| Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Dear Henry, you\'r redefining market laws -and you\'re all on your own in this one! Thread poster: Carole Muller
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Henry, you wrote that I presented myself as someone with a deep insight in economics. Without going that far I\'d stay more to the ground: yes I have a PhD in Economic Engineering, yes my specialisation is how to achieve a given objective (high prices) and tackle the obstacles and hidden agendas in the environment where you conduct your strategy. But more interesting than my credentials are the following facts: I\'ve worked over 10 years as adviser in strategy for governments in several countrie... See more Henry, you wrote that I presented myself as someone with a deep insight in economics. Without going that far I\'d stay more to the ground: yes I have a PhD in Economic Engineering, yes my specialisation is how to achieve a given objective (high prices) and tackle the obstacles and hidden agendas in the environment where you conduct your strategy. But more interesting than my credentials are the following facts: I\'ve worked over 10 years as adviser in strategy for governments in several countries, for high-tech start ups and for...one of the biggest pan-European syndicates regrouping all trade unions of a given profession that\'I ll just call X for all member countries in the EU. My job was to be responsible for promoting their interests in the context of a research study financed by their counterpart-regrouping all employers of this trade.
I must say I learned a lot from my bosses there. Thanks to them I can see what kind of damage proz is doing to the profession. But as I said I also can see how some of us can just quietly exit proz and mind our own business promoting ourselves instead of promoting proz.
...back to your comments: this is self.invented Henry Dotterer theory- with all respect- I have to be quite hard on this:
YOUR COMMENT #1: \"Actually, it is easy to answer. The answer is \'no.\' \" this is your answer when I ask agencies whether they will like to squeeze their profits and increase rates to translators\".
YOUR MISTAKE #1: Some will, have no doubt. I charge my clients, those I had before joining proz, 0.30 EURO as a minimum per word, and THEY PAY GLADLY, even telling \"how cheap\" they used to pay agencies much more. The trick is to go out and find clients while you\'re busy translating. That\'s where I thought my 120 USD of Platinum fee were well invested with you. If you maintain all agencies will say \"no\" (which they won\'t all do) I see your market assessment is biased and my 120 USD was not a good investment in terms of this objective: to get the same good clients I get on my own and who pay decent rates and who pay them promptly.
YOUR COMMENT # 2:\" You have presented yourself as someone with a deep understanding of economics. Surely you know, then, that the economic reason any agency would engage in QA, or use accredited translators, is to *increase* profits (even if the payment to the translator must rise.) This is a basic tenet of free-market economics.
YOUR MISTAKE #2: here you\'re simply saying something that is your own invention. I have no idea what you understand by \"market mechanism\", \"profits\" or \"economics\" but is is not related to how these concepts interact.
Any economic agent engaging in QA is doing it for one or a mix of various reasons:
- controlling bodies,
- possible santions to loose their license (infringements on business, corporate or professional ethics or of consumer legislation)and then have to close the shop,
-lawsuits resulting from product failure or inappropriate service that might result in exit from the market/exclusion from the profession
- need to expand volume and not profits for strategic reasons
- need to differentiate themselves from the competition: i.e. the Volkswagen group has the AUDI range for luxury and top quality to show it is not only in the VW good-quality-middle price competition sector
-need to present with a professional image that cultivates the achievements of the person/company/ profession: i.e. you\'ll never see the Harvard Business School sell manuscripts written by a schoolkid somewhere in Cyberworld who got an Economics dictionary for Christmas, even if the dictioanry is from Oxford Press.
- a wish (for instance by a small company) to focus on and live up to the expectancies of a high-end clientele in order to achieve more pleasant working conditions, more interesting jobs, more prestigious image, and to keep higher rates and ensure the bases for future activities.
As you can see, QA is attractive as a strategic tool, and not only to increase profits. Further, QA is attractive by its value to those who simply have the need to perform in a context of high ethics. SUch value is scientifically quantifiable and is the subject of many metrics used in marketing, in policy analysis of voter preferences etc... It is imply part of human nature to strive for improvement. It\'s a survival instinct in nature. But some us are taught by others who found out before them, that it\'s possible to get a free-ride and cheat. It\'s a strategy.Some survive on quality, some survive on cheating. what dictates our choices are our moral values.
All economists, psychologists, police, judges, lawyers and professional religious soulmenders and many other spiritual leaders and followers know that some people commit acts due to the value they attach to property, while select actions due to the value they attribute to following an ethical code of behaviour.
Sociology research shows that the need to follow and apply a high code of ethis is related to (years of) learning and to professionalism in terms of a socialisation process.
Surely, you understand why you can\'t place everybody in the same bag, they end up fighting and hating each other.
And I do feel as a paying member that I should tell you that the membership registration fee is quite high compared to other online services offering for instance online advice on subscription basis.
There are for instance in Europe numerous market places for translators and free-lancer offering services for free or for lesser fees. What did attract to me to proz was your marketing tactic of stating the number of translators registered. I thought this must be it.
And I joined very fast, without staying around and looking for more before paying.
Now I\'m in for the fun of dialoguing with other translators, but Henry, believe me, not for the jobs. They are posted at indecent rates and the indecency is to create a market for these low rates and to make all other translators registered here and reading these forums think that THIS is the market. If you truly believe the unfounded stuff you write about QA and profits, then I guess your market assesment (is not correct and) is leading proz towards the low quality-low price marketing strategy for translations.
Thats\'fine with me, I believe there is a (maybe vast) market for that. But I don\'t think you can allow yourself on behalf of ALL agencies in the worls to say this is the onlystrategy they have or might choose -IF THEY WERE GIVEN THE CHOICE.
