| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Client refuses to pay full sum ... because of formatting Thread poster: Constance Mannshardt
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mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 05:13
Spanish to English
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| On Henrik's draft ... | Nov 11, 2006 |
Henrik Pipoyan wrote:
Unless otherwise requested by the client, the translator cannot alter the basic formatting and layout of the original document provided by the client in one of the plain text or word processing programs. The above requirement does not apply to the following cases:
The question, as I see it, is not whether the translator can 'alter' the layout, but rather whether or not (s)he is expected to 'reproduce' it. There are situations where that is feasible and reasonable - and others where it is not.
It could be argued that 'any' layout produced in Word can be reproduced, to some extent, if we are willing to spend unlimited numbers of hours tweaking the layout until it fits.
A professional translator, in today's business environment, should accept the challenge of offering layout in situations where the client shows a comparable degree of profesionalism and technical competence - and is prepared to pay for the extra service. But, as I suggested previously, there's no reason why we should waste time, effort and patience reproducing sloppy layout for uncaring clients.
So, inspired by Henrik's draft and my own experience*, I suggest the following (still specifically targetting source documents in MS WORD):
LAYOUT OPTIONS
It shall be agreed, in writing, when negotiating terms and conditions for the job, which of the following three 'layout options' applies:
A. Translated text 'by the kilometer' for subsequent layout processing by the client (e.g. DTP).
Typical context: a glossy product brochure.
B. Translated text visually and structurally similar to the source document, but precise page-layout matching and total page-count are not important.
Typical context: an academic or conference paper.
C. Translated page layout and pagination shall match that of the source document in every respect.
Typical context: a book for which the publisher requires camera-ready copy.
The following rules shall apply to layout options A, B and C, as noted:
1. In case it is impossible to display the target text using the original font, and if the client has not specified any particular font to be used, the translator may change the font and use a font as close to the original as possible, providing all the fonts used in the translation to the client. In case the client requires a specific font used in the target language, the client should be able to provide this font to the translator if the latter does not have it. After receiving the translation the client may request the translator to change the font and use one of the available fonts or the font provided by the client at no charge, if it does not require additional formatting or retyping due to different encoding, in which case the translator may either refuse the client’s request or require additional payment. This cannot be considered as non-fulfillment of the translator’s responsibilities.
FONTS
The client shall provide to the translator, free of charge, a copy of the files for any fonts required in the target document that are not included in the standard Word software package as sold in the translator's country of commercial residence. (B - C)
2. Due to the fact that after translation the size of the text changes (expands or reduces), unless specifically instructed, the translator is not responsible for fitting on one page as much text as in the original, even if the type of document obviously implies this. Since the translator is responsible for preserving the main properties of the page layout and font size, the translator cannot on his/her own discretion change other properties of the text or the page layout in order to attain this goal, unless allowed by the client. The instructions on this have to be provided by the client and on the client’s initiative.
OPTION A
The translator shall deliver a document containing the minimal layout necessary to facilitate recognition of the document structure (with due regard to the fact that the client's DTP specialist or other downstream personnel may not understand the target language). Translations of graphics may be delivered as lists of corresponding terms, or any other simple presentation, at translator's sole discretion. (A)
OPTION B
The translator shall deliver a document conforming to the general layout and conventions of the source document, and respecting the general rules of good practice, but without necessarily matching the actual page layout, pagination or total number of pages of the source document, which the client accepts may be different between different languages. (B)
OPTION C
The translator shall deliver a document conforming exactly to the layout and conventions of the source document, respecting scrupulously the page layout, pagination and total page count. Where this requires adaptation of the typographical conventions (e.g. font sizes, leading, kerning, feathering, etc.), basic layout (margins, gutter-width, etc.), sizes of graphics or white space or any other such features, the translator shall propose such conventions for the translation and these shall be agreed with the client on the basis of a sample drawn at random from the document. (C)
INCOMPATIBLE WRITING CONVENTIONS
Where the source and target languages are inherently incompatible in terms of layout (source is a L-to-R language and target is a R-to-L language, or one is written vertically and the other horizontally), the client and translator shall agree on the target document layout on the basis of a sample produced by the client or the translator, as appropriate. (B - C)
DUPLICATE / UNNECESSARY CONTENT
Where the target language document is required to include portions of text in both the source language and the target language (e.g. official names in the source language plus their translations), or, inversely, where the sourcde text contains material that does not need to appear in the translation, the client and translator shall agree on the principles to be applied with regard to target document layout on the basis of a sample produced by the client or the translator, as appropriate. (B - C)
3. The translator cannot be held responsible for the exact placement of any unlocked floating graphics or text boxes that move with the text. Likewise, the translator cannot be responsible for the exact placement of any textboxes that have been aligned relative to be page, but have to be expanded due to the expanding text.
