| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Poll: "Traduttore traditore" do you agree? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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neilmac
Spain
Local time: 16:22
Spanish to English
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| Tell it to rocky | Apr 16, 2007 |
Apart from the play on words, and my total agreement with vic-d and pirateshoulderbird, (don't shoot the messenger), my answer has to be a resounding "never" or however it is in latin/italian (no capitals)...
I swear
great question
[Edited at 2007-04-16 22:45]
| | | | Andy Watkinson 
Spain
Local time: 16:22
Member
Catalan to English
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Firstly, I can only second Henry’s statement.
Henry: “I have no problem with the Italian even though it is not one of my languages; it is such a familiar saying that it should be known by all translators.”
---o---
I confess to knowing little about any language other than the pair I happen to work in. English/Spanish.
This does not prevent me from understanding the meaning of “Eppur, si muove…”, “Cogito ergo sum”, “carte blanch... See more Firstly, I can only second Henry’s statement.
Henry: “I have no problem with the Italian even though it is not one of my languages; it is such a familiar saying that it should be known by all translators.”
---o---
I confess to knowing little about any language other than the pair I happen to work in. English/Spanish.
This does not prevent me from understanding the meaning of “Eppur, si muove…”, “Cogito ergo sum”, “carte blanche”, “Schadenfreude”, “le mot juste”…etc.
None of the preceding expressions, except the last (and perhaps, the penultimate, for the evil-minded amongst us) has anything to do with translating. But I, perhaps mistakenly, thought we were all translators here.
Victor, there is no need to “re-translate” the question, anymore than it is necessary to translate “fiat lux” for a theologian, of any nationality I dare say.
Secondly, I find the exclamations of horror at the idea of our being “traditore” somewhat naïve, to say the least. These protestations of innocence spring from a failure to understand the meaning behind the expression.
It's not an opinion or an insult, for those of you who obviously feel insulted. It’s simply a statement of inevitable fact.
Granted that, on occasions, we’ve all probably completed a text and thought we’d not only produced a fine translation, but actually improved on the feeble efforts of that less-than-gifted author, a writer of the kind that writes like he breathes…”so, I, think I’ll, use a, comma”.
Or those who believe a sentence is simply placing more than three words in a row…..
But, “traditore”…….. of course we are...the only translator that isn’t a “traditore” is a photocopier.
Andy ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Thank God... | Apr 17, 2007 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
I have no problem with the Italian even though it is not one of my languages; it is such a familiar saying that it should be known by all translators.
That said, it depends...
It depends on how good the translator is.
... I'm not the only one who had never heard the saying before and didn't know what it means. Otherwise I would have had to bow my head in shame.
| | | | | I also have to admit.... | Apr 17, 2007 |
....that I had never heard the saying before - even though Italian is usually my source language - perhaps because I do more technical translations than literary ones.
That said, I agree that it depends on many factors - including how good or "bad" the translator is.
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Robert Mouris
Hungary
Local time: 16:22
Member (2007)
French to German
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| Depends on the field | Apr 17, 2007 |
Katharine Prucha wrote:
That said, I agree that it depends on many factors - including how good or "bad" the translator is.
I have heard this saying over and over again. I understand that it's not referring to the skills of some translators, but that a correct translation is impossible per se. Puns of course cannot be translated. I'm convinced that poetry is untranslatable, and I will never attempt to do it. Commercial and political slogans are also tricky. It's better to invent new slogans.
My worst translation experience ever was for an election campaign. The politician won the election, so I'm probably the only one who is disappointed with my translation.
I voted "It depends" and will stick to fields where I feel at ease and where I'm not forced to be a traitor. Which does not mean that I will never be a traitor...
| | | | | I must be stupid | Apr 17, 2007 |
cos I dont speak that language.
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Because I interpret the saying as meaning that the translator is a traitor *intentionally* - and I don't believe any of us would want to be called that.
Having said that, I can sympathise with many of the comments above, although their validity obviously depends on the context - an accurate translation of a chemical test procedure is quite obviously not a betrayal if someone following the procedure in English follows exactly the same steps as someone using the Italian version.
... See more Because I interpret the saying as meaning that the translator is a traitor *intentionally* - and I don't believe any of us would want to be called that.
Having said that, I can sympathise with many of the comments above, although their validity obviously depends on the context - an accurate translation of a chemical test procedure is quite obviously not a betrayal if someone following the procedure in English follows exactly the same steps as someone using the Italian version.
But even in literature, if the translation manages to convey the feeling and storyline of the original, how can you call it a betrayal? If you really think that, it's completely pointless ever translating or reading a translation of any book ever written. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | The good old primacy of Western culture :-) | Apr 17, 2007 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
I have no problem with the Italian even though it is not one of my languages; it is such a familiar saying that it should be known by all translators.
That said, it depends...
It depends on how good the translator is.
Well, Henry, yes ... somehow you're right. The saying IS familiar and should be known by American translators as well as European ones like myself. But is someone who e.g. translates from Turkish to Farsi a "traitor" (in your sense) if he or she is not so up to date with the pearls of Western European wisdom?
I don't think so.
Besides, yes, there a good and bad translators around ... at Proz.com and elsewhere ... but their qualities, their upsides and downsides shouldn't be based on their knowledge or ignorance of old - and also somehow banal - sayings.