It\'s not the only marketing strategy. There alwasy will be a market for high quality-high price, but then I believe my mistake was to thinm you can address this market through a tactic like proz, which basically is made for the masses, while the high quality-high price segment wants and offers personalised client-provider solutions.
But I thank you and proz for providing a fun platform to meet other translators. I do hope you are not reselling our information details, fax, phone,in database formats, because I yet have to see a privacy policy notice on your site, and it would be a breach of marketing ethics if you did.
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| | | | | Response to Carole, clarifications | Dec 15, 2001 |
Carole,
Your postings are replete with inaccuracies. Perhaps you feel justified--having promising in advance that your postings will have errors--but how irresponsible! Please recognize that many of your inaccuracies will lead others astray.
Rather than debate you, I will simply clarify certain facts.
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Privacy policy
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This site has always had a privacy policy that is in conf... See more Carole,
Your postings are replete with inaccuracies. Perhaps you feel justified--having promising in advance that your postings will have errors--but how irresponsible! Please recognize that many of your inaccuracies will lead others astray.
Rather than debate you, I will simply clarify certain facts.
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Privacy policy
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This site has always had a privacy policy that is in conformance with the strictest standards. It is available online and is referenced througout the site.
See:
http://www.proz.com/?sp=info/index&ssp=misc
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Platinum membership fees
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You comments lead me to believe that you may regret your decision to become a platinum member of this site. (Though the reasons you cite for having made the decision remain valid.)
Please be informed that the Platinum membership fee is refundable at any time, on a prorated basis, and less applicable payment fees.
Incidentally, you say \"Now I\'m in for the fun of dialoguing with other translators, but Henry, believe me, not for the jobs. They are posted at indecent rates.\"
As you know, Carole, this statement will mislead most people to conclude that you have never accepted a job through ProZ.com.
Since you have taken part in an InstantJob, you already know that not every job at ProZ.com carries an \"indecent rate.\"
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My position on prices
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You asked, \"Will agencies like to cut profits and pay accredited translators more?\"
I said \"no\", meaning, by logical extension, \"no, agencies will not like to cut profits and pay accredited translators more\".
I stand by that. Few businesses hold among their objectives cutting profits.
Here, for your reference, is the rest of my statement, which I highlight in an attempt to focus your attention. I said, \"the economic reason any agency would engage in QA, or use accredited translators, is to *increase* profits (even if the payment to the translator must rise.)\";
In spite of your effusive posting, it is not clear to me with which part of this statement you disagree.
You touch on topics such as regulation, strategic market differentiation, lawsuits, and even \"people fighting and hating each other.\"
I make no points in any of those areas. What I said, paraphrased for clarity, is that the \"economic\" reason for a business to do something is to \"increase profits.\" It is peculiar that you, a self-professed specialist in \"how to achieve a given objective (high prices)\", find this controversial. You even go so so far as to dub it a \"self.invented Henry Dotterer theory.\" I wish I could take credit...but I am afraid Adam Smith beat me to it!
. . . . .
The above clarifications aside, I would like to extend an olive branch, Carole. The truth is, I share your objectives. That is why I am going to this length to respond. My business objective is to help every translator that uses this site, and every agency that uses this site, to maximize profit. I find translators and agencies underpaid, and have a game plan to change that. I also have non-economic objectives for this business. You can read about them in ProZ.com\'s Mission Statement (again, available since day one.)
And I consider it good fortune whenever I encounter a kindred spirit, even when his or her strategy may be completely different from my own.
Cheers and happy translating. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mats Wiman 
Sweden
Local time: 15:37
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
In memoriam | Step back an d reflect Carole | Dec 15, 2001 |
As one of the pour souls who have been a member since November 1999 let me give you some advice.
You as a newcomer, as many newcomers all over the world, seem to know everything better: Everything, every dimension, every aspect, every angle.
You do not hesitate to teach in a very condescendingt manner he founder of this fantastic site (by any measure) with so many qualities (part of which you benignly praise).
Stop behaving in this childish way. Take a deep breath ... See more As one of the pour souls who have been a member since November 1999 let me give you some advice.
You as a newcomer, as many newcomers all over the world, seem to know everything better: Everything, every dimension, every aspect, every angle.
You do not hesitate to teach in a very condescendingt manner he founder of this fantastic site (by any measure) with so many qualities (part of which you benignly praise).
Stop behaving in this childish way. Take a deep breath and reflect: Maybee you might have (the mind boggles at the thought) overseen something.
I suggest you remain the member you seem to be for some three months until you open your mouth again.
That you have been deriding me and us other poor \'point grabbers\' does not bother me so much but that you attack the concept and Henry, I cannot stand without saying something.
MW
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| | | | Carole Muller
Denmark
Local time: 15:37
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | Henry ,you are becoming too personal and out of way... | Dec 15, 2001 |
Henry,
I wonder why you need to be personal and offensive to maintain your views...
1. You call me self-professed just to be offensive, so go and look me up in International Who\'sWho\'s edition 2001-2002 for (a) Who\'sWho of Professionals and (b) Who\'s Who in Science and Engineering, or just look me up in the bibliography of my field (if you cant\' manage to make a livrary search, ask someone to help you)
2. Go and read your own Et... See more Henry,
I wonder why you need to be personal and offensive to maintain your views...
