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Translators happy with very low rates?
Thread poster: Rob Grayson
Williamson
Williamson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:12
Flemish to English
+ ...
Backup activity Jan 19, 2008

Andrea Jarmuschewski wrote:

So, when I’ve been living for lots of years in an environment where my second language is spoken, and when I’ve been studying it thoroughly and utilizing it in work and educational situations for a long time, having become the person everyone at work (native speakers!) turns to when there is a question about correct spelling or a grammar and even writing style issue (in French!), when I’ve even passed the very selective French agrégation of German (where you need to not only translate from and into French but also write long papers in French) – then WHY should I not translate into French???

Andrea


Because there is this silly prejudice coming from mostly native speakers of English that non-natives are not at par with natives.
With regard to low rates : Yesterday , I got an offer yesterday for the translation of 70 pages of technical text. Trados required. I replied that I was not available until a certain date and gave the agency my rate: 12 (+) eurocents p.w. and NO discounts for Trados. I would be very surprised to hear from them again. I don't mind. I have second activity which pays more per day than translation at 0.01 or 0.08 eurocents p.w. If everybody turned down such silly rates, this would push the average rate upwards. For those who live in Western-Europe with its rising prices + 0.12 € should be the minimum to make a living like any other professional.



[Edited at 2008-01-19 12:04]


 
Marcelo Silveyra
Marcelo Silveyra
United States
Local time: 02:12
Member (2007)
German to English
+ ...
Well, actually... Jan 19, 2008

Williamson wrote:
Because there is this silly prejudice coming from mostly native speakers of English that non-natives are not at par with natives.


Perhaps it's not quite as silly as you think. A lot of non-natives who say they can translate into English just fine and go into rants against people who say one should only translate into their native language are actually not up to par - awkward sentence structures, strange-sounding uses of "of" instead of the possessive "'s," mixtures of British and American spelling/expressions (yes, it can actually make a big difference), mistakes in word usage that no native speaker would ever make, etc. account for quite a bit of the gap.
Now, mind you, this doesn't mean that no one can translate into their second language. Some people's brains are wired differently, some people grew up in true multilingual environments, etc. And the truth is that if their English is perfect and natural-sounding, I don't think anybody will really mind if they translate into it - even if it's not their native language. The problem is when it isn't perfect and natural-sounding. I mean, even in this thread, there is more than one person that translates into English and clearly lacks the appropriate skills for doing so (no, I'm not saying names). I don't doubt that these people honestly believe that their English is just like that of a native speaker, but there's a big difference between deluding oneself into thinking that one can translate into English perfectly (or with a few reasonable translation mistakes) and actually being able to do so. Trust me, native English speakers notice this. And end clients do too when they get those God-awful instruction manuals, employee handbooks, ads, etc. Just because the direct client or translation agency doesn't notice (and if they are from a non-English speaking country, well, how exactly are most of them going to know if the translation sounds native or not in the first place?) doesn't mean that the translation is OK.
It's not a silly prejudice. It may not apply to everyone, but it does to most non-native speakers. If you don't believe me, ask someone to start identifying non-native speakers who translate into English in the forums. You'd be surprised at how many get detected right away.

[Edited at 2008-01-19 12:13]


 
Ines Garcia Botana
Ines Garcia Botana  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:12
English to Spanish
+ ...
One dollar cent offer Jan 19, 2008

Yesterday I got an email about a job. As I need to work I took a look at it. At first, I thought my tiredness did not allow me to understand the rates properly. I read it again and again. At last I asked my husband if he understood the same I did. Are they offering us US 0.01 per source word? Nicely he answered me it was right. Not satisfied with that I asked a colleague of mine. He found it so absurd that he wrote to the outsourcer to confirm the US 0.01 per word. Needless to say, that was the ... See more
Yesterday I got an email about a job. As I need to work I took a look at it. At first, I thought my tiredness did not allow me to understand the rates properly. I read it again and again. At last I asked my husband if he understood the same I did. Are they offering us US 0.01 per source word? Nicely he answered me it was right. Not satisfied with that I asked a colleague of mine. He found it so absurd that he wrote to the outsourcer to confirm the US 0.01 per word. Needless to say, that was the offer. I got so tired that I quoted what I thought the rate should have been and I added the following:

I am writing to you as I think you might have made a mistake. I believe you made a typo when you wrote: 0.01USD (0,03ARG) per word. If you did not make a mistake, don't you think it is clear abuse to offer these insulting rates to top-notch translators?