In a general presentation of 'terms and conditions', such a level of detail is best avoided.
4. Any embedded object that needs an additional application to be edited cannot be considered as part of the translation project per se, unless previously agreed with the translator or insured by the translator by previously supplied information.
EMBEDDED CONTENT
The translation of texts in embedded objects (non-native graphics, etc.) in the source document that cannot be edited directly in Word shall always be handled as per option A, unless otherwise agreed between the client and translator. (A - B - C)
The translator cannot be responsible for the exact placement of headers and footers, if they are placed on the top layer of the document or in textboxes, instead of the Headers and Footers section.
The translator cannot be responsible for not retaining exactly the original layout of lists that have not been formatted with the help of Bullets and Numbering dialog-box and mix up when the text is changed.
TEMPLATES
The translator shall not be required to reproduce any feature of the layout of the source document which is not controlled by an appropriate component of the source document template, and/or has not been created in accordance with the software manufacturer's recommended instructions for use. (B - C)
At the request of the translator, the client shall provide a copy of the template used when creating the source document, and of the template to be used for the target document (where such already exists).
Unless agreed otherwise, any template built by the translator, even if derived from one supplied by the client, shall remain the property of the translator, who may re-use it for future work for the same client or adapt it for other clients.
PRICES
The translator's offered price for translation of the document (per source word, per target word, etc, as apppropriate) shall correspond to the delivery of a translation according to option A.
All additional work necessary to satisfy options B or C shall be quoted and agreed separately, on a 'per hour' basis, and shall fully itemized in the invoice.
...........
HTH
MediaMatrix
* Just for the record: I've been a Word user since the days of Win 3.1. For 10 years (in the 1980s-90s) I was head of technical publications in an international organization, during which time I was responsible for setting up in-house DTP (Interleaf) for the organization's entire range of technical and non-technical publications.
[Edited at 2006-11-11 14:19]
| | | | NMR (X)
France
Local time: 11:13
French to Dutch
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| Agree, but... | Nov 11, 2006 |
mediamatrix wrote:
The Client:
- Should learn something about document production and the relative merits of word-processors and DTP systems.
- Should know how Word it supposed to be used and take pride in using it properly.
What to do if the client (or his secretary), uses spaces instead of tabs? Or columns instead of tables (beginning with everything that is in the 1st column, then everything that is in the 2nd column, etc.)? Or hard returns to go to the next line, and lots of hard returns to go to the following page? Or unusual fonts?
- Should produce the source document with the aid of a well-designed template ....
In my opinion, there are not many clients who know what templates are.
By referring to "complicated formatting", I didn't say "proper formatting". Clients sometimes think that from the moment it is in Word, it is translatable and it will have the same appearance. Is the translator required to "repair" all these things? Should we do client education, or give courses?
The Translator:
- Should learn something about document production and the relative merits of word-processors and DTP systems.
- Should know how Word is supposed to be used and take pride in using it properly.
...
Agree.
In cases where any one (or more) of those rules is not or cannot be applied, I always inform the client that I will deliver text 'by the kilometer' and let the client handle the layout.