1. You call me self-professed just to be offensive, so go and look me up in International Who\'sWho\'s edition 2001-2002 for (a) Who\'sWho of Professionals and (b) Who\'s Who in Science and Engineering, or just look me up in the bibliography of my field (if you cant\' manage to make a livrary search, ask someone to help you)
2. Go and read your own Etiquette rules for posting on the proz.com site before you start posting something offensive.
3. While you are at the reading, try and read some college books on neo-classistic theory etc... my point is exactly what you have fun about,Henry: a lot of water has flown under the bridge since Adam Smith, just as we know now, that the sun revolves around the earth and not the other way round, although you may quote as distinguished philosophers as Adam Smith to have maintained the opposite through out centuries. And many people got killed for challenging this view, by those who were frightened to loose the power they thought was linked to this erroneous view.
4. Thank you for clarifying that the Platinum rate is refundable, I will consider, however as I told you it\'s fun to meet other people. Of course, you \'re right, it\'s possible to do so for free.
5. Thank you for awarding me this Instant job: 5.95 USD for 3 hours work, because the way the work is organised is not serving quality and making both translator and reviewer frustrated (I must say the translator is a great guy and I thank him for his kindness and cooperation, he is really sweet, hope he reads this).
So 2 USD per hour for doing highly qualified work (this was a very complex article), for doing it between 22:00 and 02:00, because you organise teams in a way that makes no sense, sending it first for translation to a translator living on the American continent in a zone GMT-6 or 7 then to a reviewer living in another time zone where the work has to start at 23:00 FOR $ 5.95 MIND YOU
(he got it at 12:00 and sent it to me at 15:00 his time, which was 22:00 my time).
I don\'t think you can allow yourself to call these DECENT rates and I thank you for giving me the opportunity to tell you that I am declining future Instant Jobs for the same reason.
I reviewed 300 words of a very dense and quite complex text, an abstract of a scientific article about new methods for psychotherapy, worked 3 hours on understanding it and comparing it to the translation, researched the topic, placed two calls at 23:00 to professional contacts, one, a psychiatrist who is my partner and the editor of a distinguished medical journal under the Nature Publishing Group, for whom I worked as editor and kept close ties with the editor(and they always need medical editors and proofreaders, so I was going to recommend proz).
Through an agency the translation + reviewing would be invoiced approximately: a minimum of $42 to $71 on my markets (Scandinavia) and probably a good agency would be able to get more, since it is technically requiring text.
You inquired at 24:00 about the processing and I received 5.95 USD, which you will not pay me until they accumulate to 100 USD (or whatever) because I do not want to use paypal, and then you simply do not transfer the money- as stated in your terms and that was OK with me, you must understand by now I did not do it for the money.
So I hereby grant you to keep this wonderful pay of 5.95 USD for 3 HOURS WORK AND TWO INTERNATIONAL CALLS and go and get yourself a doughnut or something with the money so you can have a nicer outlook at the world.
I fail to see how you can improve the site and the market by throwing dirt on those who can contribute. We all have our specific domain experience and life experience and only fools reject an offer to help.
To drag into this debate any little bit of info you have and which you could use against me such as \"haha you talk and you said yes to one of my Instant JOB\", \"haha you make inacurate statements and you warned us about it (no Henry, I said my laptop\'s keyboard has an electronic problem which cannot be fixed and I am not in my office), or you say about my postings \"your effusive statements\" does not add weight to you arguments, which remain loose and unfounded.
Facts are :
-you promote rate cutting mechanisms
-you offer yourelf through Instant Jobs ridiculous rates which
-you do not even transfer (that\'s really not to blame you though, the amount you pay is too little as compared to the cost the banks would charge for transferring the money).
It seems to me you simply needed to have this outburst against my credentials, but honestly who cares? Those who need to know, they know.
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Mats Wiman
Sweden
Local time: 15:37
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...
In memoriam | My friendly suggestion: Cancel your membership and leave! | Dec 15, 2001 |
It\'s just my friendly advice to you.
Start something new with Werner Patels and Good Luck!
| | | | | The rate for the InstantJob was 10 cents per word / 3 cents per word | Dec 15, 2001 |
Carole,
The job you accepted, like many InstantJobs, paid 10 cents per word for translation, 3 cents per word for checking. These rates are respectable by most standards, especially considering the following:
- InstantJobs do not require bidding or sales efforts of any kind
- You could see the work before you accepted it
- Payment was guaranteed
- Payment was instant, no invoice required ... See more Carole,
The job you accepted, like many InstantJobs, paid 10 cents per word for translation, 3 cents per word for checking. These rates are respectable by most standards, especially considering the following:
- InstantJobs do not require bidding or sales efforts of any kind
- You could see the work before you accepted it
- Payment was guaranteed
- Payment was instant, no invoice required
These are all ProZ.com initiatives that most translators welcome, as you did in accepting the job.
Given your latest posting, I have to wonder if your primary intention is not to advance the industry, but rather to mislead readers of these forums. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO) (X)
Local time: 09:37
German to English
+ ...
| How did I get involved in this thread??? | Dec 15, 2001 |
Quote:
On 2001-12-15 20:31, MatsWiman wrote:
It\'s just my friendly advice to you.
Start something new with Werner Patels and Good Luck!
Henry, I must ask you to control and restrain your moderators. This kind of \"attack\" is against site etiquette and highly unprofessional. Mr. Wiman, from what I have seen in this thread, uses very personal and offensive language in his reply to Ca... See more Quote:
On 2001-12-15 20:31, MatsWiman wrote:
It\'s just my friendly advice to you.
Start something new with Werner Patels and Good Luck!
Henry, I must ask you to control and restrain your moderators. This kind of \"attack\" is against site etiquette and highly unprofessional. Mr. Wiman, from what I have seen in this thread, uses very personal and offensive language in his reply to Carole.
Not only was Mr. Wiman the moderator involved in one of the most recent \"KudoZ abuses\" (see thread \"KudoZ is not a free translation service\"), he has also conducted himself in a very unprofessional manner (eg, the language used in this thread, offensive private e-mails sent to me, etc.).
