| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Rates' dependence on country of residence Thread poster: Speranza
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Aurora Humarán (X) 
Argentina
Local time: 06:06
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Country of residence / International Rates | Dec 21, 2006 |
I am really sorry for those workers hired by the famous multinational (whichever) in a far country (whichever) so that the famous multinational will duplicate (triplicate...) its earnings. We have all read about the negative sides of globalization, so there is no need to bring up an issue border with politics (not allowed in the site.)
Now... do we realize that the same is happening in our profession? As this is my guild, and here I do have a voice, I keep repeating: we should not... See more I am really sorry for those workers hired by the famous multinational (whichever) in a far country (whichever) so that the famous multinational will duplicate (triplicate...) its earnings. We have all read about the negative sides of globalization, so there is no need to bring up an issue border with politics (not allowed in the site.)
Now... do we realize that the same is happening in our profession? As this is my guild, and here I do have a voice, I keep repeating: we should not allow globalization to benefit only a few! (=agencies that go to Russia, Argentina in search for good translators? no! cheap translators! )
My country must be one of the least stable ones in the world so we Argentinians should never apply a local rate to an international translation job. Our peso has had unbelievable behaviors (well, so have our governments! ) and anything can happen, from a monthly inflation of 196,5% to our bank accounts being 'frozen' by the government.
We should all have a same target: international rates. I don't know if the FIT is working in that direction, but I think it is a necessary one, also key for an underlying issue: our lack of recognition as professionals.
If we take advantage of the Internet to reach international markets, we should also take advantage of international rates.
We are living key times in which we (freelancers) have to move faster than the more powerful parties and set the standards.
Au
Those who read Spanish may be interested in reading this article I wrote.
(I promise I will have it translated into English soon).
http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/462/1/Avivando-colegas---Traductores-argentinos:-CAPACITADOS-Y-BARATOS:-IRRESISTIBLES
[Editado a las 2006-12-21 16:42] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Speranza
Local time: 11:06
Spanish to Russian
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TOPIC STARTER | Thanks for your support! | Dec 21, 2006 |
Dear colleagues,
thanks a lot for your support, I feel much better now.
Margreet, you've found the right words! They sound much more polite than the things that were coming to my mind
Khalid, thanks for making the whole thing look funny rather than irritating.
Hipyan, good to hear you've never encountered anything like this, hopefully this attitude is not comm... See more Dear colleagues,
thanks a lot for your support, I feel much better now.
Margreet, you've found the right words! They sound much more polite than the things that were coming to my mind
Khalid, thanks for making the whole thing look funny rather than irritating.
Hipyan, good to hear you've never encountered anything like this, hopefully this attitude is not common.
I see your point Maciek, but honestly can't agree. OK, it takes less money to survive in Poland than in the U.K., but who said you should earn just enough to survive? Are clients the ones to decide what you need and what you don't? What is that, an updated version of social justice in the era of globalization? I, for one, love to travel (again, who said I shouldn't?). It takes money to get to Europe, then I pay what locals pay plus a rent that is higher than it would be if I lived there for years. Should I get my clients' permission to do so or just forget about it because I don't deserve this luxury?
Zara in Moscow is about four times more expensive than Zara in Barcelona. French make-up in St.Petersburg costs as much as in France plus transportation expenses. In local restaurants, I pay at least as much as I do in Europe. And don't tell me none of the above is a basic need. I spent years learning all my languages (you undoubtedly did the same), I am good as you (in professional sense), and I don't see why I should restrict myself to basic needs.
Lia, "your rates are too high because other translators with a similar expertise make better offers" sounds entirely ok to me: this is the market and this is competition. But this is not the case. I simply live in a wrong place, that's it!
Sabina, this is exactly what I feel, and I'm happy to hear I'm not alone.
Saifa, in my opinion even if you decide to spend a year on a desert island with a satellite connection to the Internet, it makes no difference at all in terms of rates as long as you keep providing the same services of the same quality.
