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Can we have a site abuse forum?
Thread poster: Andrea Bullrich

Andrea Bullrich  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:29
Member
English to Spanish
Jan 15, 2002

Hi everybody.



I woke up today to see somebody had posted a peculiar reply to a pretty simple English>Spanish question (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/132804). The answer was beyond wrong... it was not even close to proper Spanish.



I checked the answerer\'s profile and no working languages were specified, but he/she had KudoZ in a few pairs. When I checked these, all the questions had been squashed by a moderator due to site abuse. All the KudoZ were awarded today.



Henry, can you remove this profile? (I also think if abusers find some way of staying on the site, KudoZ awarded for questions found to be site abuse should be taken away, but I guess that will take further discussion.) Also, could we have a separate site abuse forum? And if it isn\'t asking too much, could it be visible, perhaps under the \"cooperative\" forum? With the new forums there (language-specific forums, localization) \"Suggestions\", where we\'ve been discussing site abuse, has become nearly invisible (and this is why I\'m posting this here).



Thanks,



Andrea


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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 15:29
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
Squashed Questions & KudoZ Points Jan 15, 2002

[quote]

On 2002-01-15 12:30, AIM wrote:

Hi everybody.



I woke up today to see somebody had posted a peculiar reply to a pretty simple English>Spanish question (http://www.proz.com/kudoz/132804). The answer was beyond wrong... it was not even close to proper Spanish.



I checked the answerer\'s profile and no working languages were specified, but he/she had KudoZ in a few pairs. When I checked these, all the questions had been squashed by a moderator due to site abuse. All the KudoZ were awarded today.



Hi Andrea,



I know exactly, whom you are talking about!!! This person posted several questions in the EN>IT pair as well, most questions were squashed, but I didn\'t squash a couple, just because other colleagues had already proposed an answer...



I hope the points this person \"earned\" will be cancelled from her/his profile.



I squash repeated questions and questions for terms you can find in our glossaries, but I have noticed there\'s a language pair where very easy questions and repetitions are accepted any time with three, four people answering (okay, I can understand once a year there\'s someone asking about the translation of \"Merry Christmas\" early in Dezember, but I do believe this questions should have been squashed when repeated in January).



I don\'t know if there\'s a real need for an extra forum, as you can report any \"abuse\" by clicking on \"Support Requests\" (Proz\' Main Page) and the choose \"Abuse/Misuse of site\" in the drop-down menu \"Please Select\".





Cheers,



Giuliana


[addsig]


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Andrea Bullrich  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:29
Member
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER
"Support Requests" is not enough Jan 15, 2002

Hi, Giuliana.



As I see it, the problem with Support Requests is that only Henry/Jason get to see those. I really think we should do something to increase awareness of this problem. In this specific case, it is somebody giving nonsense answers. But there are many other forms of abuse, and the solution for most lies not in Henry but in all of us. One example is when we need to refrain from answering abusers\' questions (see the \"Abuse of the KudoZ system\" thread under \"Suggestions\"). A site abuse forum would also help establish what constitutes site abuse and what doesn\'t: I have been accused myself of answering a \"site abuser\", but the person who questioned those of us who answered that question posted the thread in the Spanish forum, so the issue remained limited to Spanish speakers. In that case it was clear to me that there was no site abuse, but many people wondered what the guidelines for identifying site abuse were, and a new forum would help us all (and Henry) identify abuse and agree on common action.



Cheers,

Andrea


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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 15:29
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
I agree Jan 15, 2002

Hi Andrea,



I understand your point: I think you are right, we need to discuss openly about this problem.



Cheers,



Giuliana
[addsig]


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Giuseppina Vecchia  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 15:29
Member (2012)
English to Italian
+ ...
yes, stop it Jan 15, 2002

I quite agree with Andrea\'s request for a specific forum: I feel that we often have people just thinking this is some sort of an on line free dictionary, which it isn\'t. And also there are a few other issues which could bear discussing.

Cheers,

Josie


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Bertha S. Deffenbaugh  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:29
English to Spanish
+ ...
Reply to Giuliana Jan 15, 2002

QUOTE



\"but I have noticed there\'s a language pair where very easy questions and repetitions are accepted any time with three, four people answering (okay, I can understand once a year there\'s someone asking about the translation of \"Merry Christmas\" early in Dezember,...\"



END OF QUOTE



Sadly this is true. Just write the word \"hello\" and you will see how many times it has been answered. And, as you put it, peers pop up and agree.



Can somebody really think the asker needs to know how to translate \"hello\"?

I have seen angry responses to askers who posted simple questions, but none to those askers requesting for a translation of \"hello\". Go figure!