Allow me to quote from the ProZ job description for moderators:
Moderators are free to resign their positions at any time, for any reason. By the same token, ProZ.com reserves the right to replace moderators who do not contribute at a minimum level of productivity, or who exhibit behavior that is partial, or professionally inappropriate.
[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-12-15 21:35 ] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | InstantJobs can be declined, can't they? | Dec 15, 2001 |
Carole, why did you accept that InstantJob? It was clearly out of your field;if you needed three hours and two phone calls to review 300 words, it is clear that you should have never taken it, because you are not qualified to do it. Why didn\'t you refuse it right away?
A qualified translator (experienced in the field) could have done it in 15 minutes; rate is still low, but only for 15 minutes.
And we have all agreed that no professional translato should accept any job bey... See more Carole, why did you accept that InstantJob? It was clearly out of your field;if you needed three hours and two phone calls to review 300 words, it is clear that you should have never taken it, because you are not qualified to do it. Why didn\'t you refuse it right away?
A qualified translator (experienced in the field) could have done it in 15 minutes; rate is still low, but only for 15 minutes.
And we have all agreed that no professional translato should accept any job beyond their normal rates; why did you? Isn\'t it a contribution to that rate lowering everybody seems to be so furious about? Please, at least be coherent.
Anyway, I totally agree with Mats here; ProZ is a great idea, it works well and Henry is always open to suggestions. I\'m afraid you have missed some points over the last days.
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| Market Forces At Work | Dec 15, 2001 |
Market forces will have an impact on prices, like it or not, with or without ProZ. The ProZ site at least allows some insight into the market place. This last year has not been a labor-friendly year, I am sorry to say.
Like the majority of people I snicker at most of the \'economic theories\'. They seem to create nothing but difficult terminologies which are hard to translate.
The answer to unfriendly labor markets is to create new products or services and decrease... See more Market forces will have an impact on prices, like it or not, with or without ProZ. The ProZ site at least allows some insight into the market place. This last year has not been a labor-friendly year, I am sorry to say.
Like the majority of people I snicker at most of the \'economic theories\'. They seem to create nothing but difficult terminologies which are hard to translate.
The answer to unfriendly labor markets is to create new products or services and decrease dependencies. For translators that means offering specialized services or new ones.
Let\'s all get real. Why would anyone pay $200 when he could get the same service for $100? Do you? Only regulation could change that.
Here is my suggestion: Let\'s have a poll. Question: Are you for or against price regulation for providers of language services? What kind of regulation? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Good grief, what is this all about? | Dec 15, 2001 |
Quote:
On 2001-12-15 16:46, cm_quality wrote:
Henry, you wrote that I presented myself as someone with a deep insight in economics. Without going that far I\'d stay more to the ground: yes I have a PhD in Economic Engineering, yes my specialisation is how to achieve a given objective (high prices) and tackle the obstacles and hidden agendas in the environment where you conduct your strategy. But more interesting than my credentials
... See more Quote:
On 2001-12-15 16:46, cm_quality wrote:
Henry, you wrote that I presented myself as someone with a deep insight in economics. Without going that far I\'d stay more to the ground: yes I have a PhD in Economic Engineering, yes my specialisation is how to achieve a given objective (high prices) and tackle the obstacles and hidden agendas in the environment where you conduct your strategy. But more interesting than my credentials are the following facts: I\'ve worked over 10 years as adviser in strategy for governments in several countries, for high-tech start ups and for...one of the biggest pan-European syndicates regrouping all trade unions of a given profession that\'I ll just call X for all member countries in the EU. My job was to be responsible for promoting their interests in the context of a research study financed by their counterpart-regrouping all employers of this trade.
I must say I learned a lot from my bosses there. Thanks to them I can see what kind of damage proz is doing to the profession. But as I said I also can see how some of us can just quietly exit proz and mind our own business promoting ourselves instead of promoting proz.
...back to your comments: this is self.invented Henry Dotterer theory- with all respect- I have to be quite hard on this:
YOUR COMMENT #1: \"Actually, it is easy to answer. The answer is \'no.\' \" this is your answer when I ask agencies whether they will like to squeeze their profits and increase rates to translators\".
YOUR MISTAKE #1: Some will, have no doubt. I charge my clients, those I had before joining proz, 0.30 EURO as a minimum per word, and THEY PAY GLADLY, even telling \"how cheap\" they used to pay agencies much more. The trick is to go out and find clients while you\'re busy translating. That\'s where I thought my 120 USD of Platinum fee were well invested with you. If you maintain all agencies will say \"no\" (which they won\'t all do) I see your market assessment is biased and my 120 USD was not a good investment in terms of this objective: to get the same good clients I get on my own and who pay decent rates and who pay them promptly.
YOUR COMMENT # 2:\" You have presented yourself as someone with a deep understanding of economics. Surely you know, then, that the economic reason any agency would engage in QA, or use accredited translators, is to *increase* profits (even if the payment to the translator must rise.) This is a basic tenet of free-market economics.
YOUR MISTAKE #2: here you\'re simply saying something that is your own invention. I have no idea what you understand by \"market mechanism\", \"profits\" or \"economics\" but is is not related to how these concepts interact.
Any economic agent engaging in QA is doing it for one or a mix of various reasons:
- controlling bodies,
- possible santions to loose their license (infringements on business, corporate or professional ethics or of consumer legislation)and then have to close the shop,
-lawsuits resulting from product failure or inappropriate service that might result in exit from the market/exclusion from the profession
- need to expand volume and not profits for strategic reasons
- need to differentiate themselves from the competition: i.e. the Volkswagen group has the AUDI range for luxury and top quality to show it is not only in the VW good-quality-middle price competition sector
-need to present with a professional image that cultivates the achievements of the person/company/ profession: i.e. you\'ll never see the Harvard Business School sell manuscripts written by a schoolkid somewhere in Cyberworld who got an Economics dictionary for Christmas, even if the dictioanry is from Oxford Press.
