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Poll: What would you suggest charging for repeats / 100% matches?
Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
ProZ.com Staff
Local time: 03:49
SITE STAFF
Jul 13, 2007

This forum topic is for the discussion of the poll question "What would you suggest charging for repeats / 100% matches?".

This poll was originally submitted by Vito Smolej

View the poll here

A forum topic will appear each time a new poll is run. For more information, see: http://proz.com/topic/33629


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Simon Sobrero  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:49
Italian to English
+ ...
Do you mean repetition within the text or over time? Jul 13, 2007

If phrases are repeated in the text, I would be willing to negotiate.
If the text matches my old translation memories, even those obtained through working for the same client, I then consider this to be my own work/intellectual property/tool management and would not be willing to provide a discount.

Managing memories properly is laborious and difficult and should be remunerated!


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Tomás Cano Binder, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:49
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
We may suggest.... Jul 13, 2007

...but the customer might not like our suggestion...

Is this about how much we usually charge, or about how much we WOULD LIKE to charge?


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ViktoriaG  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 06:49
English to French
+ ...
No way, José! Jul 13, 2007

I said no way, but my approach is slightly different.

When I deal with clients who want a Trados pricing scheme, I tell them they can have 100% matches/repetitions free, but the rest is paid at the regular rate, no matter the match percentage. If they don't like that, just too bad.

I am willing to not charge for 100% matches/repetitions, since I don't really work on them. However, sometimes I actually do because in French, not only people have genders but pretty much everything else also, so in some cases, a segment can be translated in two different ways depending on context, which means that even though the segment is considered to be a repetition, it isn't really. Still, repetitions and 100% matches don't really slow me down - but I have seen countless examples of 92% fuzzy matches that had to be rewritten completely, and that is why I refuse to give rebates on fuzzy matches.

In a nutshell, I am not open to Trados pricing schemes, but if the client really wants one, I offer free 100% matches/repetitions, nothing more, ever. Of course, if I really had to offer rebates on fuzzy matches, then no way José for 100% matches and repetitions free. I would then ask to be paid about 30% of the full rate for those.

If the client's not happy with my offer, they can go find somebody else - there are plenty of fish in the sea!

[Edited at 2007-07-13 17:00]


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Marie-Hélène Hayles  Identity Verified
Local time: 12:49
Italian to English
+ ...
Other Jul 13, 2007

If the client doesn't ask, the client doesn't get.

If the client does ask, and it's within-text repetition, then I don't generally like to accept less than 25%, although I have done on occasion. I think 25% is fair - it does take physical time to process repetitions/100% matches, so it's only fair that we should be paid for it.

For text-to-text repetition, I generally charge full price, unless the files are all in the same job. The only exception is my most important client, who's never ever asked for a discount but who gets one sometimes anyway.


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Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 12:49
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
Time flies like an arrow .... Jul 13, 2007

once ... and here's four repeats

Time flies like an arrow
Time flies like an arrow
Time flies like an arrow
Time flies like an arrow

How much would it cost to translate this? Charge just the last two as repeats? Miss the whole point and do 1 + 4 (that's definitely the best liked and best paid alternative)?

Partly this is a dodging trick aka avoidance behavior, partly, however, it describes the issue I wanted to address.

I wrote today to an agent, who has a differing opinion on the above subject (it's actually the company's policy, that is evidently enforced for any language between Albanian and Zagamundian - full speed ahead and damn torpedoes), that I would not mind at all if they just pretranslated the texts so we would have no quarrel.

Regards

Vito


[Edited at 2007-07-13 18:33]


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Aurora Humarán  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 07:49
English to Spanish
+ ...
No way Jose Jul 13, 2007

Vito Smolej wrote:

once ... and here's four repeats

Time flies like an arrow
Time flies like an arrow
Time flies like an arrow
Time flies like an arrow

How much would it cost to translate this?


Vito



Hey Vito!
I don't think this is a good example (at least not a good one to prove our [translators'] point).

Suppose you have 100% matches spread all over a long document (as is many times the case), the 100% match is not obvious at all... for example, when the document is clean, do you 'skip' the 100% matches? No! How could you? They have no mark once the doc is clean! So you devote time to revising (and probably when you have the 100% in Trados you also do. I have realized I devote a couple of seconds to double check that). In a long translation, the document takes longer to move ahead, then you need to print (time), read everything a couple of times and bla bla bla... I remember a couple of times when the 100% matches made no sense within the final document. The macro thing needed a couple of adjustments. All the above are instances I want to be paid for.

No way Jose. No discount at all.

Au

[Edited at 2007-07-13 18:44]


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Anne Patteet  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:49
English to French
+ ...
No way José Jul 13, 2007

I don't even answer such job offers when they go "give your best rate and discounts for matches" or something similar.
And when a potential client asks for it, I say I don't work that way and if it's over, it's over. I don't bother.