Regards,



BSD


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Andrea Bullrich  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:29
Member
English to Spanish
TOPIC STARTER
Can we? Please? Jan 16, 2002

Hi, it\'s me again.



A ProZ member with an empty profile (Sibila) has just posted 17 highly technical (but some downright dumb) questions in Eng>Sp in the last 15 minutes. I answered one before realizing what was happening, then a second one telling her my opinion on her practice. This pattern is very similar to the questions that led to the \"Abuse of the KudoZ system\" thread I mentioned in my earlier post (the asker was Salto). I wonder if Sibila won the telecom job that was posted early today, and we\'re doing it for free...



Now, I\'ve squashed Salto\'s questions when they had no answers, but others thought I should squash them even when they had been answered. What do you all think?



Thanks,



Andrea


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laurab
Mexico
Local time: 08:29
English to Italian
+ ...
I agree with Andrea Jan 16, 2002

Hi everyone. I\'m new to the site but have noticed that many people who consult it take advantage of colleague\'s wish to help and learn more. If someone, like Sibila today (to whom I answered a couple of questions before realizing she was posting the whole translation!) sends too many questions that are easily found on dictionaries (like I did myself), can\'t she /he be banned? It\'s like they can\'t be bothered to search for terms, I don\'t think it\'s fair. Unluckily, you realize it when it\'s too late. I don\'t know, I don\'t want to sound negative or crabby, I just feel a little let down by people like these. Thank you, bye all.

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Patricia Lutteral  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 11:29
English to Spanish
+ ...
No, it's not the telecom job Jan 16, 2002

Andrea, it is worse.

At least, the telecom job you mention was EN>ES.

This Sibila person is dealing with an ES>EN job; in other words, not only is she going into a non-native language, but also in a field she obviously has no idea whatsoever.

No specific knowledge, no expertise in the field, no effort to solve problems; only a strong determination to take advantage of the situation.

I\'m afraid she\'s an undercover Argentine politician

Please, do not answer her questions.

Regards,



Patricia
[addsig]


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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 09:29
German to English
+ ...
Sibila, Salto, Squash Jan 16, 2002

Sibila has been around for some time (at least 6 months or so), and someone once told me that Sibila and Salto might be the same person. Should be easy for Henry to trace (IP!!).



Yes, by all means: squash all such questions, even if they have been answered. Our \"peers\" (including some moderators) who so gladly and blithely jump in with both feet and bend over backwards to get some lousy points for questions that they fully know are bogus deserve nothing else. So, yes, squash them and get them off the record (otherwise, our \"peers\" will automatically get 4 points after 2 weeks or so).


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Eivind Lilleskjaeret  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:29
Member (2004)
English to Norwegian
+ ...
Don't get overexcited! Jan 16, 2002

Dear all,


After Andrea\'s very reasonable message, I think this is turning into a bit of a witch hunt. As far as I can see, Andrea is talking about one person having two user names and using one to post questions and the other to answer them and scoop in a few KudoZ.
Squashing questions that combined form continuous text is another matter -- it\'s fine by me, only in some cases posting consecutive questions can be seen as a gesture of fairness compared to questions with a long paragraph in the context field which the asker apparently would like us to translate. Which I never do, but often I end up with no KudoZ for my troubles because somebody with more time on their hands decides to render the whole lot.


As for terms/words that can be readily found in dictionaries/glossaries -- are we to exclude all \"simple\" questions in a wholesale fashion, bending over to Werner George\'s very vividly put and less than well considered point of view? I don\'t think so. They should be redirected, if necessary to the Easy section. But I for one aren\'t going to tell an 11-year German lad old who\'s writing an essay about Norway to go buy a dictionary before he dares post KudoZ-questions to their lingual highnesses the proZ. And the reason why peers grade these answers? They know the asker is very unlikely to award points, so it\'s a gesture of solidarity.


Rules and guidelines are necessary, but what it really comes down to is if you let yourself be taken advantage of on this site, don\'t blame everyone else.


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Patricia Lutteral  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 11:29
English to Spanish
+ ...
telecom text Jan 16, 2002

Today, somebody by the name of \"Faustina\" is posting telecom questions from a text that looks suspiciously similar to \"Sibila\"\'s text.

Empty profile, country Argentina.



Any shrink in the EN-ES community? I\'m afraid it is a severe case of split personality.