- a wish (for instance by a small company) to focus on and live up to the expectancies of a high-end clientele in order to achieve more pleasant working conditions, more interesting jobs, more prestigious image, and to keep higher rates and ensure the bases for future activities.
As you can see, QA is attractive as a strategic tool, and not only to increase profits. Further, QA is attractive by its value to those who simply have the need to perform in a context of high ethics. SUch value is scientifically quantifiable and is the subject of many metrics used in marketing, in policy analysis of voter preferences etc... It is imply part of human nature to strive for improvement. It\'s a survival instinct in nature. But some us are taught by others who found out before them, that it\'s possible to get a free-ride and cheat. It\'s a strategy.Some survive on quality, some survive on cheating. what dictates our choices are our moral values.
All economists, psychologists, police, judges, lawyers and professional religious soulmenders and many other spiritual leaders and followers know that some people commit acts due to the value they attach to property, while select actions due to the value they attribute to following an ethical code of behaviour.
Sociology research shows that the need to follow and apply a high code of ethis is related to (years of) learning and to professionalism in terms of a socialisation process.
Surely, you understand why you can\'t place everybody in the same bag, they end up fighting and hating each other.
And I do feel as a paying member that I should tell you that the membership registration fee is quite high compared to other online services offering for instance online advice on subscription basis.
There are for instance in Europe numerous market places for translators and free-lancer offering services for free or for lesser fees. What did attract to me to proz was your marketing tactic of stating the number of translators registered. I thought this must be it.
And I joined very fast, without staying around and looking for more before paying.
Now I\'m in for the fun of dialoguing with other translators, but Henry, believe me, not for the jobs. They are posted at indecent rates and the indecency is to create a market for these low rates and to make all other translators registered here and reading these forums think that THIS is the market. If you truly believe the unfounded stuff you write about QA and profits, then I guess your market assesment (is not correct and) is leading proz towards the low quality-low price marketing strategy for translations.
Thats\'fine with me, I believe there is a (maybe vast) market for that. But I don\'t think you can allow yourself on behalf of ALL agencies in the worls to say this is the onlystrategy they have or might choose -IF THEY WERE GIVEN THE CHOICE.
It\'s not the only marketing strategy. There alwasy will be a market for high quality-high price, but then I believe my mistake was to thinm you can address this market through a tactic like proz, which basically is made for the masses, while the high quality-high price segment wants and offers personalised client-provider solutions.
But I thank you and proz for providing a fun platform to meet other translators. I do hope you are not reselling our information details, fax, phone,in database formats, because I yet have to see a privacy policy notice on your site, and it would be a breach of marketing ethics if you did.
Hi Carole,
I believe that everybody, new member or member of long standing, has the right to opinion and input.
It would help me, though, if you could state
A. What the general issue is, and
B. How you would like to see it fixed.
2 or 3 sentences each should suffice (forget about personal attacks). If you think that the very existence of the ProZ site is a problem, then you can hardly expect Henry Dotterer or ProZ members to agree with you. Or do you? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Maya Jurt
Switzerland
Local time: 15:37
French to German
+ ...
| SORRY CAROLE, FEE WAS HIGHER | Dec 15, 2001 |
For one reason or another, I have seen the source text, the translation and the revision, and it was not Carole who gave it to me. I think she will be rather puzzled if not mad hearing that copies of those jobs travel far.
Carole is mistaken. She got $5.97 not $5.95 for the job. Well, I guess the bank will charge her 6 bucks for cashing the check.
As far as I can judge (I have done the revision for fun) the text needed changes, because at least two passa... See more For one reason or another, I have seen the source text, the translation and the revision, and it was not Carole who gave it to me. I think she will be rather puzzled if not mad hearing that copies of those jobs travel far.
Carole is mistaken. She got $5.97 not $5.95 for the job. Well, I guess the bank will charge her 6 bucks for cashing the check.
As far as I can judge (I have done the revision for fun) the text needed changes, because at least two passages were misunderstood. I guess that Carole, for a first job at proZ, wanted to do extremely well. Therefore, she rewrote the text. Don\'t say it was not her field, anyone with a good understanding of language could have done so, despite the fact that it was a complicated text. But you need more that translation skills. You need to understand fully what the person wants to say. That was not easy, but Carole got it right.
Rewriting: this is exactly what a proofreader should not do. It makes everyone mad. The translator\'s feeling discredited, the client angry that he has to pay twice, the proofreader, trying to do his best and being disappointed. Good translators do not need proofreaders, and if they do, they organize this job themselves.
10 cents is not an acceptable rate, 3 cents for proofreading a complicated text is shameless exploitation. This is my own personal opinion. The market says otherwise.
I hope Carole has learned from this and will not accept jobs at those rates in the future.
Carole\'s contribution to this site have been useful and should have made some people think about the general outlook for the translation business. But who read all of what Carol wrote? I did. Who else???? People get annoyed and agree easily with the one who is attacked (the forum should be open to friendly attacks; after a good fight, you feel better).
Brief contributions have more chance to be read. Carole, be brief, control your anger, but stay on. Something good may come out of it.
