| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Legal and illegal translators Thread poster: balticvip
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| If there is a will, there is a way | Feb 27, 2008 |
Dear Balticvip,
If there is a will, there is a way, I can suggest one possible solution.
You may pay by check and forget about it.
I am almost sure that you will be able to register the check according to the required procedures in your country.
On the other hand, I am almost sure that the translator will be able to cash the check though s/he will lose a significant amount as the bank commission.
[Edited at 2008-02-27 11:05]
| | | | | Holier than thou? | Feb 27, 2008 |
The scenario described by the agency doesn't sound implausible, and I think it is probably salutatory to remind ourselves that we are not such a scrupulous profession as we would like to think.
A number of clients (often one-off small jobs) over the years will tell me "oh don't bother with a bill" etc, but I don't go for it. Largely because I believe that it would be more expensive to have to run two sets of books than one! (So I am greedy after all and not at all saint-like!)
| | | | | Minor detail | Feb 27, 2008 |
Roman Bulkiewicz wrote:
whatever you "set" in your PO is nothing more than your wishes, and you have as much grounds to insist on wire transfer as your translator has to require cash payment.
Our Baltic friend did say that he received the invoice then set about making the transfer using the IBAN. It seems most likely to me that the translator supplied said bank account number on the invoice. The implication being, presumably, that the translator was happy to receive money in it. I think we can safely assume that the payment method was at least accepted by both sides, whether or not one party 'imposed' it on the other.
The other week there was a thread on proz which said - I paraphrase - how come we don't hear more from agencies on the forums?
I think the general attitude shown in this thread is indicative of why not. If I were an agency, I sure as hell wouldn't share my issues here.
| | | | Nicole Schnell 
United States
Local time: 01:02
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | I guess, this covers it | Feb 27, 2008 |
Alexander Onishko wrote:
If there is a will, there is a way
My personal little case study that I mentioned previously was based on a mistake by the customer. Everything was cleared within less than 24 hours. This was the one and only incident that ever occurred to me in about 7 years.
I am curious now, though. What kind of communication took place after the translators payment bounced? Has the translator been paid finally?
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 10:02
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
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| Difficult to tell legality | Feb 27, 2008 |
balticvip wrote:
I think that there should be both a way on ProZ where we can see translators who are legal (registered and able to issue a formal invoice, maintain their own taxes, etc) and illegal (unregistered and not officially able to issue an invoice, avoiding taxes, etc)...
First you'd have to make a list of countries where such requirements are in place. For example, here in ZA where I live, I can receive money for "services rendered" via wire or bank transfer, and I only need to be registered as a private tax payer.
Personally I think that the case you describe is either rare or easily avoidable. If such a payment bounced back, tell the translator to get registered, then send him what is left.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 10:02
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| The name on the cheque | Feb 27, 2008 |
Nicole Schnell wrote:
A similar thing happened to me a few years ago when a client ignored the letterhead of my invoice and made out the check to Nicole Schnell rather than my company.
For a while I used a double-barrel surname, shortly after I got married. But my bank and my tax registration was still in my "maiden" name, so I ran into problems. These days I write very clearly in the payment terms section of my invoices what must be written on the cheque.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 10:02
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| Don't ask the bank for advice | Feb 27, 2008 |
Monika Košťálová wrote:
I have asked the accounting, whether the business acount is necessary.
A bank will always advise you on the option that will make them the most money, so these types of questions should be asked of your accountant, not your bank.