Regards,



Patricia
[addsig]


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Giuseppina Vecchia  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 15:29
Member (2012)
English to Italian
+ ...
Answering consecutive questions? Jan 16, 2002

[quote]

in some cases posting consecutive questions can be seen as a gesture of fairness compared to questions with a long paragraph in the context field which the asker apparently would like us to translate. Which I never do, but often I end up with no KudoZ for my troubles because somebody with more time on their hands decides to render the whole lot [unquote]



This is what I had in mind in my previous posting. There are a few people who are constantly posting the whole translation they should be doing, and most people start answering before realizing what\'s going on. I am not talking about the 11-year-old trying to get someone to do his homework for him, but real, actual translation jobs. This is not fair at all, and we should try and do something about it. Maybe I sound bitter, but really, it is not funny to sit here waiting for something to do, and seeing someone else getting a job they are not really qualified for.

Have a good day everyone.


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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 09:29
German to English
+ ...
You completely misunderstood, Eivind! Jan 16, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-01-16 09:55, fidotext wrote:

Dear all,


After Andrea\'s very reasonable message, I think this is turning into a bit of a witch hunt. As far as I can see, Andrea is talking about one person having two user names and using one to post questions and the other to answer them and scoop in a few KudoZ.
Squashing questions that combined form continuous text is another matter -- it\'s fine by me, only in some cases posting consecutive questions can be seen as a gesture of fairness compared to questions with a long paragraph in the context field which the asker apparently would like us to translate. Which I never do, but often I end up with no KudoZ for my troubles because somebody with more time on their hands decides to render the whole lot.


As for terms/words that can be readily found in dictionaries/glossaries -- are we to exclude all \"simple\" questions in a wholesale fashion, bending over to Werner George\'s very vividly put and less than well considered point of view? I don\'t think so. They should be redirected, if necessary to the Easy section. But I for one aren\'t going to tell an 11-year German lad old who\'s writing an essay about Norway to go buy a dictionary before he dares post KudoZ-questions to their lingual highnesses the proZ. And the reason why peers grade these answers? They know the asker is very unlikely to award points, so it\'s a gesture of solidarity.


Rules and guidelines are necessary, but what it really comes down to is if you let yourself be taken advantage of on this site, don\'t blame everyone else.






This is NOT about easy and difficult questions, but about abusers who try to get translations done for free (and some members, including a few moderators, DO bend over backwards trying to score points in the process). Please stay on topic!!! Besides, I never said, \"let\'s squash all simple questions\" (where did you read that?????). It is questions from known abusers that must be squashed, even if they have been answered.

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-01-16 14:20 ]

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Tim Drayton  Identity Verified
Cyprus
Local time: 16:29
Turkish to English
+ ...
Kudoz forum has lost its credibilty for me Jan 16, 2002

The Turkish - other languages kudoz forum has long since degenerated into a facility mainly for getting the meaty parts of love letters/ personal messages etc. translated for free.

OK, Henry says you can elect whether or not to take \'easy\' questions. Fine. I regard it as being beneath my dignity to provide the translation of, say, \'I love you\' for the nth time. So somebody else comes along and gives the answer. They are rewarded with 4 points for their \'effort\'. The whole point here is that kudoz points are central to the way translators are rated at Proz. If you chose to ignore such idiotic questions, other people who answer them end up being rated better translators than yourself.



A couple of months back, somebody who is registered as an English to Dutch translator posted a whole love letter in Turkish, broken down sentence by sentence, with each sentence as a separate question, to be translated into English. The sentences were such that only an intermediate knowledge of the language would be required to translate them. I sent this person an e-mail with the translation of the entire letter, and also suggested that this represented an abuse of this forum, which I (naively?) understand to be a forum for the discussion of points of real difficulty for professionals, and also offered to translate any further such letters for a nominal fee. Needless to say, other people posted answers to the questions, a great many points were awarded, and certain people as a result were rated \'better\' translators at Proz.

(May I make a suggestion - OK, let\'s have easy questions, but people can answer them for fun only, and kudoz points should be reserved for answers to questions posted by professionals on points of genuine difficulty).

Later, the same person who posted this love letter asked the meaning of a single word, doðum. You only have to refer to a dictionary to see that this means \'birth\' in English. Somebody posted the correct answer, then another \'expert\' gave the answer as \'birthday\', which is wrong. \'Birthday\' in Turkish is \'doðum günü\' which anybody who refers to a pocket dictionary can easily confirm. Can you guess which answer was awarded four points? Yes, I am sorry to say the wrong answer. When I checked the details of this \'expert\', I discovered that this was a Spanish and Catalan linguist. In other words points were awarded by a person with no knowledge of Turkish to a person with no knowledge of a Turkish for a patently wrong answer!

That day the kudoz forum lost any remaining credibility it had for me, and I have ever since refused to participate or even look at the questions.


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