Greetings to all
Maya
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| | | | Carole Muller
Denmark
Local time: 15:37
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | Clarifying confusion | Dec 15, 2001 |
Hey, hey getting way out of the Etiquette friends,
First Mats: I don\'t understand your point, because I certainly do not regard you as a \"point grabber\" (if you\'re one, I\'m one) and I do not remember ever saying anything personal about your way, preferences, qualifications whatever, so I do not understand why you start barking at me. However I have seen really weired things entered into the glossary and it\'s human too:
the selection is not based on a meritocr... See more Hey, hey getting way out of the Etiquette friends,
First Mats: I don\'t understand your point, because I certainly do not regard you as a \"point grabber\" (if you\'re one, I\'m one) and I do not remember ever saying anything personal about your way, preferences, qualifications whatever, so I do not understand why you start barking at me. However I have seen really weired things entered into the glossary and it\'s human too:
the selection is not based on a meritocracy whatever Henry claims, the selection is based on whatever the answerers came up with (I see myself as part of the entire group here too) and by whatever the Asker liked the most in THEIR CONTEXT (and surely they are not only entitled too but this is how Kudoz is \"sold\" to them) and then on whatever way the Asker typed the answer into the glossary (I have seen hilarious mistakes, and again you are all insecure guys reacting to this because I never thought or wrote that I could not myself do this kind of faulty entering, it\'s all happening in your minds). Then think again: maybe one out of three questions I see, are highly context dependent. Typically there is one source word in English and to this word, a range of 5-10, sometimes less sometimes more word correspond in (my language pair) French. The appropriate term in French is a function of the context (technically speaking, not of prferences of the asker etc..)
THINK: how do you possibly think this can work out to the benefit of those looking for the other 5,6,7 meanings of the word in a glossary using the desing of the one of the site?
Mats: I would certainly not be ashamed to say I could be labelled a point graber too. I think the Kudoz forum is really fun. It\'s fun to have the contact with the Asker (asking very diversified questions even within a given domain and certainly interesting to see what causes a problem to one translator is easy to another and vice-versa), it\'s fun to see the remarks and suggestions of others and it\'s fun when you get points. I also got really good friends this way, who are emailing me nice emails, and don-\'t worry , Noble Crusaders of The Faith, not about the site but about translation stuff.
Then Ursula :no idea what you are talking about with price regulation. It certainly is not feasible, so why do you bother about it?
And Patricia L.: I don\'t understand why also you, whom I never spoke to or know anything about, and I guess you know nothing about me, need to be personal. I did a job sent to me by Henry, because (1) I am qualified for it for a number of reasons Henry can be the judge of (I suppose this is why he wanted to try me out) and for a number of other reasons which are on my CV, but you don\'t know (did you ask me what qualifications I have in the domain of psychology/medical editing?) and (2) because I wanted to learn more about the way the site operates, how to become more integrated as a member in the system, etc... Afterall I do pay my Platinum fee and Mats, IT IS MY CHOICE, and you are not here invited by me to play here the role of skinheads \"Go Home, Yankee\". I really do not mind doing the Instant Job for $5.95 or even for free-it\'s the size of some of the sample text sent out by bidders. My opinion is that provided it is some kind of testing, then it is very decent to do it that way (paying the translator and the reviewer).
But it is NOT DECENT if it is an actual job and it is not decent of Henry to drag it into the debate of rates, because it is confidential business information between Henry and I, and Henry should KNOW BETTER.
I am sorry to be the sender of bad news, but in terms of rates for a \"real job\" with a \"real client\"it is undecent and you highly qualified translators can get more because I do and my partners working with me in translatiosn get better rates from me.
However I find it VERY difficult to BOTH translate and hunt clients for the next jobs in the same time, and I thought proz can be a nice way to add another marketing tool to my marketing policies.
Especially to Patricia: this is how I work: when I translate, I ALWAYS have a colleague read my stuff, whether into my mother tongue languages or not. When I translate highly scientific stuff I always make a team among my contacts to back up with the terminology.
I am a simultaneous interpreter and I have been used in legal courts for over 15 years as simultaneous interpreter. I am TRAINED FOR AND HAVE WORKED with this for such long time that I can read from a page in a source language and read it aloud in the target language and record on a tape recorder and have it typed out by a secretary. This way it is possible to work very fast, and MIND YOU PATRICIA, if you work for the National Security POlice and in court you\'re out of BUSINESS IMMEDIATELY AT THE SLIGHTEST MISTAKE which the person incriminated may claim as an \"interpreter\'s mistake\" a highlu used strategy for having an appeal on a case and much to the dislike of the legal system as it incurrs more costs on its functioning.
So before you start throwing dirt, mind your own doorstep, I don\'t have any shame telling you that I LIKE TO DELIVER A TRANSLATION THATS HAS BEEN REVIEWED BY OTHERS THAN ME.
However I dislike reviewing other translators work, one of the reasons why I decided after this first trial of the first Instant Job to never ever accept a correction job. Or only from my partners and having the opportunity to discuss things with them.
After all we are adults but the proz context is framing translators on a context which is school teacher like. As though a translation is one ting, which can be \"corrected \" by X.
Totally ridiculous way of working and the reason why I decline furtherInstant jobs organised this way, it\'s not even the rate bothering me here, I don\'t mind doing \" free work\" once in a while for a colleague to have the discussion about phrasing and wording. But without the discussion it\'s not enlightening and it\'s turning people into each other\'s competitors instead of being each other\'s coopetitors, the reality of now.
II have had my own writings translated into hhilarious text and I simply would never allow myself to regard myself as so faultless a translator as to being able to produce a text (which maybe will impact on a person\'s business, life, carrier, whatever) without having another opinion. Maybe all of you writing and especially Patricia have this opinion of yourself? But I believe none of us can claim to be this perfect.