For example, in my country it is perfectly legal to operate a business from a personal bank account (in fact, the law does not even recognise the difference between a 'personal' and a 'business' account -- those distinctions are made by the bank only). The business bank account does have a few perks (slightly easier access to loans), but the transaction fees are higher, for example.
| | | | | I think this is outrageous - but your solution is also extreme | Feb 27, 2008 |
First of all, let me tell you I had no idea there are translators who would force a client to break the law just so they can save on taxes. This is really outrageous and I am glad you told us about it. Once again, we can only confirm that not all those who are advertized as translators are actualy translators. It is a pity that there are lots of wolves on this site disguised as sheep. Thanks a bunch to them for making business that much more difficult for the serious, real translators. Really.... See more First of all, let me tell you I had no idea there are translators who would force a client to break the law just so they can save on taxes. This is really outrageous and I am glad you told us about it. Once again, we can only confirm that not all those who are advertized as translators are actualy translators. It is a pity that there are lots of wolves on this site disguised as sheep. Thanks a bunch to them for making business that much more difficult for the serious, real translators. Really.
That being said, I would have to disagree with your solution. First of all, in many countries, you don't have to be registered in any way to be legal. For example, in Canada, you can simply be an independent worker, not have a tax number, not charge tax and have only personal bank accounts. As long as you pay your taxes like everybody else, this is perfectly legal - and you can still deduct business expenses all the same, as well as receive wire transfers without a problem. Now, if we followed your reasoning, you would never again work with a translator in Canada, since most of them are independent workers and they would never be able to prove they are legal (unless you asked them for their income tax declaration, which I personally would flat out refuse to show anybody). Add to this that many countries function in a similar way, and you end up having considerably less chances of finding a translator to work with you.
Then, there is the issue of how much information translators are willing to disclose on this site. And this also applies to outsourcers, who disclose much less information than freelancers do, in general. The same way I can't get a guarantee that I will be paid, you can't get a guarantee that your translator is doing his taxes like he should. Not on this site. And I think it ought to stay that way. Someone earlier suggested using the WWA, for example. I disagree - the WWA is no guarantee of anything, and those who have no WWA comments are not necessarily people who cannot be trusted or who produce mediocre translations. And let's not forget that many translators prefer not to bother their best clients with requests to fill out a form on a website for them. So, the WWA is far from being a tool for this, and I personally think that I shouldn't have to go as far as displaying references in my profile in order to get work. Next thing you know, they will ask for your social security number (this has been happening lately, for real).
Your best bet is still a good attorney who will help you draw up contracts that will help you to stay on the legal side even when your translator doesn't. In the case you mention, for example, you can probably legally deduct the extra money you had to spend on this transaction from the amount you owe to the translator and can refuse any further payment pending a solution to the wire transfer issue on the translator's end. If the translator signed a contract with you wherein he accepts to be paid by wire transfer, the ball is in his court legally. ▲ Collapse
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| I was not referring to this particular case | Feb 27, 2008 |
Charlie Bavington wrote:
Our Baltic friend did say that he received the invoice then set about making the transfer using the IBAN. It seems most likely to me that the translator supplied said bank account number on the invoice. The implication being, presumably, that the translator was happy to receive money in it.
I was talking about this: "Some people want us just to send cash without an invoice or use money bookers even when it was clearly marked on the PO that we pay by Bank Transfer" -- and my point was that what is marked on the PO matters only as long as the PO has been part of the agreement. Sorry if I was not clear. I think, we all know that a PO is often issued, if ever, after the work has been started or even completed.
As far as the returned payment story goes - well, it is clear enough, isn't it? The agency has performed its duty at the moment the payment has reached the correct destination. It is the translator's responsibility to ensure things work on his side. Any problems -- at the translator's cost. On the other hand, I don't think the original poster said the translator disputed this. Did he?
One of my favourite ones was where a translator who agrees to bank transfers when accepting the job etc sends an invoice and on it mentions that the bank transfer should contain "Humanitarian Aid" rather than “Services or the PO number” as a reason for transfer.
I was once offered this option by a forthcoming client in... never mind. My reply was: "No, thanks... by the way, if you ever want to send me real humanitarian aid, let's pretend it's a business payment - this would make things easier for me".