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Philippe Etienne  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 12:49
Member
English to French
11-25% Jul 13, 2007

I am ok with that (actually it is 25%) when agencies require me to use a CAT tool and discounted rates.
Colleagues have raised good points, but for me, as long as my hourly/daily productivity, therefore money, increases with a CAT tool and such discounts, I don't mind.
Investment and learning are diluted in the massive amount of texts (3-4 Mwords?) I have translated using CAT tools.
Enjoy your weekend,
Philippe


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xxxJon O  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:49
Dutch to English
+ ...
Time flies like an arrow... Jul 13, 2007

Fruit flies like a banana.

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Uldis Liepkalns  Identity Verified
Latvia
Local time: 13:49
Member (2003)
English to Latvian
+ ...
Though: Jul 13, 2007

"We have found that when translating from English, German, French and like into Baltic languages, due to complex grammatical structures of our languages, most fuzzy matches included in these discount rates take just as long to check and correct as if we were to translate the segments from scratch, because things would have to be translated differently in every context, grammatical forms of words and the sentence structures change dramatically, etc. (E.g., Latvian and Lithuanian has 7 cases, Estonian- 14, plus many other language specific grammar rules."

This is an extract from my fairly long template for replies to requests for Trados discounts- from which I copy out the parts relevant for discussion with each respective client- as I'm far too lazy to write it all anew for hundredths time.

In reality we about always agree to Trados discounts, but only to the ones advertised by Trados themselves before being acquired by SDL:

Match................Payment
0-74 %...............100 %
75-99 %...............66 %
100 % & repetitions...33 %

And since Trados/SDL itself has any removed reference to the text breakdown to matches and fuzzies.

But not to agree to any discounts at all at most cases would simply mean to loose business. And there are cases when these discounts are fully justified- say, two car manuals, one sedan, the other hatchback. 200 pages each, 90% repetitions...

Uldis


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Narasimhan Raghavan  Identity Verified
Local time: 16:19
English to Tamil
+ ...
No way José Jul 14, 2007

It is really heartbreaking that the client is worried about our finding the text easy or otherwise. Come on client, that is not your job. You gave me text to translate, I translate it and you pay me for it. That is all.

That there are repetitions is not due to me. Ask the original author. As far as I am concerned, I don't have Trados nor do I intend taking one. For me translation is an exciting activity and I do not want any such crutches.

Even if I were to go in for Trados, I might do it solely for improving my work with consistent vocabulary and all that and definitely for allowing the client to rob me.

By the way, I would like answer to one question. Is Trados or any CAT tool for that matter useful when printed text is given? Or when scanned PDF is being translated by opening fresh Word page and typing everything?

Regards,
N.Raghavan

[Edited at 2007-07-14 01:24]


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Tadej Kokalj  Identity Verified
Slovenia
Local time: 12:49
English to Slovenian
+ ...
No for Slovenian Jul 14, 2007

There is no way, that in (at least) Slovenian repetitiones should be free.

2 bottles of beer
3 bottles of beer
4 bottles of beer
5 bottles of beer
6 bottles of beer

Well translation goes like this:

2 steklenici piva
3 steklenice piva
4 steklenice piva
5 steklenic piva
6 steklenic piva

There is no CAT intelligent enough to deal with different forms for different number (+ gender + ....). MT would help, however I am yet to see working and enough reliable MT for language spoken by 2 million.


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Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 12:49
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
Think again... Jul 14, 2007

I don't think this is a good example (at least not a good one to prove our [translators'] point).

The sentence can be translated / understood at least the following (three and possibly more) completely different ways:
o Time flies like an arrow - like fruit files like a banana (quote Groucho Marx)
o Time flies like an arrow - a la an old Japanese proverb meaning time IS like an arrow
o Time "flies like an arrow" - like how many seconds it takes you to type it

etc etc - a computer (Harvard natural language parser) had five suggestions for the meaning of this one and the same sentence.

From my (Slovenian) point of view I can just commend Tadejs excellent example - but I would assume our dual for instance, which we are so proud of (additional to everybodys singular and plural) would just cause a raised brow or two and end on some Trivial Pursuit cards. The "Time flies like an arrow" sentence, even if used and misused so often, seemed a better bet.

So back to your mail, Aurora - if you think again, it may not be such a bad example for the pitfalls involved in the issue after all.

Regards


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Vito Smolej
Germany
Local time: 12:49
Member (2004)
English to Slovenian
+ ...
CAT tools and printed material Jul 14, 2007

By the way, I would like answer to one question. Is Trados or any CAT tool for that matter useful when printed text is given? Or when scanned PDF is being translated by opening fresh Word page and typing everything?

CAT tools have nothing to do with Optical Character Recognition (OCR) job, thats necessary to convert a printed document into a machine-readable file - its the same thing as the printer, if you could reverse time.

I use Abby FinePrinter plus The microsoft (being everywhere) has it also in the form of a "Microsoft Office Document Image Writer". The results are satisfactory (if you dont forget switching to the correct target language;) but it still involves work and usually the format is gone. So I charge for my time in these cases.

Regards

Vito

PS: For the ProZ staff - this is one more sticky subject

[Edited at 2007-07-14 14:13]


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