Agree. But this should be decided beforehand.
| | | | | The best way to lose a client is to modify the client's formatting without his (her) sanction | Nov 11, 2006 |
Henrik Pipoyan wrote: Vitaly Satskov wrote:
Many clients are not translation specialists. Many of them think that a translation consists in replacing the source letters with the same quantity of target letters, without having to modify any source formatting. I agree completely with you, but educating clients is not always possible, and sometimes it may even cost us a client. Explaining an ignorant client that they will not receive what they expect is a rather tricky task, especially when it is done by the service provider. They may just think that the translator is trying to make his/her task easier. This has happened to me before. This is another reason why we need to set up something like “rules” or "conditions" on this site. Of course these rules cannot be enforced, but it will be hard for a client to ignore the issues that have been published on a professional site of translators long before that particular order was placed, by people who have never known the client and are not interested parties, and yet they explain that certain things are impossible or cannot be included in translator's responsibilities.
Clients hate that. Let's imagine that a client spent a week preparing and fine-tuning his (her) formatting. So, he (she) expects that the formatting will remain intact after the translation of the document. If during a translation I see that the target text does not fit into the source formatted text box, I contact the client and explain him (her) that the target text contains, say, more letters and/or words and so does not fit into the text box. The client always understands, and quickly. They are not idiots, they just do not think about it. And I suggest some solutions. Say, I can modify the formatting of the text box or I can leave the source text in the text box untranslated and translate it separately, and the client then will be able to cut/paste the translated text into the text box and modify the formatting. Yes, we are translation service providers. But we are not formatting service providers and we are not formatting service specialists. So, why should I touch the client's formatting if I am not a specialist and if the client does not agree? That way I would lose the client very quickly.
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 05:13
Spanish to English
+ ...
| 'touching the client's formatting' is not the issue here | Nov 11, 2006 |
Vitaly Satskov wrote:
... we are not formatting service providers and we are not formatting service specialists.
Well actually, some of us ARE formatting service providers/specialists, as well as translators.
So, why should I touch the client's formatting if I am not a specialist and if the client does not agree? That way I would lose the client very quickly.
As I mentioned previously, the issue here is not whether we should 'touch the client's formatting', but whether - and under what conditions - we should should attempt to reproduce it.
If, as you say, "... a client spent a week preparing and fine-tuning his (her) formatting ..." but has done it without due regard to the correct use of the tools provided for this purpose, then the client can jolly well spend another week fiddling with the translation layout, too! All they'll get from me is 'text by the km'.
MediaMatrix
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| On educating clients | Nov 11, 2006 |
Vitaly Satskov wrote:
Clients hate that. Let's imagine that a client spent a week preparing and fine-tuning his (her) formatting. So, he (she) expects that the formatting will remain intact after the translation of the document. If during a translation I see that the target text does not fit into the source formatted text box, I contact the client and explain him (her) that the target text contains, say, more letters and/or words and so does not fit into the text box. The client always understands, and quickly. They are not idiots, they just do not think about it. And I suggest some solutions. Say, I can modify the formatting of the text box or I can leave the source text in the text box untranslated and translate it separately, and the client then will be able to cut/paste the translated text into the text box and modify the formatting. Yes, we are translation service providers. But we are not formatting service providers and we are not formatting service specialists. So, why should I touch the client's formatting if I am not a specialist and if the client does not agree? That way I would lose the client very quickly.