Another client in... another country, who I had worked with for years, all of a sudden sends a "Honorarium" to my business account... I guess someone told them it would be appreciated... The bank wouldn't clear the transfer until I wrote a statement that it was NOT a honorarium.
| | | | Oleg Rudavin
Ukraine
Local time: 11:02
Member (2003)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
| A few thoughts and experiences to share | Feb 27, 2008 |
Nicole Schnell wrote: A similar thing happened to me a few years ago when a client ignored the letterhead of my invoice and made out the check to Nicole Schnell rather than my company.
My case was much worse. That was a couple of years ago. Though wire transfer was mutually agreed with the PM as the payment method, the accounting dept sent a check. Well, a nasty surprise because cashing a check in Ukraine is costly - $US 40-65. Still, the nastier surprise came a few weeks later when the check was returned unpaid (simply because the company's account was empty at that particular moment), and all banks involved charged me with EUR 125 for their operations!
Now, back to the issue:
balticvip wrote:there should be both a way on ProZ.com where we can see translators who are legal (registered and able to issue a formal invoice, maintain their own taxes, etc) and illegal (unregistered and not officially able to issue an invoice, avoiding taxes, etc)...
Why? Is it your problem? If all terms and conditions have been agreed in advance you don't have to care of the legality or illegality of a translator's business - you only have to follow the terms and conditions agreed upon.
balticvip wrote: ProZ.com is a place which protects translators (rightfully so…) from unscrupulous jobs, clients etc, yet there is very little to protect the agency from dodgy translators – no way to review them and share comments on translators who have false profiles, non deliverables, late deliverables, terrible quality and, in this case, are operating illegally within their country and want us to risk facing fines or paying extra so that they may continue doing so.
Again, there's a good solution to that: don't choose translators with doubtful credibility! Oh well, reliable translators are usually much more expensive, but that's a different issue.
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:the WWA is no guarantee of anything...
Absolutely right! The WWA, credentials, memberships, certifications, all medals and honorary awards are no guarantee. The only proof of the pudding is the eating - and probably not a single bite, but having that pudding regularly for a few months at least.
To avoid similar situations in the future, one should certainly set and agree on the terms before a job is commissioned - the point Roman emphasized.
| | | | | Worldwide local issues | Feb 27, 2008 |
Each country has - or doesn't have - its own local issues regarding money crossing its borders. Some countries simply don't mind money going in or out; others do.
In Brazil - where I live - government is concerned about making money laundering a privilege for corrupt politicians, of which we have plenty. It's not my opinion, just what I read on the newspaper every day. So the control is rather heavy, not on the receiver, but on the banks that process the transaction. They nee... See more Each country has - or doesn't have - its own local issues regarding money crossing its borders. Some countries simply don't mind money going in or out; others do.
In Brazil - where I live - government is concerned about making money laundering a privilege for corrupt politicians, of which we have plenty. It's not my opinion, just what I read on the newspaper every day. So the control is rather heavy, not on the receiver, but on the banks that process the transaction. They need evidence to show the authorities that everything was on the up-and-up.
I'm commenting on this about Brazil, because it might be similar in many other places around the world. Neither PayPal nor Moneybookers work directly here. However Ikobo, Xoom, Moneygram, and Western Union do. A foreign cheque takes 2 months to clear legally; 5 minutes to be "sold" on the black market (but it might eventually turn up as deposited to the account of any international racket you can think of). A wire transfer may involve considerable red tape: the bank will require copies of the PO or agreement, and of the invoice. Once it took me a week to get the money from an international wire transfer, allegedly because all these documents I gave them were in English!
I usually get my international payments at PayPal, then use Xoom to transfer them here. Recently, I did my first job for an all-5 WWA European agency, and it was taking ages for me to get paid. At last I found that they were doing their best to pay me, but they used to pay all their translators so far with Euro cheques and Moneybookers. So it took them more than two weeks to get their PayPal account enabled to send money from their bank account!
So I suggest that the payment method be agreed between agency and translator before the job is assigned, so that either or both of them get ready to pay/receive when it's done.