Bill, that's an interesting point, and probably this is what I should reply (I haven't yet: giving myself some time to cool down before I do). Excellent idea, thank you!
Angela, it's not about my expertise or price competition, that's the problem. The guy is simply saying it's weird to pay that much to someone who lives where I live. Presumably if I take a plane to NY, eight hours from now I'll be good enough for my rates.
Mark, you are right, maybe this is what I should have done at the very beginning. But I really wanted to know what other people in this market think about the situation. Like I said, I feel better now.
Andrea, I agree with what you say about the global market. As to its being crowded, do you think the person in question was simply trying to make sure I don't get lost there?
Irene, I have to admit I like you more and more every time I read what you write!
Tuliparola, exactly! The cost of food and housing is simply irrelevant, that's what I was trying to say.
Aurora, looks like the issue is of interest to many of our colleagues, so that maybe we could at least try to change something here.
[Edited at 2006-12-21 16:48] ▲ Collapse
| | | | anulka
Finland
Local time: 12:06
German to Polish
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| I feel your pain, Nadejda. | Dec 21, 2006 |
I translate into Polish and live in Munich, a very expensive city indeed. However many outsourcers still think that Polish is the "cheaper" target language and offer very low rates, no matter if you live in New York or in Warsaw. Luckily my customers appreciate the quality and are ready to pay for it and I also have this good feeling that I am not "damaging" translation market by offering very low rates. And of course, I don't work for Polish agencies at all, I could never compete with qualified... See more I translate into Polish and live in Munich, a very expensive city indeed. However many outsourcers still think that Polish is the "cheaper" target language and offer very low rates, no matter if you live in New York or in Warsaw. Luckily my customers appreciate the quality and are ready to pay for it and I also have this good feeling that I am not "damaging" translation market by offering very low rates. And of course, I don't work for Polish agencies at all, I could never compete with qualified translators offering about 7 EUR per 1800 characters, for them even job offers from India are extremely attractive... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Rates. And so forth. | Dec 21, 2006 |
Nadeja,
I understand your frustration. I’m not American but I live in the United States. Living in the United States, I charge certain rates. Except for charity, when I translate for free, the minimum rate I charge is absolutely non-negotiable.
If someone were to tell me that I should charge less because I don’t live in Denmark, I would tell them (politely) to shove their offer where the sun doesn’t shine. Of course, Danes pay about 50 percent tax. And, of course... See more Nadeja,
I understand your frustration. I’m not American but I live in the United States. Living in the United States, I charge certain rates. Except for charity, when I translate for free, the minimum rate I charge is absolutely non-negotiable.
If someone were to tell me that I should charge less because I don’t live in Denmark, I would tell them (politely) to shove their offer where the sun doesn’t shine. Of course, Danes pay about 50 percent tax. And, of course, Danes get things in return for their tax, things that are important. Things like cradle-to-grave security with decent pensions, and excellent healthcare, and a truly tremendous public education system. On the upward trend of history, I suspect (or at least I hope), in the end, we are all going to be Danes.
In other words, to me at least (and, I suspect, to billions of my fellow humans), geography matters a lot … It matters an awful lot.
Margreet said
It's the quality of your work that determines the price, not your hometown.
and Mark said
At the end of the day, geography is irrelevant, it's the quality of the service you provide that counts.
I shouldn’t speak for anyone else, but I suspect that most economic geographers would disagree with you on that point. Indeed, if these assertions were true, then equally-skilled factory workers in Chicago and Tegucigalpa would earn the same income. Demonstrably, they don’t. And the reasons why they don’t are so obvious as to go without saying.
Lia Fail said this:
Leaving all quality issues aside, as it's got nothing to do with where you live, the client is entitled to deliberately seek cheaper translators from cheaper countries. The translator is also entitled to deliberately seek better paid translations from richer countries.