Of course you have the right to make any offer you want. Translators and those who come across said offers have the right to decline the offer with arguments. I will let others know about this.. This is what many translators have been doing for a while: alerting colleagues when there are offers with rock bottom prices, way below the “market” rate, so that no one is caught by surprise. The translator community has been doing this for a while, passing the word when offers like yours hit the market and letting the new comers know that these offers are out of any market.


I imagine I will get no reply whatsoever.
It is so insulting that I got depressed.
And I wonder ... who is the one to blame for this kind of offer? We? The translators? Shameless outsourcers?

It' s been a long time since I haven't written in a forum at Proz.com, but this offer went beyond all my expectations. I studied for five long years at a University. I got my degree, I did advanced courses, I have been translating for many years... and have to put up with this insulting offer?

Inés


[Edited at 2008-01-19 13:46]
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:12
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Translators... Jan 19, 2008

lie about the rates they charge. We all know this...

 
Valery Kaminski
Valery Kaminski  Identity Verified
Belarus
Local time: 12:12
English to Russian
+ ...
Translating into native vs non-native language… Jan 19, 2008

Stating that translation MUST be performed into one’s native language only is like saying that all children MUST live in families with two caring and loving parents.

Professionals translating into their mother tongue – ideal!

But…

Life is life.
There are economic reasons
There are different quality requirements
There are texts that can be fully understood only by a native speaker – who should translate those?


 
Ralf Lemster
Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:12
English to German
+ ...
Waste of time Jan 19, 2008

Ines,

I imagine I will get no reply whatsoever.

Exactly.

It is so insulting that I got depressed.

Why? Just ignore it: your time and energy are better invested to look for attractive jobs and clients.

And I wonder ... who is the one to blame for this kind of offer? We? The translators? Shameless outsourcers?

Why do you feel the need to blame anyone? Just ignore what is plainly out of range, and politely (but firmly) decline what is just below your minimum level. There are different market segments - one key aspect is to target the right clients.

I studied for five long years at a University. I got my degree, I did advanced courses, I have been translating for many years... and have to put up with this insulting offer?

Of course not. But you chose not to ignore it.

Don't get me wrong: there's some value in discussing these issues (although it's fair to say there have been quite a few threads already), if only to get the attention of those who might be tempted to think they can survive on that basis. In a recent workshop I held at ESTRI in Lyon, I asked students to complete the ProZ.com rate calculator. They certainly did not exaggerate their target income - yet we came up with a price of approx. EUR 0.08. So much for five or six cents being "quite reasonable".

There's no magic wand or recipe, I'm afraid - but emotions are always bad for your business.

Best regards,
Ralf


 
harbasz
harbasz
Luxembourg
Local time: 10:12
English to Polish
+ ...
My 2 cents Jan 19, 2008

Hi Valery and All,

Valery Kaminski wrote:

There are texts that can be fully understood only by a native speaker – who should translate those?


This so true. This is one of the reasons I believe translating into your non-native language is not only justified, but sometimes also downright necessary. Take legal texts, for example - notwithstanding any shortcomings of style, I still think it is better to have an accurately, if sometimes crudely, translated contract that leaves no room for misinterpretation, than a naturally sounding one with smoothly flowing sentences, but missing the point because the translator did not understand the source text correctly - and who is better predisposed to understand a source text than the native speaker of the source language. I am speaking here from a Polish perspective and realise that my observations may not be valid for translators living in Western Europe. I think to support my point I could give several examples of KudoZ questions in PL>EN pair where answers given by native speakers of English who purported to be translating from Polish into English were amusing, to say the least, due to the lack of understanding of the source text problem, where the problem would be obvious to any expert speaker of Polish.

Don't get me wrong. I do believe that there are texts that should only be approached by native speakers of the target language, especially those which are meant for release to the general public, but there also texts which may be equally well handled by someone translating into their non-native language.

Another thing is that while there may be vast numbers of translators working between say English and German or French, English-speaking translators working from Polish into English are rather in short supply. Who is then supposed to do the work?

My 2 cents.

Best regards,
Greg

[Zmieniono 2008-01-19 15:25]

[Zmieniono 2008-01-19 15:25]

[Zmieniono 2008-01-19 15:38]


 
Alyona Douglas
Alyona Douglas  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:12
English to Russian
Disagree Jan 19, 2008

Valery Kaminski wrote:

There are texts that can be fully understood only by a native speaker – who should translate those?