Not only do I completely agree with you, but I think and do exactly the way you do. Even if I were a certified DTP specialist, I would never "improve" the client's formatting, unless expressly instructed or asked by the client, no matter how “ugly” or incorrect it may seem to me. I think it’s just a polite way of saying the client that they don’t know the program or have bad taste, and I don’t think anyone would like to hear this. The point I am making is that we never know how well the client knows the program and translation business, and consequently we don’t know what will frustrate them. It is practically impossible to explain each client in detail what they are going to receive, or to warn them each time there is going to be a minor inconsistency with the original. So the basic things that are likely to cause problems can be discussed, organized and published here. Translators can send these “problematic issues” to the clients before accepting an order, or they may refer the clients to these pages, if they have worked without spefifying the conditions or any PO and have such problem after the translation. And eventually, I hope that we can also come up with some type of sample Agreement that translators can modify according to their needs and sign with their clients. Usually in other business it's always the service provider who makes the agreement, but in our case, maybe with rare exceptions, it is mostly the clients (the translation agencies) that have us sign their agreements and POs, in which translators’ interests are almost ignored. If experienced translators can anticipate most possible problems, not only formatting, but also other matters, like the % allowed mistakes in a translation, accurate definitions of “translation”, "editing", "proofreading", “DTP”, etc., I think both we and our clients will only benefit from it.
| | | | | I was talking about the case of the author of this topic only. | Nov 11, 2006 |
mediamatrix wrote: Vitaly Satskov wrote:
... we are not formatting service providers and we are not formatting service specialists.
Well actually, some of us ARE formatting service providers/specialists, as well as translators.
So, why should I touch the client's formatting if I am not a specialist and if the client does not agree? That way I would lose the client very quickly.
As I mentioned previously, the issue here is not whether we should 'touch the client's formatting', but whether - and under what conditions - we should should attempt to reproduce it. If, as you say, "... a client spent a week preparing and fine-tuning his (her) formatting ..." but has done it without due regard to the correct use of the tools provided for this purpose, then the client can jolly well spend another week fiddling with the translation layout, too! All they'll get from me is 'text by the km'. MediaMatrix
Not in general. She stated that she was not a formatting specialist but nevertheless she modified the client's formatting without consulting her client. I think she was wrong.
You are right, many clients consider themselves advanced Microsoft Word users or specialists and they are not. In many cases their source formatting is incorrect. So, if I see that my target text does not fit into the client's complex (and maybe incorrect) formatting, I prefer to translate it separately, as plain text, and suggest it to the client. Why should I waste time and nerves trying to modify messy source formatting? The only thing I would get is more mess and client's anger.
And please explain what your expression "text by the km" means.
| | | | | In general, I support your idea about publishing some rules here. | Nov 11, 2006 |
Henrik Pipoyan wrote: Vitaly Satskov wrote:
Clients hate that. Let's imagine that a client spent a week preparing and fine-tuning his (her) formatting. So, he (she) expects that the formatting will remain intact after the translation of the document. If during a translation I see that the target text does not fit into the source formatted text box, I contact the client and explain him (her) that the target text contains, say, more letters and/or words and so does not fit into the text box. The client always understands, and quickly. They are not idiots, they just do not think about it. And I suggest some solutions. Say, I can modify the formatting of the text box or I can leave the source text in the text box untranslated and translate it separately, and the client then will be able to cut/paste the translated text into the text box and modify the formatting. Yes, we are translation service providers. But we are not formatting service providers and we are not formatting service specialists. So, why should I touch the client's formatting if I am not a specialist and if the client does not agree? That way I would lose the client very quickly. Not only do I completely agree with you, but I think and do exactly the way you do. Even if I were a certified DTP specialist, I would never "improve" the client's formatting, unless expressly instructed or asked by the client, no matter how “ugly” or incorrect it may seem to me. I think it’s just a polite way of saying the client that they don’t know the program or have bad taste, and I don’t think anyone would like to hear this. The point I am making is that we never know how well the client knows the program and translation business, and consequently we don’t know what will frustrate them. It is practically impossible to explain each client in detail what they are going to receive, or to warn them each time there is going to be a minor inconsistency with the original. So the basic things that are likely to cause problems can be discussed, organized and published here. Translators can send these “problematic issues” to the clients before accepting an order, or they may refer the clients to these pages, if they have worked without spefifying the conditions or any PO and have such problem after the translation. And eventually, I hope that we can also come up with some type of sample Agreement that translators can modify according to their needs and sign with their clients. Usually in other business it's always the service provider who makes the agreement, but in our case, maybe with rare exceptions, it is mostly the clients (the translation agencies) that have us sign their agreements and POs, in which translators’ interests are almost ignored. If experienced translators can anticipate most possible problems, not only formatting, but also other matters, like the % allowed mistakes in a translation, accurate definitions of “translation”, "editing", "proofreading", “DTP”, etc., I think both we and our clients will only benefit from it.
