| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Poll: Would it be good for ProZ.com to attract more potential direct clients asking for translators? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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Fabio Descalzi 
Uruguay
Local time: 02:53
Member (2004)
German to Spanish
+ ...
| Come on, let's achieve it! | Oct 23, 2006 |
avantix wrote:
If you would technically be able to direct end clients to an "end clients profile" and agencies to an "agencies profile" ... then it might be ok.
Bravo, avantix! You have stated the right point in just a few words!
Let's struggle on that direction then!
I'm not entirely sure HOW we should do it.
The importan thing is to know that... we SHOULD do it!!!
| | | | Magda Dziadosz
Poland
Local time: 07:53
Member (2004)
English to Polish
+ ...
| I wouldn't underestimate google... | Oct 23, 2006 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
I just wanted to add that by looking at your profile, specifically in the visitors section, you will see that most visits to your profile are internal (they come from users of the site) and there are not many Google references. It only goes to show (to those who say that direct clients eventually will find their way to ProZ).
I just checked Visitors Tab in my profile:
42 visits today out of which 26 from google. More then 50%. And search keywords were various combinations of "translator, Polish, English" etc. Of course I have no way of knowing if they were agencies, potential direct clients, competitors or bored kids, but the fact is that more then 50% of my profile visitors came searching for "English-Polish translator" and they are not ProZ.com members.
If there are ways to encourage those visitors to actually contact me and turn them into my customers - I'm all for it.
Magda
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 07:53
Spanish to English
+ ...
| tough cookie | Oct 24, 2006 |
but basically a business issue, not full-on language related. "members Only". IMO calls for excision, deconstruction, offshoots, satellites...
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| Yes, but be careful | Oct 24, 2006 |
Direct clients usually don't know what they want.
(This could be used to discern them from agencies )
avantix wrote:
If you would technically be able to direct end clients to an "end clients profile" and agencies to an "agencies profile" (which I doubt) then it might be ok.
Exactly.
The current bidding process for experienced outsourcers is supposed to be binding (and there are good reasons for this) but the same process for direct clients should be unbinding, because we would have to check the texts before we could give a reasonable quote, since the actual effort can depend on so many things which only a professional can estimate.
The direct client's page for posting a job should be very simple and offer a short but comprising explanation why a translator has to view a text before he can offer a serious quote, and that he usually has to charge a direct client higher than an agency, because direct clients need a "full service", which is otherwise (theoretically) supposed to be performed by the agencies.
Harry
| | | | | You can't satisfy all the people all the time | Oct 24, 2006 |
Looking at the above, I'm voting definitely not!
I work for agencies most of the time, and OK, their rate per word is not high. On the other hand, they do the leg work of finding end clients, picking jobs that suit me and sending the ones I'd be hopeless at to colleagues who actually like them. I get paid on the dot, and if their are problems then the PMs back me up and help. One of these found me through Proz.com... in fact my first client from the site!
The rates they pay ar... See more Looking at the above, I'm voting definitely not!
I work for agencies most of the time, and OK, their rate per word is not high. On the other hand, they do the leg work of finding end clients, picking jobs that suit me and sending the ones I'd be hopeless at to colleagues who actually like them. I get paid on the dot, and if their are problems then the PMs back me up and help. One of these found me through Proz.com... in fact my first client from the site!
The rates they pay are for direct translation. Part of the reason for taking higher rates from direct clients is that you have to find them, negotiate with them, and solve all the problems that arise along the way. Invoicing takes longer than sending a monthly list of jobs done to the agency... The risk is higher and there is far more 'fudge time' when you are not translating.
If you land a good regular client, then these expenses are minimised, so the translator earns more and the client benefits from improved reliability and quality. Good translators have to invest in new dictionaries, computers, software... If they get paid well, they certainly deserve it
But Proz is about finding first-time clients, and I for one am not interested in many of the direct clients who find me through Proz - they often want a big job done cheaply and by yesterday... or in a subject area I know nothing about.
There are other sites that attract direct clients in different ways - not many, but good ones, and good clients have found me through one of them.
Proz is getting quite complicated, and the dual-profile idea might just result in twice as many empty profiles to scare clients off instead.
Just my two penn'orth...
▲ Collapse
| | | | NMR (X)
France
Local time: 07:53
French to Dutch
+ ...
| The question is... | Oct 24, 2006 |
Would it be good for proz to attract more direct clients.... (not: would it be good for us)
I voted Other, because I really don't bother.
| | | | | Would it be good for ProZ.com to attract more potential direct clients asking for translators?" | Oct 24, 2006 |
But proz.com does not attract clients, we do!!