So you want to say that you won't be able to translate some English texts into Russian properly because you won't be able to understand them fully? And that only a native English speaker should translate such texts into Russian??


 
Valery Kaminski
Valery Kaminski  Identity Verified
Belarus
Local time: 12:12
English to Russian
+ ...
There are texts and texts Jan 19, 2008

Alla Douglas wrote:

So you want to say that you won't be able to translate some English texts into Russian properly because you won't be able to understand them fully? And that only a native English speaker should translate such texts into Russian??


This is a kind of juggling with words.

There are two issues.

1) "you won't be able to translate some English texts into Russian properly because you won't be able to understand them fully?"

- I must confess there are zillions of RUSSIAN texts I won't be able to understand AT ALL.

2) "And that only a native English speaker should translate such texts into Russian?"

- So what exactly "such texts" are supposed to mean?


But I am sure that a Russian pro who faced a task of translating an SMS/e-mail exchange between some punks, full of freshly coined slang and spelling "masterpieces" would at least spend tons of time and burn his/her kudoz limit, while a local student majoring in Russian would do the same without effort.


 
Viktoria Gimbe
Viktoria Gimbe  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 05:12
English to French
+ ...
The blame Jan 19, 2008

Ralf Lemster wrote:
Why do you feel the need to blame anyone?


Of course, putting the blame on someone will not help in any way to fix the issue. But figuring out why things are this way and who the problem stems from can help to at least understand the situation and then people will be better equipped to do something about it instead of feeling depressed.


There's no magic wand or recipe, I'm afraid - but emotions are always bad for your business.


True that!


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 06:12
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
A simple test Jan 19, 2008

Marcelo Silveyra wrote:
I don't doubt that these people honestly believe that their English is just like that of a native speaker, but there's a big difference between deluding oneself into thinking that one can translate into English perfectly (or with a few reasonable translation mistakes) and actually being able to do so. Trust me, native English speakers notice this.


Definitely true, Marcelo.

As a sworn translator in Brazil (which means that the Brazilian government officially believes that I am able to translate and interpret both ways between English and Portuguese) I often get trade agreements, mostly written by US lawyers. I assume they read these thoroughly before having them signed, so their secretaries/typists should not be blamed. However I am amazed at the frequent writing flaws I find there. These lawyers have a much more direct liability to their clients than a translator, especially when the latter is working through an agency. These lawyers are licensed as such by their local bar association, therefore it's safe to assume them as being mostly native, and all having received sufficient education/training for their profession.

I dared to translate my own book into English. As a safety net, of course, I had it proofread by a native Canadian. No, not any John Doe, but an accomplished developer of didactic material for ESL courses. Most of our discussion points - not so many, though - were aimed at finding a better way to express an idea here or there. It was the kind of discussion I have with Brazilian proofreaders/translators whenever we work as a team translating into PT.

Nevertheless, a rather xenophobic literary critic felt her duty was to have no mercy for a foreigner having enough chutzpah to translate his book into her language. So, making a long story short, she clung to the negative association between the noun "blocks" with the verb "to block" (i.e. to obstruct), oblivious to the fact that the English language has "building blocks" as well. This rather feeble - not to say questionable - argument was the whole basis for her rather bigoted critique. This illustrates the typical native-only attitude, therefore not limited to translation agencies.

Hence a simple test for anyone honestly believing in their own ability to translate into a non-native language is to have their work once proofread by a competent native speaker, not only for spelling and grammar, but also in regard to style and vocabulary choice. This should provide adequate feedback for someone to decide to go for it or not.

Finally, there is a sidetracking issue often disregarded by native-demanding translation clients: the subject. They assume that a translator is able to provide a superior translation into their native language in any area of human knowledge. Quite frankly, as I don't understand most medical texts in my native laguage, I bluntly refuse to translate them from any other: I would have no idea on what I'd be writing. On the other hand, my specialty area - human resources management - as it exists in Brazil, is fraught with hard-to-translate Americanisms (e.g. empowerment, assertiveness, drivers, etc.) which are often more difficult to translate into my native Portuguese than it would be the other way around.


