| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Payment issues Thread poster: Anna Kiff
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Kirill Semenov 
Ukraine
Local time: 01:48
Member (2004)
English to Russian
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| Right, Irene | Oct 12, 2006 |
IreneN wrote:
What is mind-boggling to me is how people, both individual and agencies, give or accept work based just on resumes or Proz bids/quotes?!?!?
My thoughts, exactly. Anna has selected the translator to do the work, so she has to take the responsibility. So I'm totally agree with Andy, Serdar and, especially, Claudia. It's a lesson, so take it, pay the money and let it go.
| | | | Anna Kiff
Local time: 00:48
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Thanks everybody... | Oct 12, 2006 |
... for all your useful comments.
I have to say that I offered a good rate and picked someone with an apparently fantastic CV, so don't feel I only have myself to blame.
Sometimes it's not possible to rely on word of mouth (especially when it's a rush job and you haven't been translating long enough to have built up a wide circle of reliable colleagues).
So if this translator were to give me a really bad rating on Proz.com, would this actually matter? And w... See more ... for all your useful comments.
I have to say that I offered a good rate and picked someone with an apparently fantastic CV, so don't feel I only have myself to blame.
Sometimes it's not possible to rely on word of mouth (especially when it's a rush job and you haven't been translating long enough to have built up a wide circle of reliable colleagues).
So if this translator were to give me a really bad rating on Proz.com, would this actually matter? And what would the procedure be?
I do intend to pay most of the invoice, but agree with those who think that paying the whole thing is letting a charlatan get away with it!
Oh well, you live and learn! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Giulia TAPPI
France
Local time: 00:48
French to Italian
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| Just to answer | Oct 12, 2006 |
1) when I talked about "half the price", it was 50% of what I charged my direct client, which is exactly what is usually offered by agencies
2) I related my experience, but the person was not somebody I found on Proz; she was very well known in the place I live
3) "almost perfect" means for me a good translation, not a one where parts are missing, terms mistranslated, and so on.
I hope I made my point clearer.
I just mean a lot of people say they are excellent translators... See more 1) when I talked about "half the price", it was 50% of what I charged my direct client, which is exactly what is usually offered by agencies
2) I related my experience, but the person was not somebody I found on Proz; she was very well known in the place I live
3) "almost perfect" means for me a good translation, not a one where parts are missing, terms mistranslated, and so on.
I hope I made my point clearer.
I just mean a lot of people say they are excellent translators, but they just do not care about being accurate and honest. I personally do not translate during the night after a day of interpretation; even if I may miss a job, and the money that goes with it.
Regards
Giulia ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Conditions for making a Blue Board entry | Oct 12, 2006 |
Good morning Anna,
Anna Kiff wrote:
So if this translator were to give me a really bad rating on Proz.com, would this actually matter? And what would the procedure be?
in the Blue Board we don't have "ratings", but "LWAs", i.e. Likeliwood of Working Again (for an outsourcers), and they are expression of a service provider's very personal experience with a certain outsourcer.
There are some conditions and if they are not fulfilled, the entry will not be approved - provided with know in advance, or will be removed if communicated later.
One of these conditions says that no entry can be made if the outsourcer complained about quality.
Please have a look at the Blue Board specific FAQs:
http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb&viewPage=faq
Nice reading to all,
Giuliana
Jobs coordinator
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Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 00:48
Spanish to English
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Andy Lemminger wrote: Here is what I do in such a situation: I pay the translator in full and never use him/her again. Everything else is an additional waste of time and energy. Andy www.interlations.com
Best to let it go, and take it as a lesson. Apart from the time lost already, you might end up having to argue your case round and round with the translator, as he/she might in fact disagree with some of the errors.
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 00:48
Spanish to English
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| business risk and charlatans | Oct 12, 2006 |
Anna Kiff wrote:
I have to say that I offered a good rate and picked someone with an apparently fantastic CV, so don't feel I only have myself to blame.
I do intend to pay most of the invoice, but agree with those who think that paying the whole thing is letting a charlatan get away with it!
Oh well, you live and learn!