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Fabio Descalzi
Uruguay
Local time: 02:53
Member (2004)
German to Spanish
+ ...
| Yeah! Style matters a lot when it comes about "identifying WHO IS ASKING FOR the service" | Oct 24, 2006 |
Harry Bornemann wrote: Direct clients usually don't know what they want. (This could be used to discern them from agencies ) The current bidding process for experienced outsourcers is supposed to be binding (and there are good reasons for this) but the same process for direct clients should be unbinding, because we would have to check the texts before we could give a reasonable quote, since the actual effort can depend on so many things which only a professional can estimate. The direct client's page for posting a job should be very simple and offer a short but comprising explanation why a translator has to view a text before he can offer a serious quote...
Indeed!
If you visit any other translation portal you will find thousands of projects asked by direct clients.
At least 30% of them are asking in an extremely simple way, sort of "I need my book translated for next month", whereas an agency will ask sort of "Publication of 100,000 words which needs to be translated and proofread in a relatively short period of time".
| | | | Fabio Descalzi
Uruguay
Local time: 02:53
Member (2004)
German to Spanish
+ ...
| We are ProZ after all! | Oct 24, 2006 |
David Brown wrote:
But proz.com does not attract clients, we do!!
ProZ.com is a community.
The site staff may have excellent, good, bad,... ideas - but the results are always a consequence of OUR OWN DEEDS - our collective deeds. Be it that we "cooperate and collaborate", or be it the "simple sum of individual activities of 130,000 ProZians".
Right now we are debatting several technical issues which have to do with "EXPANDING THE BUSINESS". Which business, and whose business? "Each one's" and "ours", of course!
| | | | Özden Arıkan
Germany
Local time: 07:53
Member
English to Turkish
+ ...
| Yes, but be careful | Oct 24, 2006 |
is my choice. I agree with those who have reservations on this, mainly because direct clients are by default ignorant of what translation involves. I would prefer leaving the client education aspects of this job to agencies. What are they for, otherwise?
So far, I have never had a direct client over the Internet. But I receive a lot of requests. The last one was trying to have his software localized for the Turkish ... See more is my choice. I agree with those who have reservations on this, mainly because direct clients are by default ignorant of what translation involves. I would prefer leaving the client education aspects of this job to agencies. What are they for, otherwise?
So far, I have never had a direct client over the Internet. But I receive a lot of requests. The last one was trying to have his software localized for the Turkish market and I could almost see his eyes bulging over my quote. When I told him that it included independent proofreading, and yet was lower than what he would get from an agency, he claimed that he found *agencies* (note that it's plural) who would do it for US$0.08 per source. I don't know where he found them, but why would I lose my time trying to tell him that he wouldn't be able to sell that software to anyone in the Turkish market. There's already too much distraction in our job, right?
I also believe that risks involving payment might be higher with these clients. And not because we may not rate them on BB. We already do it, in fact. I have seen BB records for many companies that are not translation agencies. But would they have anything to lose with a poor BB record?
Still, I must admit that the greatest risk is our colleagues who would be charging -and delivering- the same way as they do with agencies. I take the "be careful" part as rather related to this...
[Edited at 2006-10-24 10:58] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Already direct clients via my profile | Oct 24, 2006 |
I do not understand why should customers see your prices anyway?
About the visitors of our profile.
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
I just wanted to add that by looking at your profile, specifically in the visitors section, you will see that most visits to your profile are internal (they come from users of the site)
This is not true in my case. On the contrary. I already met direct clients via my profile. Most of my visitors are external. For example 2 of my 11 visitors today:
9:38 am Came from: google.ch
[search: translate german to Dutch]
Google Ranking of my profile no. 2
6:45 am
Came from: google.de
[search: übersetzer holland]
Google Ranking of my profile no. 4
If you do your homework regarding internet boosting some direct clients will find you via your Proz-profile.
Regards
Steffi
[Edited at 2006-10-24 10:57]
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Ruxi
German to Romanian
+ ...
| Different understandings of the subject? | Oct 24, 2006 |
I think we do not understand the title/subject of the poll all in the same way.
I don't think it was asked about John Smith the direct client of
translator Jack White, but about direct clients in the sense of companies, editors, institutions aso.
Yes, I would like to see many direct clients on Proz, including on discussion fora. I would like to see more editors of literature here aso.