But then, I have been working in teams all my life and with excellent people too-talented colleagues and bosses-who made mistakes, and knew that we all do, and asked for backup and support. So I\'m used to ask for backup and support when a CLIENT\'S BUSINESS IS INBETWEEN MY HANDS.
The best school, I believe, is when you have to translate for somebody whose future is at stake (in court) you know you must convey not only facts but also psychology, and as interpreter you donøt popo up in court with dictionnaries or Kudoz online help, so if you find me condescending know at least that in this context I think it\'s a question of knowing ehat are your values and business ethics.
My support is of the client and of the profession and you are right not of the site if I feel the site is not up too serving my purpose which is to deliver quality to the client and contribute to promote and not degrade the profession.
As much as I realize this might hurt somebody, and I am really sorry if sombody gets hurt, this is about business and not about \"Henry\" or \"Jack\" or \"Cathy\" (no offense Henry, just stating flatly that my opinion is about the site and the market and the profession and not about you as a person or site creator)it is minor to the fact that our aim should be to serve the client. Any meaning distortion in a technical translation (I know only of that) must be avoided at the expense of \"elegance\" if need be, but the meaning is essential. The client is paying the translation fee, and the client is paying the consequences of the quality or lack of quality delivered. Proz is not the client, we are the clients of Proz, but many of you seem to have grown into regarding Proz as the client.
Mats: I find you are simply being abusive: this thing \"go home\" is just out of the way. I am a paying member, right now I enjoy having the company of the MANY FRIENDS I GOT THROUGH the site and OF THE AGENCIES WRITING DIRECTLY TO ME AND AGREEING !!!!
So Mats, I paid for my membership, Henry has been so grand and fair as to offer to refund it, but I really think the site is great for many of its visions and options - forums, etc.... but lousy for its misunderstanding of what is the market mechanism, and I\'ll keep on thinking that whether you like it or not! And what does it hurt you, just to return your question to me the other day about points if I think that? If you disagree, so peace be with you, but why get so p.... off?
The market mechanism is: that I charge my clients what I want (some of them are clients dating back to 1984) BUT that I am too busy translating and reviewing my translations to go and hunt for new clients, so I am HAPPY to enter partnerships.
The market mechanism is also: that until recently 1 agency was enough to provide me with ALL the clients which I needed because I was only taking big, lengthy projects-besides my own direct clients who are smaller clients-and this agency took only 10 percent commission on whatever rate I felt like taking.
But this decent agency had to close, because they tried a new concept of online-advise into other domains than translation and lost a lot of money. Maybe they were too decent and took TOO LITTLE COMMISSION FEE, but I recently spoke to the director and he maintains this is not what killed them.
The market mechanism is also :that the EU is so fed up with translators making substantial mistakes in technical domains with regards to sense, that they are now hiring more and more professionals (lawyers, economists etc...) to translate texts.
I fail to see why you can\'t see the writing on the wall, but personally I don\'t care, I am now exiting this stupid discussion and going back to promote my business among my professional circles instead of on the proz pages and so be it and peace with you all... and also with you Mats because you\'re bound to still see me surfing on the forums and even asking questions: I forgot that, I placed a questions and had WONDERFULL people answer me!!!!
After all and back to business: the one interesting question is: how much volume did proz generate in terms of orders going through proz and what was the average rate.(again Henry a rethorical question it really is not my business and I do not want to know the answer, but it is the ultimate issue: is proz taking membership fees to be a forum for translators providing tools, help, contact, etc ,i.e. promoting professional contact between professionals or is proz in to help agencies find candidates for rush jobs at 2 cts/word, because proz has grown into the kind of size where it will not be able for a long time to go on being both)
If the rates Henry quotes are the average of proz (I take him on his word and trust him), then I get better rates on my own and I never bargain, so I wish you all a pleasant Christmas...
And Mats, do you know the Danish expression: \"hvem har tisset på din sukkermad?\"
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Carole Muller
Denmark
Local time: 15:37
English to French
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TOPIC STARTER | Hi Ursula, replying to you | Dec 15, 2001 |
I have only now seen your long posting:so I\'ll follow your suggestions:
1. Proz does not bother me personally. I feel on one hand that I lost time placing bids at jobs posted which I suspect do not exist ( I have my concrete evidence for thinking that, but it is my business only), on the other hand I am quite happy with the many, nice people I\'ve met. I have met more new friends than I have had critical voices chopping my head off online, so I am quite happy with people in... See more I have only now seen your long posting:so I\'ll follow your suggestions:
1. Proz does not bother me personally. I feel on one hand that I lost time placing bids at jobs posted which I suspect do not exist ( I have my concrete evidence for thinking that, but it is my business only), on the other hand I am quite happy with the many, nice people I\'ve met. I have met more new friends than I have had critical voices chopping my head off online, so I am quite happy with people in general.
2. Proz is- as a business model-something which I believe is doing harm to the profession -and again not to me personally. I have my other professional domain, so borderline I could say I really don\'t care about neither the profession nor proz.com.
I am maybe ridiculous in your eyes, but having worked -and loved the work- as the strategic adviser for a very large trade union regrouping all national member associations of the EU countries, my eyes were opened to things I did not see before(again to those reading and not knowing me I\'m also an economict) and related to economics and the market mechanism. Trade unions have very special insider knowledge. I benefitted. I wanted to make Henry, the site, the profession benefit so we ALL get good rates, hahaha what a joke, let me go and keep it to myself instead, it\'s more rewarding... and more pleasant too!
3. Henry gets personal, Mats gets pesonal, Patricia gets personal etc..I am sorry about that for all of you, but it is happening in your heads. But Henry will get over it when he sees the cash coming in, I do believe his site is great to us for the contacts, and rewarding and fun to him for other reasons.