This is absolutely and indisputably true. The thread is spreading faster than I can read it, so I want to retrieve Lia’s insight before it gets buried in all that follows. If you’re in the market as a translator from English to Spanish, for example, or if (like me) you’re in the Spanish-to-English market, then the location of your home has no bearing whatever on the quality of your translations. Absolutely none. You might live in Madrid or you might live in Quito. You might live in New York City or you might live in Castries, St. Lucia. Only a true idiot with a dubious outlook on humanity would suggest that your location determines your quality as a translator.
But your location (pace Margreet) might well determine the fees that you can realistically charge. Geography matters. In just about every reputable study of human development, geography matters a lot. Other things matter, of course (your country’s natural-resource endowment, the quality of its government institutions, whether you do or do not educate your female population, and so on), but geography—sadly or not, or perhaps just inevitably—is pretty crucial. An unfashionable thing to say, these days, but nonetheless true.
Sabina Metcalf averred that:
if you are positioning yourself on American translation market and offering much lower rates than average American translators charge, it would be highly unethical and referred to as 'dumping policy'. As simple as that!
People already do it, and it is nowhere referred to as a ‘dumping policy’. It’s an area thus far unaddressed by the member governments of the WTO, and one without a constituency that is prepared to mobilize. You raise beef in France, and those cheap people in Argentina (source of the world’s greatest beef, a beef so great it is almost inconceivable to a European or an American who has never tasted it) are pricing you out of the market? Well, hell, organize a lobby. Petition the government. Call Washington. Call Brussels. Let the dullards in the poor suits arrange it. It will get fixed. You will be protected.
But there is nothing ‘unethical’ about charging low translation rates in the US market. It’s the abomination of things like the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy that is unethical. Have you seen what market regulation in Europe has done to Argentina?
And from Argentina, Aurora Humarán wrote:
We should all have a same target: international rates. I don't know if the FIT is working in that direction, but I think it is a necessary one,
But Aurora, how do you propose going about this? In the international development business, the goodness of an initiative is marked by how much its goals are measurable, and the quality of the criteria used to measure progress towards those goals, and the validity of the mechanisms used to enforce actions that are conducive to the goals. How on Earth does one try to impose a world-wide translation rate? On which bases?
Look at it this way. Very often, I take my talents to the market as a translator. Sometimes, I write stuff that someone else has to translate. Hand-on-heart, a true thing. I wrote a book and, at the beginning of March, Oxford University Press will publish it. It’s a book about Nicaraguan history. I suspect that there might be interest in this book among some Latin American political scientists and historians. I would like to get this book translated into Spanish.
Now, I’m proud of the book as it is. I think its English is pretty good. I want the best Spanish translation I can get. So, let’s say, I find a great translator in Barcelona and an equally great translator in Managua. They are both great writers. The guy in Barcelona has read all his García Lorca and the guy in Managua has read all his Rubén Darío.
Is it unreasonable of me to expect that the guy in Managua will charge less? I’ve lived in Managua, for a long time. And I’ve lived in Madrid for even longer. I have limited funds. And I know that the two guys, the one in Managua and the one in Madrid, will be able to do very different things with the few thousand dollars I can pay as a fee.
I can guarantee that the person in Managua, unless he or she is even better than I am as a writer, and can produce a Spanish translation that is better than the English original (as García Márquez is reported to have said about Rabassa’s translation of ‘Cien Años’) will charge less. And if the Managuan and the Catalán are equal in quality, I’ll go for the Nicaraguan. I get the same thing for less money, two people gain (me and the Nicaraguan) and nobody gets hurt.
Unless there’s a mistake in my logic somewhere … But I’m sure others will let me know if there is ...
[Edited at 2006-12-21 19:33] ▲ Collapse
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Maciek Drobka
Poland
Local time: 11:06
Member (2006)
English to Polish
+ ...
| Different realities | Dec 21, 2006 |
Nadejda Sokolova wrote:
I see your point Maciek, but honestly can't agree. OK, it takes less money to survive in Poland than in the U.K., but who said you should earn just enough to survive?