 
Rob Grayson
Rob Grayson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:12
French to English
TOPIC STARTER
It's not about prejudice, it's about fact Jan 19, 2008

Marcelo Silveyra wrote:

The problem is when it isn't perfect and natural-sounding. I mean, even in this thread, there is more than one person that translates into English and clearly lacks the appropriate skills for doing so (no, I'm not saying names). I don't doubt that these people honestly believe that their English is just like that of a native speaker, but there's a big difference between deluding oneself into thinking that one can translate into English perfectly (or with a few reasonable translation mistakes) and actually being able to do so. Trust me, native English speakers notice this. And end clients do too when they get those God-awful instruction manuals, employee handbooks, ads, etc. Just because the direct client or translation agency doesn't notice (and if they are from a non-English speaking country, well, how exactly are most of them going to know if the translation sounds native or not in the first place?) doesn't mean that the translation is OK.


How right you are, Marcelo.

Reading through today's comments, the word "prejudice" occurs yet again. Really, it's not an issue of prejudice. Translate into a non-native language if you want to - good luck to you if you can get paid for it. But the fact is (I said it before and no-one refuted it) that non-native speakers who can write in such a way that a native speaker cannot tell that they are non-native represent a tiny minority.


 
Ralf Lemster
Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 10:12
English to German
+ ...
Back to topic, please Jan 19, 2008

Good evening all,
Can we please get back on topic?
The 'native vs. non-native' issue may be relevant to the topic posted, but please do start a new topic (in the appropriate forum) if you would like to discuss this issue on its own merits.

Thanks!

Good night,
Ralf


 
Maria Ramon
Maria Ramon  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:12
Dutch to English
+ ...
Why only native speakers? Jan 20, 2008

All through my life I have translated at one point or another.

First, of course, in school, when we were learning English; we had to translate for practice.

Later in life, when I learned many more languages - I seem to have a gift for languages - I translated any one into any of the others, as the need arose.

Knowledge of the languages was a natural matter of fact for me, since my father spoke various languages, and even my mother, although she corrupted ev
... See more
All through my life I have translated at one point or another.

First, of course, in school, when we were learning English; we had to translate for practice.

Later in life, when I learned many more languages - I seem to have a gift for languages - I translated any one into any of the others, as the need arose.

Knowledge of the languages was a natural matter of fact for me, since my father spoke various languages, and even my mother, although she corrupted every language - she had absolutely no gift for languages -.

Working as I did on various continents and in several countries, as an export manager in most cases, made my work so much easier being able to communicate with my customers in their own language. At times, there would be a conference with several people who, mostly, only spoke their own native language, which naturally put me in the position of interpreter for the various languages, making communication possible for all present. Translating from one into another language was never a problem for me, and I actually always enjoyed it very much!

Only when I came to the USA did I become aware that it was not such a "normal" and "matter of fact" thing as I thought it was, and did I start working as a professional interpreter and translator, freelance.

I have been doing that for about 11 years now, mostly in Court.
I am about to start phone interpreting for an agency, because there is a great need for the English-Spanish and Spanish-English combinations; I do a lot of written translations too, and it doesn't matter to me which language into which, I just make sure it is an accurate and faithful translation, and I certify that.

I think that people who command more than one language should be allowed to translate the languages they are comfortable with, even if they are not their native languages.

It may happen that sometimes a person who translates non-native languages may do an even better job than the native speaker, because they may even have a more thorough knowledge of the language because they had to learn it in all its details.

Just my 2 cents.

Maria
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Maria Ramon
Maria Ramon  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:12
Dutch to English
+ ...
Getting back to rates...either low or high.... Jan 20, 2008

Ever since I started translating I found it hard to quote a per word rate.

I look at the work that needs translation and I find it easier to quote based on the length of the text, the kind of text, and the complexity of it.

Based on that criteria I like to give quotes per page, and my clients have liked that a whole lot better than the per word quotes.

I have standard quotes for birth, marriage, death certificates, no matter how much or how little is writte
... See more
Ever since I started translating I found it hard to quote a per word rate.

I look at the work that needs translation and I find it easier to quote based on the length of the text, the kind of text, and the complexity of it.

Based on that criteria I like to give quotes per page, and my clients have liked that a whole lot better than the per word quotes.

I have standard quotes for birth, marriage, death certificates, no matter how much or how little is written on them; they are very different from country to country.

I like to quote per page, depending, as I said, on the kind of text and its complexity.

Maria
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