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Off topic: Haydn's Bull...
Thread poster: Juliana Starkman

Juliana Starkman  Identity Verified
Israel
Local time: 05:09
Spanish to English
+ ...
Jul 11, 2007

I am at the tail end of a translation which I regularly do each week, with updates on musical performances. I suddenly found myself stuck at a mis-typed or badly written sentence which reads:
"El programa que se interpreta es Célebre minuteto "El Toro" (J. Haydn)."

I apologize ahead of time if this is not the correct forum to bring this up, but it didn't seem like a Kudoz question, since translation and/or nuance are not the issues here.

After searching through my own musical memory, numerous online searches, and even a call to a very classically attuned cousin, I am hoping someone here can help me figure out what this "Toro" is.
Anyone familiar with this piece which has been mauled by a journalist?


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Jenny Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:09
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
The Bear? Jul 11, 2007

Juliana Starkman wrote:

I am at the tail end of a translation which I regularly do each week, with updates on musical performances. I suddenly found myself stuck at a mis-typed or badly written sentence which reads:
"El programa que se interpreta es Célebre minuteto "El Toro" (J. Haydn)."

I apologize ahead of time if this is not the correct forum to bring this up, but it didn't seem like a Kudoz question, since translation and/or nuance are not the issues here.

After searching through my own musical memory, numerous online searches, and even a call to a very classically attuned cousin, I am hoping someone here can help me figure out what this "Toro" is.
Anyone familiar with this piece which has been mauled by a journalist?


Hullo Julia,
I've just searched my Oxford Dictionary of Music - the entry for Haydn is, of course, massive, but I can't find any composition nicknamed "The Bull" - the best I could come up with was "The Bear" - Haydn's symphony Nº 82 in C. Could that be what your journalist meant?
There are many compositions not listed with any nickname. Perhaps one of them is known as "The Bull"? How mysterious!
Kind regards,
Jenny.


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Juliana Starkman  Identity Verified
Israel
Local time: 05:09
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Hi Jenny Jul 11, 2007

Your zoological query is one I thought of (I also checked my Oxford-love it), as well as something called the Ox Minuet, which seems even a bit closer, but lord only knows. This is the same writer who wrote about the "Wolfswagon Polo", instead of Volkswagen, which is, I believe, a fairly well known brand!

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Aleksandra Kwasnik  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:09
Polish to German
+ ...
Part of "The Creation" ? Jul 12, 2007

Hi Juliana,

I'm wondering if this ist not a part of Haydn's "The Creation" (Die Schöpfung), because I found this:
Haydn Die Schöpfung / Stier (The Creation / Bull)
http://www.vdkc.de/konzerte/konz1998.htm

Part II of "The Creation" describes the creation of "sea creatures, birds, animals" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Creation).

It might also be the "Taurus" meaning a sign of the zodiac represented by the Bull. I searched the German websites, but unfortunately did not find any piece with this title...

Or maybe a "Torero"?

Aleksandra


[Edited at 2007-07-12 07:02]


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Jalapeno
Local time: 11:09
English to German
... Jul 12, 2007

@Aleksandra:

I believe that "Stier" in your link is the name of the conductor.

If you look at the list of concerts, you'll see that the conductor's name appears right after the title of the piece performed in the concert. For example, Mr. or Ms. Stier also conducted Bach's Weihnachtsoratorium.

I believe that the author is in fact referring to "The Ox Minuet" that Juliana has dug up. This would also be supported by "minuteto", which I assume is Spanish for "minuet".


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Vittorina Klingbeil  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 11:09
Italian to English
+ ...
It exists ... Jul 12, 2007

Hi Juliana,

It's either the "Minuet of the Ox" or the "Ox Minuet" but it's Haydn's.

See here: http://library.thinkquest.org/15413/history/history-cla-comp.htm

and here: http://www.sibeliusmusic.com/cgi-bin/search.pl?com=advancedsearch&ComposerName="J.%20Haydn"&Arranger="J.%20Haydn"&or=1

Regards,
Vittorina


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Angela Dickson  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:09
French to English
+ ...
any indication as to who played it? Jul 12, 2007

hi Juliana,

good luck with this one! Is there any sign in your text as to who played this piece? There is a record of a 19th century 'singspiel' containing bastardised extracts from Haydn, which contained the 'Ox Minuet' - which Haydn never wrote.