I thought I made it clear that what I earn is substantially more than just enough to survive.
I see your point, Nadejda, and I accept it, even though it's not exactly compatible with mine.
I'm wondering why we can't seem to realy meet on the issue. It seems to me that most of the people in this thread are from a bit different reality than mine; and I mean it in an entirely neutral way.
I started translating several years ago from what is now about EUR0.02/word. As I said, my average rate now is EUR0.04/word, and I am happy to accept jobs priced at EUR0.05-0.06/word. These jobs only come from international outsourcers; if you work with agencies in Poland, you rarely go above EUR0.03/word.
Come 2007, I am planning a major marketing effort aimed at Western European agencies, which among others will hopefully boost my average rate. But I can't just say, 'OK, from this day on, I will only work for at least EUR0.09/word,' because I'd most likely have to close down my business sooner than later. I have to do this gradually.
It would be interesting/instructive to learn how you people started, and how your average rate has developed over the years. That might explain more.
Regards,
Maciek
| | | | Maciek Drobka
Poland
Local time: 11:06
Member (2006)
English to Polish
+ ...
| Enforced how? | Dec 21, 2006 |
Aurora Humarán wrote:
We should all have a same target: international rates.
While I strongly disagree with this in principle, it's a side issue now.
What I would be interested to know is how do you think the international rates will be enforced?
How are you going to go about translators ready to work for half the standard international rate you prescribe? I am not being sarcastic, I'm really interested to know.
Maciek
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 06:06
English to Spanish
+ ...
| hola - Ethics | Dec 21, 2006 |
Maciek Drobka wrote:
What I would be interested to know is how do you think the international rates will be enforced?
Hola, Maciek.
I have been a member of the Colegio de Traductores Públicos de Buenos Aires for almost 25 years. Since 1985 (due to government regulations), our Colegio does not force us to charge a fixed fee, but suggests our professional fees. The Argentine community is HUGE and very active in this site, in other sites and in lots of translators' list. Fortunately, and thanks to the tireless efforts of the ones who are fighting against abusive rates in my country, more and more Argentinians are charging higher rates. Word of mouth! It does work!
Once you have rates that are fixed or that are set as guidelines, the whole community would know them and should charge them. That is how we do it in my country, one of the first ones with a law that regulates the profession (Law 20305). Sooner or later, we know who is breaking the market and here... is a matter of ethics.
As I have always shared (I know because I am contacted by many many colleagues on this is$ue), there are some Argentinian translators who are not aware of the international rates and accept to work for overseas agencies for 2 or 3 cents (or 1!!!). Trust me: once they know there is another possible world, they start charging higher rates.
Are there others who still harm the market? There are. Some because they are in desperate need, others for reasons I don't understand and don't share. But this group is smaller and smaller and its existence should not prevent us from continuing fighting for international (higher) rates.
How are you going to go about translators ready to work for half the standard international rate you prescribe? I am not being sarcastic, I'm really interested to know.
Maciek
Why would they work for 2 cents once they have evidence that they can work for 10 or more?
Au
[Editado a las 2006-12-21 20:05]
| | | | | Maciek poses the crucial, key, essential, unavoidable question ... | Dec 21, 2006 |
Maciek Drobka wrote:
What I would be interested to know is how do you think the international rates will be enforced?
I'd be interested to know that, too. The question is crucial and deserves an answer.
I remember the Brazilian Constitution during the Collor administration. It tried to protect the 'rights' of freelance photographers. It was hard to believe even at the time, and with hindsight it looks even more ludicrous.
It was a joke. A bad joke on the people of Brazil. And Mr. Collor's presidency, I believe, didn't have a happy ending.
So, to reiterate Maciek's question ... enforcement: how do you do it? If you can't enforce a law, of course, the law by definition is useless.
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Maciek Drobka
Poland
Local time: 11:06
Member (2006)
English to Polish
+ ...
| But how does this work in practice? | Dec 21, 2006 |
Aurora Humarán wrote:
Why would they work for 2 cents once they have evidence that they can work for 10 or more?