I don't think it is a reason for translators of being affraid to lose clients:
1.... See more I think we do not understand the title/subject of the poll all in the same way.
I don't think it was asked about John Smith the direct client of
translator Jack White, but about direct clients in the sense of companies, editors, institutions aso.
Yes, I would like to see many direct clients on Proz, including on discussion fora. I would like to see more editors of literature here aso.
I don't think it is a reason for translators of being affraid to lose clients:
1. There are contracts probably, to be obeyed
2. There are good relationships already, based on a good cooperation
But there would be great chances for other translators too to get jobs, especially for those on more rare languages.
If there are possibilities to make the difference between a company or an institution and a translation agency?
A way would be to google and inform about it. Besides companies and institutins have a different kind of names.
E.g Coca Cola, Institute for X, Office for Y, Editor Blue Book aso while translations agencies have names like transX or verb..., or languageY aso.
So my answer to the question: yes, it would be good. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Rebecca Garber
Local time: 01:53
Member (2005)
German to English
+ ...
| direct clients: local vs internet | Oct 24, 2006 |
I am listed on a university translators and tutors list, so I get direct clients who are local: I do have to explain that I need to see a text before I will take a job or give an estimate; that translation takes more time than simply reading the document; that the estimate may be low or high; that formatting is part of the cost; that I will provide a translator's letter of accuracy but not a certification, etc, etc.
Most of these people have never needed a translator's services, and if I ... See more I am listed on a university translators and tutors list, so I get direct clients who are local: I do have to explain that I need to see a text before I will take a job or give an estimate; that translation takes more time than simply reading the document; that the estimate may be low or high; that formatting is part of the cost; that I will provide a translator's letter of accuracy but not a certification, etc, etc.
Most of these people have never needed a translator's services, and if I behave professionally and lead them through the process, then they react with professional appreciation. They don't try to negotiate for minimum rates, or demand faster service; they are usually in a bind, and they are asking a professional, me, to get them out of it. They also tend to pay on delivery, and occassionally in advance.
Some direct clients on the internet, however, tend to be vague, want it done yesterday, want it done cheaply, etc. Others are as polite and professional as my local clients. Those I work for. The former I don't. But then, I don't work for agencies that try to get me to work for half-price, either. ▲ Collapse
| | | | NGK
United States
Local time: 00:53
| Pies Come in Different Sizes | Oct 24, 2006 |
avantix wrote:
Many of us have their rates published on their Proz page. Those will become visible to end users, making it a lot more difficult, if not impossible, to become paid at "normal end user rates".
But even when everyone would remove their published rates - how could we see who is an end user and who is an agency?
Well, first of all there's no requirement that you publish your rates, thus prejudging any kind of customized quoting or negotiation.
Second, there seems to be a new feature on the profile builder that allows you to enter a range of prices rather than one single word rate.
Third: It's obviously everybody's privilege to pursue their own pricing policy. But I have to say that I don't quite understand the logic of "A translation costs a set amount X; therefore, if an agency is involved, X will be split between the agency and the freelance translator, but if the freelance translator acquires the job directly, s/he gets to keep all of X." This logic implies that the agency provides absolutely no value to the end customer; the only value it provides is to the freelancer, which is why the agency gets a big piece of the freelancer's pie.
I like to believe that a good language company can serve end clients in a variety of ways that an individual freelancer can't. Whenever an agency adds value to the translation process (and that "value" can be as specific as coordinating a large project and picking just the right translators, or as vague as making the end client comfortable that their money is well spent), that added value justifies a higher price.
Conversely, if and when an agency is really nothing but a no-frills reseller, the end client may well be wasting money by purchasing an overpriced service from that agency, as opposed to going straight to a freelancer. In this case, providing potential clients with an easier way to find freelance translators, thus cutting out unproductive middlemen, could create a win-win solution for both freelancers and clients.
As an individual translator, I want to know how much time, effort and expertise will be required by the client in general and for the job in particular (and that includes the translation itself as well as all other related activities, from interacting with the client to invoicing). For me, that's the main determinant of the price — not who the client is.
(I will concede that it is generally easier for freelancers to market themselves to agencies than to end clients. Considering that, it may make sense for a freelancer to charge end clients a bit more because it's harder to acquire them. However, when it comes to ProZ, all you really have to do is create a profile, which isn’t that much work. Getting direct clients through this site takes no more work than getting agency clients and doesn't per se justify different rates.)
[Edited at 2006-10-24 15:57]
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