According to this site:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/sm2html/sm2great4.html
(search for 'haydn')

there was a piano piece arranged from this Ox Minuet at some point in the 19th century.

I wouldn't have thought it was an excerpt from the 'Creation' as it's not an easy piece to draw excerpts from - though if your text mentions a choir and orchestra, that must be it!


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Aleksandra Kwasnik  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:09
Polish to German
+ ...
Right! Jul 12, 2007

Jalapeno wrote:

@Aleksandra:

I believe that "Stier" in your link is the name of the conductor.



You are right - stupid me & sorry Juliana - this is definitely the wrong trace.

Good luck anyway!
A.

[Edited at 2007-07-12 08:56]


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Jenny Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 10:09
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
Sounds like "The Ox" to me Jul 12, 2007

Juliana Starkman wrote:

Your zoological query is one I thought of (I also checked my Oxford-love it), as well as something called the Ox Minuet, which seems even a bit closer, but lord only knows. This is the same writer who wrote about the "Wolfswagon Polo", instead of Volkswagen, which is, I believe, a fairly well known brand!


Hullo Juliana,
I think "The Ox" must be meant, especially as it's apparently a minuet. Better conveyed in Spanish as "El Buey", perhaps? But you're translating Spanish into English anyway.
Kind regards,
Jenny.


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Celia Recarey  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:09
English to Spanish
+ ...
Ox Minuet/Minueto del buey Jul 12, 2007

Hi!

Here is what I've found:

"Ox Minuet

A singspiel by Seyfried, produced in Vienna in 1823, with music arranged from compositions by Haydn. It was based on two earlier French works, Le Menuet de bœuf, ou Une Leçon de Haydn (1805) and Haydn, ou le Menuet du bœuf (1812). The title is sometimes mistakenly thought to be the nickname of one of Haydn's minuets." http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Ox%20Minuet

"(Ochsenmenuette). A piece misattributed to FRANZ JOSEPH HAYDN, but actually composed by Ignaz Seyfried as part of his light opera of the same name in 1823.

In an unsubstantiated anecdote, Haydn composed a minuet for his favorite butcher. The butcher asked its name, and Haydn humorously replied, "Ox Minuet." The butcher sent him an ox as a token of gratitude.

While the tune of the minuet was by Seyfried, the rest of the opera was arranged from various authentic tunes by Haydn. Fortunately for Haydn, he was long dead when The Ox Minuet was produced."
http://arts.enotes.com/music-encyclopedia/ox-minuet

Apparently, the correct title of the piece in Spanish is "Minueto del buey" (not "minuteto"): http://www.partituras.com/descripcion.asp?Ref=17219

Good luck


[Editado a las 2007-07-12 09:29]


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Juliana Starkman  Identity Verified
Israel
Local time: 05:09
Spanish to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks everyone! Jul 12, 2007

I did eventually put the Ox Minuet, and cursed the writer's name, and his parents for not teaching him the difference between an ox and a bull...
Don't you love those jobs where you sit and mutter "I could have written this SO much better..."?


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Clarisa Moraña  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 07:09
Member (2002)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Wrong Spanish translation Jul 12, 2007

The proper translation in Spanish is "Minuetto del buey" (Or "El minueto del nuey)



See: www.rtve.es/es?go=eacaa4148f48af89730076a6669df2169fcb5b71e1aa29daef0893b759a47dc213a8e88650789a005456c54

Or

FretsOnly.com - THE Internet Resource for Guitarists :: Publishers ...33 - 4' (Chopin), 'Mazuruca de los Paraguas' (Chueca), 'La Mort d'Ase', 'Romanza' (Grieg), 'Minuetto', 'Minuetto del Buey' (Haydn), 'Sicilianas' (Mascagni), ...

Kind regards

Clarisa Moraña


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Giuseppina Gatta, MA (Hons)
Member (2005)
English to Italian
+ ...
Yes, it's the Ox Jul 13, 2007

I used to play it on my piano when I was a child, in Italian it was: Minuetto del bue.

So it is definitely an ox


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