So there's a graduate with a translation degree (or other degree) who opens his freelance business. What does he/she do? Send out offers to translation agencies saying 'Hi, I have no experience, but am keen to work hard. My rate is 10 cents a word'? Do the same to direct clients?
It really sounds quite unreal to me that once people learn there is a prescribed 10 cents a word rate, they just start applying it and get as much work as they want.
What exactly does the translation law say about rates? Does it set a rate?
Maciek
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 06:06
English to Spanish
+ ...
Maciek Drobka wrote:
So there's a graduate with a translation degree (or other degree) who opens his freelance business. What does he/she do? Send out offers to translation agencies saying 'Hi, I have no experience, but am keen to work hard. My rate is 10 cents a word'? Do the same to direct clients?
I'm lost. Maciek, this is not what we are discussing (how to contact agencies/clients). There are lots of threads on 'how to' do it Also, had we segmented our conversation to junior translators? I don't think so.
We are talking about the rate a Peruvian, an Italian, a Russian or a Mexican should charge. (Rates' dependence on country of residence).
It really sounds quite unreal to me that once people learn there is a prescribed 10 cents a word rate, they just start applying it and get as much work as they want.
Then you don't believe me ? I went through that process and many colleagues did too. (Again, we are not discussing the time it takes a translator to properly position him/herself in the international market, we are discussing Rates' dependence on country of residence.)
It is obvious that the process will take more or less time depending on many variables: your own CV -to start with-, your areas of expertise, the money you invest to sell your services (I invest a lot and I'm surprised that some translators don't do it, one has to make things happen! ). Of course one's pair is key and one's ability to sell one's services.
What exactly does the translation law say about rates? Does it set a rate?
Maciek
As I told you above, neither the Colegio nor the law fix our fees: what the Colegio gives are 'guidelines'.
Regards,
Au
[Editado a las 2006-12-21 22:36]
| | | | Maciek Drobka
Poland
Local time: 11:06
Member (2006)
English to Polish
+ ...
| Must end it at this point | Dec 21, 2006 |
Aurora Humarán wrote:
...
Aurora, even though I am strongly against the solution you propose, what you say is really so interesting! However, the more I read, the more questions I have, and I must end it at this point or it'll go ad infinitum.
The only thing I can hope for is that we meet in person one day or another so I can learn all the things in detail.
Oh, and sorry for getting off-thread at one point.
Kind regards,
Maciek
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 06:06
English to Spanish
+ ...
Maciek Drobka wrote:
Aurora, even though I am strongly against the solution you propose,
Hey, I am not inventing the gunpowder!
what you say is really so interesting! However, the more I read, the more questions I have, and I must end it at this point or it'll go ad infinitum.
I am always ready to discuss rates. I plan to have a Volvo before I retire so this topic is key in my life.
The only thing I can hope for is that we meet in person one day or another so I can learn all the things in detail.
It would be a pleasure for me too!
Be safe.
Au
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Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 06:06
English to Spanish
+ ...
Jackie Bowman wrote:
But Aurora, how do you propose going about this?
I don't know. Let's FIT or similar organizations handle that. All I know is that most translators are starting to believe that this is the way our business should be handled. The guideline approach works at a smaller scale: in my country through our Colegio de Traductores, I see a very good example. (Our clients can have access to the fees the Colegio suggests too).
And if the Managuan and the Catalán are equal in quality, I’ll go for the Nicaraguan.
In your case, I would do the same, but you are considering a hypothetical translator who (for whatever reasons) wishes to charge less (by the way, how much lower would his fee be? What worries the English into Spanish community is a difference of 0.02 vs 0.10, not a minor detail...).
I get the same thing for less money, two people gain (me and the Nicaraguan) and nobody gets hurt.
Who can get hurt in my example?
In Argentina, there is a large community to cover the English > Spanish pair.