Hi Anna
That's a business risk, it's not about blame. You risked and you lost, despite having - according to yourself - applied reasonable selection criteria. You now need to decide how to minimise this risk in the future, which means applying further criteria.
If you decide you need to outsource, you need to recruit a reliable team of people, and that means preparing in advance.
For the future you could test people (although that's not foolproof either), and perhaps for the first actual job, offer a slightly lower rate that takes into account the risk you are taking of having to revise substantially. Once you see that a translator is of acceptable standard, raise the rate.
As for letting a charlatan get away with it, he/she won't survive for long (we hope), although the problem is that it's too easy to enter this profession, and some people haven't the long-term committment needed to both honour it and themselves.
[Edited at 2006-10-12 08:31]
| | | | Ara Mkrtchyan (X)
Armenia
Local time: 02:48
English to Armenian
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| I was much crueler | Oct 12, 2006 |
First, a piece of advice: never prefer cheap translations and check a translator's actual skills by a test translation (irrespective if their 'professional' CV).
I do not outsource as a rule; but once I was asked to do a rush job at not-really-high rates. I took it and gave the translation to a 'colleague' who claimed to have experience in legal translations and pro skills. She named her rates, I agreed.
What I received the next day can hardly be called a translation. A... See more First, a piece of advice: never prefer cheap translations and check a translator's actual skills by a test translation (irrespective if their 'professional' CV).
I do not outsource as a rule; but once I was asked to do a rush job at not-really-high rates. I took it and gave the translation to a 'colleague' who claimed to have experience in legal translations and pro skills. She named her rates, I agreed.
What I received the next day can hardly be called a translation. Absolutely no formatting, not even the simple bold-italic-underline functions were retained, ignorant and wrong terminology, spelling mistakes, and on top of all, about 1/4-1/3 of the original was simply NOT translated.
Now, the question arises: pay the woe-translator the full amount and forget her?? Never!
I had to make the editing, proof-reading and the missing translation myself, then recover the whole formatting and then send the text (the first time I sent it - to meet the deadlnie and overlooking a few points - the client returned the translation, and I re-corrected everything and sent back).
What I first did was talk to her about her 'skills', offered a detailed list of mistakes and demanded the whole payment back. She refused. I contacted her boss, let her know about her translator's real abilities, negotiated a few hours and got the whole money back! Was I unfair? Not in the least! If a translation is so poor that it gets rejected by a client(and not paid), then it is not worth being paid at all because it doesn't really matter for me how much a translator has worked on it - I judge by the result(a translator might burn the midnight oil working on the job but if they do not have the necessary qualities and consequently cannot deliver an acceptable translation, then all their efforts equal to nothing, for me at least). I do not mean by this that a translation must not have any faults; we're all humans and 'to err is human' as they say (in regard to translation here). I'm talking about SUCH a poor quality that the translation gets rejected.
Maybe if the errors were fewer, let alone the missing translation, I could leave half of the money, but I definitely won't in suchlike cases!
Another unpleasant thing is when a translator who has done poor translation does not want to admit most obvious faults and mistakes that they're presented with and even tries to 'teach' you what's what... which was the case with me and I had to pause my job, meet this guy, make a couple of things clear for his brains and get his apologies.
Finally, I agree that if I outsource (which I already don't) I bear responsibility with the client - that's why I made the corrections myself, but that doesn not mean that the ignorant translator should be paid the full amount (mind also that many of such translators are not even listed in any online directory to be given a rating).
Rgrds,
Ara ▲ Collapse
| | | | CMJ_Trans (X)
Local time: 00:48
French to English
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Dear Anna,
I farm out work on occasions for clients in the context of more general projects. Most of the time it is fine because I work regularly with the same people/agencies and they know better than to fob me off with beginners or sub-standard work. They know that I will send it back with red "track changes" marks all over it. In other words I have trained them!
In your case, you were shooting from the hip. The sad thing is that you seem to have had a quite massive response and y... See more Dear Anna,
I farm out work on occasions for clients in the context of more general projects. Most of the time it is fine because I work regularly with the same people/agencies and they know better than to fob me off with beginners or sub-standard work. They know that I will send it back with red "track changes" marks all over it. In other words I have trained them!