Rules about formatting, layouts, and other aspects. But the problem is that this is a commercial site. It is not a site of an official translation organization or governmental body. Many clients do not know about this site, do not know about its rank within our business, so any opinion here may be irrelevant to our clients.
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I did NOT modify the formatting, I tried to avoid obvious things like overlapping text boxes, sometimes just selected smaller fonts, nothing really great. The point is that my client complaints I have not made "all" modifications he ment I should have done. And I really didn't more formatting alterations, because: 1. I was asked to translate the text, and 2. I didn't want to make real great changes, because there were so much different factors I had to take care, that there was the risk to mess ... See more I did NOT modify the formatting, I tried to avoid obvious things like overlapping text boxes, sometimes just selected smaller fonts, nothing really great. The point is that my client complaints I have not made "all" modifications he ment I should have done. And I really didn't more formatting alterations, because: 1. I was asked to translate the text, and 2. I didn't want to make real great changes, because there were so much different factors I had to take care, that there was the risk to mess up the whole document. It was in Word! With pictures, text boxes with different fonts, colors, diagrams, photos...
Actually I was shocked when he called angry telling me I should do the entire formatting! I have never been told to do it before, clients want me to do translations, and that was what he asked me to do, too. ▲ Collapse
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mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 05:13
Spanish to English
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| text by the km - and blame | Nov 11, 2006 |
Vitaly Satskov wrote:
And please explain what your expression "text by the km" means.
It's a literal translation of the common French expression: 'texte au kilomètre' - what you yourself refer to as 'plain text'.
As regards the topic of this debate, I can see nowhere in the original post from Constance to suggest that she "modified the client's formatting without consulting her client".
Less still, that she - as you stated in an earlier post: "... messed up the document."
It was - and still is - my understanding that the source document layout was already a mess (technically, if not visually) and Constance was unsuccessful in her attempt to reproduce a matching layout in the translation.
For the client - and less still you, Vitaly, to blame Constance for that 'failing' in that specific situation is, I suggest, unreasonable.
MediaMatrix
PS - While I was writing this, Constance has posted confirming the above interpretation.
[Edited at 2006-11-11 22:53]
| | | | Ruxi
German to Romanian
+ ...
| It is not about Word | Nov 12, 2006 |
I don't think Word is the problem here, but .pdf files and their converting.
First of all one can not know how the .pdf document was initially produced and then by converting it in Word in order to translate, you get the document changed.
After finishing in Word and re-converting in .pdf, other changes may occur.
I do not understand the sense of .pdf files and who needs them after all.
In Word you can do a lot of things with more or less work.
And also, it is not a... See more I don't think Word is the problem here, but .pdf files and their converting.
First of all one can not know how the .pdf document was initially produced and then by converting it in Word in order to translate, you get the document changed.
After finishing in Word and re-converting in .pdf, other changes may occur.
I do not understand the sense of .pdf files and who needs them after all.
In Word you can do a lot of things with more or less work.
And also, it is not about improving or changing the document of the client, but about correcting the changes occured by conversions, or translating texts of pictures, tables aso.
E.g with your /translation language you can get more rows and then only space for less pictures on a page or the table changes or I don't know and then you have to work to bring it again more or less similar to the original document, in case you can do it.
Regarding the suggestions of mediamatrix: I would say the only necessary thing would be:
"The text to be translated should be given by the client only in form of Office files and without any pictures, frames and decorations and should be returned by the translator in the same way. No .pdf, -jpg. scanned or other form of documents."