If the whole community started to work at 2 cents, the US community covering the same pair would be soon considering another profession. A large group of professionals would be hurt. I repeat: my pair in my country is HUGE! (Colegio de Traductores Públicos ONLY has approximately 6,000 certified translators...) The damage would be gigantic and most (all?) translators of this pair in the USA would have no more work.
The Argentine community would be working for the same rate we charge locally.
Argentine translators would be hurt too, because:
1) we would not be getting as much as we could,
2) our cost/benefit ratio is a very tricky one (cost of our infrastructure in dollars is a pain in the Trados.) Cost of cartridges, pcs, international memberships, wire transfers (not to mention the fees our banks charge... or the uncertainty! Uff....
3) and there is always the Sword of Damocles. (Our Xrate is CRAZY, totally unreliable. It's a suicide to tie such a big and important pair to a crazy country like mine)
So... another large group of professionals is hurt
Who wins? A small group of agencies that 'set the standard' first (typical situation of the globalized times we live in)
Let's compete with our skills irrespective of where we live.
OFF TOPIC:
Come to think of it, there is another risk here: Argentina (and other countries in similar situation) may become overcrowded You're all welcome to come here! Nice people, good food and wine, beautiful landscapes.
Have a great night everybody.
Au
[Editado a las 2006-12-22 03:54]
| | | | Aurora Humarán (X)
Argentina
Local time: 06:06
English to Spanish
+ ...
Jackie Bowman wrote:
Now, I’m proud of the book as it is. I think its English is pretty good. I want the best Spanish translation I can get. So, let’s say, I find a great translator in Barcelona and an equally great translator in Managua. They are both great writers. The guy in Barcelona has read all his García Lorca and the guy in Managua has read all his Rubén Darío.
Is it unreasonable of me to expect that the guy in Managua will charge less? I’ve lived in Managua, for a long time. And I’ve lived in Madrid for even longer. I have limited funds. And I know that the two guys, the one in Managua and the one in Madrid, will be able to do very different things with the few thousand dollars I can pay as a fee.
The question here is who sets the standards first, the person assigning a job or the translator?
If your translator in Managua has been reading what we have been exchanging for years on this issue, he might want to charge you even more than the average rate in Spain. You count on his being unaware. I can understand that in a personal project, but I (the translator) reject the way in which agencies are duplicating (and larger verbs ) their margins. That is what I don't like.
You might want to help me with this concept which I don't know how to transmit in English: nivelar hacia arriba.
This is what Au the (passionate) translator thinks and feels.
When Au, Aleph's CEO, looks for a translator, she looks for quality, even if she has to pay more (have a lower margin).
Au
| | | | Lia Fail (X)
Spain
Local time: 11:06
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I never said that! | Dec 22, 2006 |
Nadejda Sokolova wrote:
Dear colleagues,
thanks a lot for your support, I feel much better now.
Lia, "your rates are too high because other translators with a similar expertise make better offers" sounds entirely ok to me: this is the market and this is competition. But this is not the case. I simply live in a wrong place, that's it!
By using inverted commas you are implying that these are my exact words, which they are not! I never said anything about your rates being "too high". I simply referred to your rates in a possible context of generally lower rates - as happens with many translators, irrespective of the country they are in.
Ultimately, what I'm saying that anything goes in the frontierless translation market and it's best to deal with each situation on a case-by-case basis, to avoid getting offended or being offensive, and to just make your point, which in your case is, that your rates are not negotiable, full stop. Let the job offerer draw their own conclusions.
How can one live in the 'wrong place'? In fact, you are probably in a better position that translators in richer countries with possibly higher expenses (e.g. your competitor in the USA, possibly?)
That is not to go into the argument of which countries are richer or poorer, becuase even within countries there are expensive cities. And as one poster pointed out, it very much depends on one's own expenses: how many young translators live at home, how many translators don't have kids, how many translators have a penchant for expensive clothes, etc etc etc? Or even how new the business is to you: inexperienced translators tend to charge less. So...how long is a piece of string:-)
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