In your case, you were shooting from the hip. The sad thing is that you seem to have had a quite massive response and yet got a "wrong 'un". Therein lie the dangers of picking people via a website.
Others have advised you on the pay or not pay situation.
I would offer a suggestion and extra word of advice:
Firstly, you CANNOT let this go without saying something to the translator. Those who have said that you should simply decide never to work with the person again (that you can do anyway) forget one essential thing, namely that "no news", will be taken as "good news". The translator will be pleased with him/herself and go away thinking "another good job done". You only have to visit this (and other) sites a couple of times to know that there are loads of people out there surviving on bluff and the seats of their pants. You cannot count on them to be self-critical and to withdraw gracefully from the scene. If they knew how many beans make five they would never have embarked on the profession in the first place. I would add that it is also not always possible to judge one's own work. What you think is good may be deemed otherwise by the recipient (stupid errors, spelling mistakes apart). When I was a translator/interpreter per se, I was always interested in feedback. For instance, when I worked as an interpreter, I considered myself OK but no more. In my circles however I had the reputation of being the star of the team. You just never know. I always felt guilty about my reputation which I considered I didn't deserve. It can work both ways.
Those asides apart, you should in my view go back to the translator and tell him/her of your opinion. Send the text back in its old and new versions to prove your point. Maybe the person will be so embarrassed that he or she will offer you a cheaper rate. Perhaps in your covering note, you could already hint that you don't think you got value for money....
At all events, you should tell him or her how it is. It would be unprofessional not to. Life is a learning curve and we all have to play our part.
Last point: always remember that you should also tell people when they've done a good job. Praise is good for the soul and it helps people to become more aware of their strengths and weaknesses. The few agencies I work with know me well enough to know that I will always tell them when work is good but, equally, when it's bad. It happened the other day: I farmed out a text I would have done myself if I had had time and then had to redo the whole of the resulting translation. I complained. They will be paid but they know better than to use that translator for me again...
HTH
Chris ▲ Collapse
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Tony M
France
Local time: 00:48
Member
French to English
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SITE LOCALIZER | Naming and shaming | Oct 12, 2006 |
I think the whole problem is, we're all too shy about actually coming out and naming and shaming people!
We do this the other way round with the Blue Board, which is very reassuring for me as a translator, when working for a new client: "Am I going to get paid, can they be trusted?"
But the WWA criteria for translators do not work the same the other way round; for a start, and most importantly, you have to be invited to comment — and what person in their right mind is... See more I think the whole problem is, we're all too shy about actually coming out and naming and shaming people!
We do this the other way round with the Blue Board, which is very reassuring for me as a translator, when working for a new client: "Am I going to get paid, can they be trusted?"
But the WWA criteria for translators do not work the same the other way round; for a start, and most importantly, you have to be invited to comment — and what person in their right mind is going to invite a comment from a dissatisfied customer?!!
So there is actually no way one can signal a poor translator; of course, not to drum someone out on the baiss of one job; but a kind of long-term average rating, like on the Blue Board, with all the safeguards that are already in place there.
This is why I set a lot of store by KudoZ! When selecting colleagues with whom to work, I pay little heed to their profile, and still less to their claimed native language — we all know how many preposterous lies there are in THAT particular field!
No, what I find is the clearest and most reliable indicator is the kind of answers people give on KudoZ, and almost more importantly, the way they give them — and the way they express themselves invariably reveals a lot about their claimed native (or not) language.
I have found this a 100% reliable way of making a pre-selection of potential collaborators — and from the clients I've spoken to, a lot of them seem to think the same way I do, and use exactly the same criteria.
And finally... to answer Anna's original point; if the translation is genuinely and objectively defective, then I would certainly make my dissatisfaction known to the translator, suggesting a discount, and base my subsequent actions on their reaction to that. It would have helped if you'd had a more objective, external proof-reader's viewpoint on which to base your complaint. Personally, as a translator, in my own work, if ever a client were not 100% happy, I would always propose offering them a discount — and if they could prove that the translation was actually defective, I would waive my fee entirely just as a sign of goodwill! I'm pleased to say that so far I've never had to do so! In fact, certain people have been so happy with my work, they've actually volunteered to pay me extra! 