I don't know if CAT also change layouts and produce changes in initial documents. ▲ Collapse
| | | | mediamatrix (X)
Local time: 05:13
Spanish to English
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| PDFs, scans ... and forgeries | Nov 12, 2006 |
Ruxi wrote:
I don't think Word is the problem here, but .pdf files and their converting.
First of all one can not know how the .pdf document was initially produced and then by converting it in Word in order to translate, you get the document changed.
After finishing in Word and re-converting in .pdf, other changes may occur.
The problem, as posed by Constance, was specifically about Word, and the suggestions from Henrik and myself have been addressing the layout of translations of source document provided by the client in Word.
The .pdf problem is quite different, because there is nothing in the source document to indicate how it was created, hence no clues on how to reproduce the layout.
Claudia mentioned the use of a scanner - the problem is that present-day OCR software can extract the words and make decisions about how they might be positioned on the page, but cannot (yet?) apply a Word template so that the scanned text is actually structured 'as if' it had been created using the template in the first place.
As a result, even pages with quite simple layout tend to get split up into small pieces - paragraphs of text, floating text boxes and even images of individual letters - which are a nightmare for the translator. There is no way, in those circumstances, that the translation will look just like the source document, however hard the translator fiddles with it.
Ruxi wrote:
I do not understand the sense of .pdf files and who needs them after all.
The 'sense' of .pdf files is related primarily to the fact that they can be read using a wide variety of programs running on a wide variety of software platforms. Indeed, .pdf means 'portable document format' - in theory you can take a copy with you and display it on any computer, anywhere. In the early days - when Adobe still had firm control over it - it was a secure format, too, since it was difficult to change the content, and it had quite strong password control. That has changed - now many of us have .pdf editors that can hack these files almost as easily as we play with Word files .
Ruxi wrote:
In Word you can do a lot of things with more or less work.
And also, it is not about improving or changing the document of the client, but about correcting the changes occured by conversions, or translating texts of pictures, tables aso.
E.g with your /translation language you can get more rows and then only space for less pictures on a page or the table changes or I don't know and then you have to work to bring it again more or less similar to the original document, in case you can do it.
That's right. And what I'm suggesting is that if the client can demonstrate that (s)he has taken the trouble to produce the source document through correct use of Word's template functionality, then I am prepared to apply my skills in typography and reproduce that layout in the translation. But if the client is happy to use hard spaces instead of tabs to get the source text to line up nicely, then I am not prepared to waste time and effort doing likewise.
Ruxi wrote:
Regarding the suggestions of mediamatrix: I would say the only necessary thing would be:
"The text to be translated should be given by the client only in form of Office files and without any pictures, frames and decorations and should be returned by the translator in the same way. No .pdf, -jpg. scanned or other form of documents."
You are assuming that the client has control over the source document, which is not always the case. Surely the translator should be prepared to translate 'any' source material - but should be clear in their negotiations with the client as regards the form in which the translation will be delivered.
I have no reason not to translate a barely-legibile hand-written fax - but I will explain to my client that the translation will be a plain text looking similar to what would be produced by an old-frashioned typewriter. If the client wants me to reproduce the handwriting of the author I will give them the address of 'a friend of a friend' who's cousin is married to a good forger.
MediaMatrix
| | | | | Definitely not! | Dec 30, 2006 |
Claudia Iglesias wrote:
Isn't it a rule to deliver translations looking like originals?
Claudia
To translate is to convert text content from one language to another. Or have you never heard of the times when translators worked with a quill, a fountain pen, a typewriter, whatever writing instrument?
Okay, if your cleaning maid cooks you dinner, if a clerk at the office makes you coffee, if your video rental place gives you popcorn, whatever, if your hairdresser does your manicure, they are going beyond their duties.
It's a matter of negotiating. Just like some cleaning maids are unable to cook decently and others will do it for some extra money, some translators lack the DTP skills/resources while others will do it for some additional pay.
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