Some of these "modern" payment systems only allow money to be sent from one person to another, no companies involved. I think any translator could show up in person at an agency's office to get paid in cash, and sign a receipt. So, if this translator could fax/scan+e-mail a receipt to the agency, the PM could get this cash and use these systems to send the money. Of course this involves mutual trust, however accepting the job in the first place also did.
[Edited at 2008-02-27 23:37] ▲ Collapse
| | | | MariusV
Lithuania
Local time: 11:02
English to Lithuanian
+ ...
| I do not quite get it... | Feb 28, 2008 |
Does the bank of the recipient can "bounce back" the payment because the receiver is not "self-employed"? Is it really so? I hardly believe it is possible. I think that the only reason you cannot send the payment is when the account number/banking requisites are not correct - a) such an IBAN does not exist at all or account holder's name differs from IBAN. But, in this case, you won't simply be able to send the payment from your bank - the system will not "allow" you that as it will show an erro... See more Does the bank of the recipient can "bounce back" the payment because the receiver is not "self-employed"? Is it really so? I hardly believe it is possible. I think that the only reason you cannot send the payment is when the account number/banking requisites are not correct - a) such an IBAN does not exist at all or account holder's name differs from IBAN. But, in this case, you won't simply be able to send the payment from your bank - the system will not "allow" you that as it will show an error (i.e. nothing will bounce bank - it will simply be not sent).
The other thing - is it the problem of the agency as how and under what basis the free-lancer works - you get an invoice (date, number, and etc. what shall be contained in the invoice) and you pay upon the basis of this invoice (indicating invoice number in the transfer). That is it. To be sure you won't get into trouble because someone you pay is working illegally or not registered as needed (and you cannot know laws of dozens of countries and these laws may differ a lot), you can make a simple 2+2 contract (even simplier - a line in the PO if contracts can take too much time) stating that the amount you pay is the amount you pay, and all the taxes, etc. is the responsibility of the translator. Why should you bother about his/her taxes? How can you be responsible for his/her taxes and any other liabilities? You have paid for the work - you did what you obligated and that is the end of your "business". As long as you pay what was agreed, you wash your hands.
Finally, all shall be agreed and "checked" before the work begins and all those above conditions shall be included as conditions of the transaction. If you need papers, ask for papers, if you need something else - ask for something else. Clarify things BEFORE ordering the job, not clarify something out when it comes to payment and the translator asks to send money as charity or cash by airmail.
And, in my personal opinion, a training course for your accountant would not hurt - all those things is the "homework" of the accountant - the accountant shall know all those things.
[Edited at 2008-02-28 01:17] ▲ Collapse
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MariusV wrote:
Does the bank of the recipient can "bounce back" the payment because the receiver is not "self-employed"? Is it really so?
Yes, This is really so.
For example, here in Ukraine the regulations are such that the banks are not allowed to accept business payments to private accounts and the bank must return the payment in such case.
| | | | Oleg Rudavin
Ukraine
Local time: 11:02
Member (2003)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
| No exactly in these wrods, but | Feb 28, 2008 |
MariusV wrote: Does the bank of the recipient can "bounce back" the payment because the receiver is not "self-employed"? I hardly believe it is possible.
Absolutely. If I make a mistake and write the data of my private account in an invoice, and the payment comes, and the payment doc says "invoice # XXX", the bank must send it back, according to UA legislation. They won't even inform me about that payment (at least they might not). As the bank fees are pretty high, the compensation will be deducted from that amount, and the sender will get their amount minus whatever the bank(s) charged.
| | | | Zamira B.
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:02
Member (2006)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Another aspect to consider | Feb 28, 2008 |
balticvip wrote:
We receive the invoice and send the bank transfer electronically through BACS (IBAN) and we cover our bank charges obviously. The payment goes through, leaves our account, but then bounces back with a reason for return as "this person does not have the right to receive money as he/she is not registered as self employed or a legal entity."
It may be so that it would be hard to withdraw the money from a business account due to regulatory restrictions.
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