[Edited at 2006-10-12 09:56] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 01:48
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
Tony -Dusty- wrote:
I think the whole problem is, we're all too shy about actually coming out and naming and shaming people!
Tony, I can agree with every your word, except of those about WWA. I don't want to raise any discussion again, but the current version of WWA is far from the initial idea. Initially, it was not that you or me or anyone ASK for a feedback. The feedback was welcomed from clients by THEIR own accord. It makes a real difference. I mean, I've made a dozen of feedbacks into the BB, but none of my clients has ever asked me to enter the feedback. I've done it by my own accord. To ASK for any feedback from a client - ok, we have "Project History" for it, but the initial idea of WWA was different, it was closer to BlueBoard than to PH.
| | | | Anna Quail
France
Local time: 00:48
French to English
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| Agree with Tony -Dusty | Oct 12, 2006 |
[quote]Tony -Dusty- wrote:
This is why I set a lot of store by KudoZ! When selecting colleagues with whom to work, I pay little heed to their profile, and still less to their claimed native language — we all know how many preposterous lies there are in THAT particular field!
No, what I find is the clearest and most reliable indicator is the kind of answers people give on KudoZ, and almost more importantly, the way they give them — and the way they express themselves invariably reveals a lot about their claimed native (or not) language.
I have found this a 100% reliable way of making a pre-selection of potential collaborators — and from the clients I've spoken to, a lot of them seem to think the same way I do, and use exactly the same criteria.
I agree with everything Dusty has said about KudoZ answers. It's a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff I would add that it's not a good idea to rely on KudoZ points alone. I have one translator in mind who has a very striking CV, lots of experience and is high up on the KudoZ points list, but I would NEVER recommend her or give her a translation to do because her answers are strange, illogical, unfounded and sometimes downright ridiculous. Anna, if you look more closely at your translator's KudoZ answers and comments, you may find that they reflect the quality of this person's work more faithfully than his/her CV.
Flo
[Edited at 2006-10-12 11:16]
| | | | Rosmu
Spain
Local time: 00:48
English to Spanish
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| PAY? NO WAY! | Oct 12, 2006 |
Anna Kiff wrote:
Hello!
I recently gave a job to a translator through Proz (someone who claimed to have a great deal of very interesting and relevant experience), and the work returned to me is of extremely poor quality, full of the most basic errors, including omissions, repetitions, mistranslations and (to my horror) lots and lots of spelling mistakes!!!
I have had to completely revise the entire document and it has taken me so much longer than expected that I'm now running behind with all my other jobs.
What can be done in this case? Is it acceptable to deduct some of the excessive extra proofreading/revision time from the translator's invoice?
If so, how much? (It took me far over twice as long as expected to proofread.)
I'd be grateful for any useful advice on this matter.
Thanks a lot
Anna
Hi Anna,
The problem you pose has to do with the fact that the majority of people thinks that translation is a very easy matter and therefore anybody can be able to perform it.
I can’t imagine a person without a PhD in medicine working in a hospital or an electrician performing engineer tasks, nevertheless, in the translation context in general and in ProZ.com in particular, there are lots of people pretending to be translators. The truth is that these fake translators, judging for their performances, are completely ignorant of what translation means and implies, have no idea of the source language and, what is worst, even of their own.
Consequently, I completely agree with Ara Mkrtchyan, these false professionals shouldn’t be paid, for if someone paids them for a disaster, this person is feeding the fraud.
Regards,
Rosmu
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Heinrich Pesch
Finland
Local time: 01:48
Member (2003)
Finnish to German
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| Translation is a service | Oct 12, 2006 |
Other service professions are doctors, therapists, lawers etc. You cannot stop paying because the doctor did not cure you. If a painter paints your walls and the paint flakes off after half a year you could insist on compensation, but it will be hard to achieve.
Translators must be given the possibility to correct their work before an agency can claim to reduce the pay. It happens to all of us: foodnotes are textboxes overlooked, sentences left untranslated. The agency is responsible that ... See more Other service professions are doctors, therapists, lawers etc. You cannot stop paying because the doctor did not cure you. If a painter paints your walls and the paint flakes off after half a year you could insist on compensation, but it will be hard to achieve.