4. In the long run proz is supporting a market for bad products. It will work for 3,4 years and then there will be a shift when a critical mass of clients (large accounts) find out it is better to select small agencies with personal contact to their translators. The Cyberfactory model will make damage and disappear when the damage has reached enough lients to impact om agencies, or it will re-emerge in an improved version.
5. This improved version will only emerge when those who see the problems are heard and an open discussion is carried out-No fears, no anger no personal attacks. Just find out whether the sun reveolves around the earts or is it the other way round.
6. Then, there is factor X, which I do not want to write about openly. It is something that happened to me personally through proz and has nothing to do with Henry. But it has to do with the site. And it is VERY SERIOUS and will one day happen to somebody else.
Don\'t be intrigued and I am not going to write about it. But it is serious and I am going to do something about it in other ways.
I am not going to write more, but the fact that this abuse is not being prevented by proz.com (and they know perfectly well that they are creating a platform for it) was what p... me off, for me and for your sake!
Now I wish everybody a Merry Christmas, I am not sure I\'ll have time to post more on this topic....
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| | | | | English composition 101 "Tricks of the Trade: and how not to follow them" | Dec 15, 2001 |
Carole,
You lost me on the second paragraph (and I don\'t have ADD). Whatever it is you\'re trying to say, say it concisely and succintly, girl!
Absolutely no need for all these periphrastic and prolix statements that will only bore, annoy and turn off.
I\'m sure you\'re a fabulous translator in Danish and with a degree in economics to boot, but here, honey, you were all over the place.
You seem to feel passionat... See more Carole,
You lost me on the second paragraph (and I don\'t have ADD). Whatever it is you\'re trying to say, say it concisely and succintly, girl!
Absolutely no need for all these periphrastic and prolix statements that will only bore, annoy and turn off.
I\'m sure you\'re a fabulous translator in Danish and with a degree in economics to boot, but here, honey, you were all over the place.
You seem to feel passionate about something in Proz. We\'d like to know what it is, but please don\'t give us a lecture. Can you say \'harangue\'?
Your comrade-in-arms but yawning from your unneeded verbosity,
Marcus
ps: I heard København is incredible these days... ▲ Collapse
| | | | ttagir
Local time: 16:37
Member (2002)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Let us stop and think, e.g., about the New Year :-) | Dec 16, 2001 |
Sorry, I am too old on this site and should state the typical picture: suppose that somebody constructed something; then somebody else arrives and starts to criticize either the whole construction, or color of doors, or size and quantity of windows... I think almost all who were with Henry from early proz days are still (and certainly will be) very proud of the knowledge that were and are being engaged in creation of the most interesting and most ample \"translator world\".
... See more Sorry, I am too old on this site and should state the typical picture: suppose that somebody constructed something; then somebody else arrives and starts to criticize either the whole construction, or color of doors, or size and quantity of windows... I think almost all who were with Henry from early proz days are still (and certainly will be) very proud of the knowledge that were and are being engaged in creation of the most interesting and most ample \"translator world\".
It will be my 3rd New Year with ProZ. Somebody will celebrate 2nd New Year as a ProZ member. Somebody else will do it for the fist time. I hope we all should congratulate each other with the coming event. And thamk Henry. Should we all hope that 2001 will turn to be the worst year of the new millenium ))?
ProZ.com... It is very democratic, since perhaps only the most idle novice refuses to give to moderators some sincere kicks, digs, and pokes (this usually occurs by 30th to 40th day of presence on the site . ProZ is really profitable since ... it grows. It has some difficulties since ... it continues to grow. ProZ MUST BE and (I see IS) profitable for proz (professionals).
I have some ideas which could help proz to pass over some, say qualitative transition points. I am sure Henry has no time to reply to everybody, even every moderator. Should we find some minutes in 2002 to exchange ideas? Pity, it seems like we all have too short time which were free to sit down and think.
Nevertheless, anything MUST have some basic points or a foundation. Logically, the foundation and basement of the whole proz world was Henry, is Henry, and (I do believe and hope) will be Henry. It is as 2*2 = 4)). Or as 3*3=9. Period.
Nobody limits anyone\'s freedom to join the site and to leave it. We all are absolutely different but almost same as concerns our freedom. We all are different but we should not be opposite.
I am very sorry of having no possibility to join properly InstantJobs - the unique attempt was simply ceased by problems with the Net (I got ProZ\' invitation to work via e-mail ... after completion of the job ). I saw errors of other partners of that finished game, but ... I did not find ANY way to delete these errors. A pessimistic situation, believe me.
However, I hope that some great things can be done in new ways indeed invented by Henry and by HIS (or, say 50% of him and 50% of all other members site. Example: 4 p.m. one Sunday afternoon (2-3 months ago) I placed my bid to a ProZ job offer. 10 minutes later I was found via phone by the agency posted the job. I got their source 7 p.m. (too poor fax; very important, critical, and specific text; French into English, some 7000 words in 15 A4 pages with a dark-grey and huge word PROJET covering some 20% of every page area. I was busy and started to work with the order only the midnight between Sunday and Monday. I had the clear source file Monday 7 a.m. and completely closed their order before 2 p.m. (same Monday).
I never thought this could be possible; but it turned to be REAL via ProZ. I am sure that \"at ProZ\'\" (as almost in any other place) everyone can invent her/his own ways to \"increase profits\". But, as usual and as ever, the result depends mainly on ... professional skills of the \"producer\".
So, please permit me to recall that we have some 15 days to finish our 2001. Let us hope to solve all problems. TOGETHER!
Yours, Tagir. ▲ Collapse
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