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| Otmar, I think you've possibly misread what Henry said ... | Apr 17, 2007 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
I have no problem with the Italian even though it is not one of my languages; it is such a familiar saying that it should be known by all translators.
That said, it depends...
It depends on how good the translator is.
I may be wrong, but I think the part from "That said, it depends ....." refers to Henry's answer to the poll question and not his generalisation of what translators should know.
That said, it could have been drafted better to make that crystal clear. It's easy for someone to read this the way you did
At any rate, what "should be known by all translators" is hardly a judgment call for one translator to make about another, irrespective of geography (and particularly one who happens to be and is known as a very good translator, despite his lack of Italian or knowledge of this particular saying!)
[Edited at 2007-04-17 11:34]
| | | | John Cutler
Spain
Local time: 16:22
Spanish to English
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| A corollary question | Apr 17, 2007 |
This poll has served a quite different purpose than I thought it would. I don’t speak a word of Italian, but this Italian proverb is THE classic, definitive statement on translations and translators. There are 85,000 Google hits in many different languages about it.
From observing the number of votes (about half as many as other questions) and the number of answerers who have admitted they didn’t know what the question meant, I get the impression that many translators are (no, ... See more This poll has served a quite different purpose than I thought it would. I don’t speak a word of Italian, but this Italian proverb is THE classic, definitive statement on translations and translators. There are 85,000 Google hits in many different languages about it.
From observing the number of votes (about half as many as other questions) and the number of answerers who have admitted they didn’t know what the question meant, I get the impression that many translators are (no, not stupid) but definitely under-read or under-informed about translation theory, practice, history, etc.
Anyone who has formally studied translation will have heard this saying many times; anyone who has not should probably know it from having read articles, books, etc. on their own.
Perhaps a corollary question would be, “How much do you study to keep up to date as a translator?” ▲ Collapse
| | | | | more about unfaithfulness in translating - la belle infidèle | Apr 17, 2007 |
should a translation be fluent and unfaithful, although deliberately so, as Marie- Helene, or the other way round? Possibly one should have the best of both worlds, but I would like to stress that good translations are also compared to "belles infidéles"
Nicolas Perrot d'Ablancourt - Wikipédia[1] Aussi, selon Voltaire, Perrot d'Ablancourt est-il un « traducteur élégant et dont on appela chaque traduction la belle infidèle. [2] » ...
fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Perrot_... See more should a translation be fluent and unfaithful, although deliberately so, as Marie- Helene, or the other way round? Possibly one should have the best of both worlds, but I would like to stress that good translations are also compared to "belles infidéles"
Nicolas Perrot d'Ablancourt - Wikipédia[1] Aussi, selon Voltaire, Perrot d'Ablancourt est-il un « traducteur élégant et dont on appela chaque traduction la belle infidèle. [2] » ...
fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Perrot_d'Ablancourt - 20k - Copia cache - Pagine simili
and my Latin teacher in high school always said "ad sententiam non ad verbum" (try to render the meaning of the whole sentence and do not translate literally) when she tried to explain how Latin (or Greek) should be translated. That was when translating started to be fun...
raffaella ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Verbal minefields | Apr 17, 2007 |
Lawyer-Linguist wrote: Henry Hinds wrote:
I have no problem with the Italian even though it is not one of my languages; it is such a familiar saying that it should be known by all translators.
That said, it depends...
It depends on how good the translator is. I may be wrong, but I think the part from "That said, it depends ....." refers to Henry's answer to the poll question and not his generalisation of what translators should know. That said, it could have been drafted better to make that crystal clear. It's easy for someone to read this the way you did
Hmm, yes ... thanks for the comment ... you MAY BE RIGHT but you also may be wrong. Indeed, it could have been drafted better to make the point crystal clear. But was this really Henry's intention? I'm not so sure.
Anyway, it's a highly intricate matter ... or rather a minefield ... this translation business.
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| You'll note I said I may be wrong ..... | Apr 17, 2007 |
Otmar Lichtenwörther wrote: Hmm, yes ... thanks for the comment ... you MAY BE RIGHT but you also may be wrong. Indeed, it could have been drafted better to make the point crystal clear. But was this really Henry's intention? I'm not so sure. Anyway, it's a highly intricate matter ... or rather a minefield ... this translation business.
... but was actually just trying to give him the benefit of the doubt
So come on Henry, put this matter to rest, what exactly did you mean ?
| | | | | Light or Silence | Apr 17, 2007 |
Lawyer-Linguist wrote: Otmar Lichtenwörther wrote: Hmm, yes ... thanks for the comment ... you MAY BE RIGHT but you also may be wrong. Indeed, it could have been drafted better to make the point crystal clear. But was this really Henry's intention? I'm not so sure. Anyway, it's a highly intricate matter ... or rather a minefield ... this translation business. ... but was actually just trying to give him the benefit of the doubt So come on Henry, put this matter to rest, what exactly did you mean ?
Of course, I noticed that you wrote "I may be wrong"... And Henry, throw light on it ... or remain silent (and a philosopher)!
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... how some polls are taken off (far) quicker than others.
To silence or be silenced, that is the question
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