Translators must be given the possibility to correct their work before an agency can claim to reduce the pay. It happens to all of us: foodnotes are textboxes overlooked, sentences left untranslated. The agency is responsible that the translator does the corrections before the file goes to the customer. Only if the translator refuses to do the corrections or delivers late is it allowed to reduce payment.
In relation to other service professions I believe translators are very reliable, on the average.
Regards
Heinrich ▲ Collapse
| | | | Manuel Rossetti (X)
Local time: 23:48
| i agree with Henry. | Oct 12, 2006 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Other service professions are doctors, therapists, lawers etc. You cannot stop paying because the doctor did not cure you. If a painter paints your walls and the paint flakes off after half a year you could insist on compensation, but it will be hard to achieve.
Translators must be given the possibility to correct their work before an agency can claim to reduce the pay. It happens to all of us: foodnotes are textboxes overlooked, sentences left untranslated. The agency is responsible that the translator does the corrections before the file goes to the customer. Only if the translator refuses to do the corrections or delivers late is it allowed to reduce payment.
In relation to other service professions I believe translators are very reliable, on the average.
Regards
Heinrich
I agree with Heinrich. That's why too, I think it's important to state on a contract or a purchase order, exactly what the project entails. Does the translator just translate or is she responsible too for editing and proofreading. What does the agreed rate cover. Will the project be returned to the translator to change a few things, and if so how long after the project has been submitted. Is the translator to be deducted for the changes, and if so, what type of changes- formatting or a few commas here and there or actual translations that were ommitted or not in the ball park of what the source text says. Or is the editor and proofreader provided by the agency's in-house staff?
I would be weary of agencies that receive projects from clients for the most money they can possibly get, then turn around and give it to a translator, and the agency's personnel:
1) are not translators to know if the submitted project was a good quality translation
2)Are unable to help you with anything even though they offer you to contact them if you need help
3)Expect that you can do an incredibly long piece of work in very little time especially without their availability to communicate any concerns that may arise, and or they lack any know-how of any software, or the project itself.
In other words, here you go. Good luck.
Then even though problems did arise and they were not available and made it clear on the initial communications of the project that they were too tired or preoccupied to deal with you and couldnt because the project was unaccesible for them, that they thought that on this urgent project they were going to get rich fast.
lol heheheh dream on!
Then of course, they contact you a month later without any previous communication about any changes the client needed done, telling you you aint getting paid.
Well, for people that do business this way- they're not professional. THey're just there to get all the money they can for themselves.
| | | | | This is why I am in favor of translation tests | Oct 12, 2006 |
and always post a positive opinion of the same when this issue comes up on the boards. In my in-house and freelance career, I have seen too many translators with seemingly high-quality CVs not able to translate their way out of a paper bag.
On the flipside, I have no problem doing test translations for promising clients (checked out beforehand as much as possible, of course). It is a plus for me to see the type of texts I would get from them in the future and whether my skills are s... See more and always post a positive opinion of the same when this issue comes up on the boards. In my in-house and freelance career, I have seen too many translators with seemingly high-quality CVs not able to translate their way out of a paper bag.
On the flipside, I have no problem doing test translations for promising clients (checked out beforehand as much as possible, of course). It is a plus for me to see the type of texts I would get from them in the future and whether my skills are suited to these. They get to judge whether I am suitable for them. I have an MA in translation and almost 10 years of industry experience - so what? The proof is in what I deliver day in and day out. My qualifications don't automatically t mean I can translate everything equally well, and translation tests offer clients a concrete indication of what I can and can't do.
I don't think we should be looking the other way or saying, well, they should be compensated because they did the job. To defend work like this does a disservice to the entire profession. We're not talking about a small mistake here or there that could happen to anyone. Anna clearly stated that the quality was well below a decent standard, and the text had many misspellings and very basic errors. I agree completely that the translator must be told that this is unacceptable.
[Edited at 2006-10-12 17:19]
[Edited at 2006-10-12 18:45] ▲ Collapse
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