whatever reason) offer .08 - .10 cents to be competitive and not immediately go all the way down to .03 or .04 even if this might mean, heaven forbid, being wealthy in your country and earning above the average - shudder the thought!.
The only possible explanation is inadequate translation skills or lack of confidence in their own abilities as translators, perhaps combined with a low self-esteem fostered by some foreign governments.
Our way of thinking is simply different. To us, being competitive means charging slightly less than the competition. To others, it means charging as little as possible in order to get work regardless of the consequences.
[Edited at 2011-03-23 16:32 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Well said Jeff... | Mar 23, 2011 |
Jeff Whittaker wrote:
I will bid 0.18 on these projects in the hope that a colleague's offer of .12 will suddenly look attractive.
There is competition (pricing yourself slightly below what the market will bear), but I do not understand why some translators lower their prices so much. Ex: If it is possible to get .12 - .18 a word, why not (if you feel you must charge less for whatever reason) offer .08 - .10 cents to be competitive and not immediately go all the way down to .03 or .04 even if this might mean, heaven forbid, being wealthy in your country and earning above the average - shudder the thought!.
The only possible explanation is inadequate translation skills or lack of confidence in their own abilities as translators, perhaps combined with a low self-esteem fostered by some foreign governments.
Our way of thinking is simply different. To us, being competitive means charging slightly less than the competition. To others, it means charging as little as possible in order to get work regardless of the consequences.
[Edited at 2011-03-23 16:32 GMT]
Being competitive has indeed nothing to do with offering the lowest of the lowest. And I think it is surprising for the language pair I referred to (EN-DU) that already 5 members submitted their bids...
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