 Track this topic | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | | User | Thread poster: Henry D Clients / large translation companies now talking about pooling linguistic data. Should we be there? |
|---|
Henry D
United States
Local time: 02:31
 Member
SITE FOUNDER TOPIC STARTER | | I agree, Siegfried | Aug 2, 2008 |
Good post. Very insightful and fair (except the outsourcer-centric part; that is a misconception). I also agree with you about Google, and about the possibility of having a TM solution of our own here at ProZ.com.
Thanks for answering the surveys, everyone. This will be a topic for the upcoming conferences.
| | | | Max2Zam
German to French
+ ...
| | There's no future in translation | Aug 2, 2008 |
I am a student specialised in translation and this is exactly the type of evolution in the tranlation's sphere that pushes me not to keep on getting specialised in that profession.
I see that prices are low and that the biggest translation agencies now gather to have even more power concerning prices over translators.
What can we do against such things? An easy answer: nothing!
Translation was something I dreamed about when I was younger. Next week I'll turn 25 and I know that my professional future does not belong to translation anymore.
| | | | Gerard de Noord 
France
Local time: 08:31
 Member (2003)
German to Dutch
+ ...
| | Blame your professors | Aug 2, 2008 |
Max2Zam wrote:
I am a student specialised in translation and this is exactly the type of evolution in the translation's sphere that pushes me not to keep on getting specialised in that profession.
I see that prices are low and that the biggest translation agencies now gather to have even more power concerning prices over translators.
What can we do against such things? An easy answer: nothing!
Translation was something I dreamed about when I was younger. Next week I'll turn 25 and I know that my professional future does not belong to translation anymore. |
|
By all means, call your professors to account.
As Siegfreid wrote:
All in all, the time has come where we (as translators) have to realize that our industry is changing, it is no longer paper and pencil, it is no longer a PC and just Word, we are on the edge of automation and industrialization of large parts of the translation industry. |
|
You should have been informed about this when you started your linguistic studies but the people who taught you probably were my age. They recorded or pasted their first Word macro in 2004 and were proud they finally could paint Word styles. Many of those paper-and-pencil professors overlooked the importance of Word, PCs and CAT and I'm sure they'll miss out on next step too.
Max2Zam, stay pragmatic. Your language pairs will be among the first to suffer from 'industrialization', so keep away from the specialisations that will most likely be affected first, like - let me guess - Automotive, EU, IT, Legal, Medicine. Specialise in subjects that have to stay fresh to sell.
ProZ.com is a global venue and has to address global challenges, but to put it all into perspective: I translate into Dutch, a language too small to put any effort into developing serious MT applications and probably too small to 'leverage pooled data'.
ProZ.com is a community of individuals facing dissimilar challenges. I feel a bond with all my colleagues over here but when I read that the profession or the industry is going in a certain direction, my first thought is: poor Spanish/French/Russian/Hindi into English etc. translators, they already earn half of what I do.
Regards,
Gerard
  | | | | Janet Rubin
Australia
Local time: 17:31
Member (2008)
German to English
| | An aside on legal | Aug 3, 2008 |
Gerard de Noord wrote:
so keep away from the specialisations that will most likely be affected first, like - let me guess - Automotive, EU, IT, Legal, Medicine. Specialise in subjects that have to stay fresh to sell.
|
|
I wouldn't necessarily lump legal in there just yet.
It's true that a lot of contracts can be (and have been) standardized, but I do a lot of litigation translation, and I don't believe that litigation will be easily automated any time in the near future! Case in point, it's pretty hard to get decent "TM matches" out of the argumentation used by lawyers (especially the ones that prefer sentences with 100+ words).
| | | | Tomás Cano Binder, CT
Spain
Local time: 08:31
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| | How much is standardized contents? | Aug 3, 2008 |
Siegfried Armbruster wrote:
I am fed up with the discussion on how the use of TMs is going to interfere with the "pure" quality of translations or who owns the IP on what.
Fact is, a lot of the material I'm translating is standardized. What should be wrong in producing a TM from the EMEA guidelines for PILs and SPCs or the "R & S sentences" and sharing it. What should be wrong in producing lists of standardized translations for "adverse effects" or "limited warranty" sections. All these text segments exist several hundered or thousand times in the WWW and are reused by many translators after researching the internet.
I am not breaking anybodys IP when using the standard translation of the first 10 sentences of a PIL. |
|
Yes, I completely agree: many standard sentences and statements exist in our translations. Ok. Let's put them together in a TM to be shared around anybody interested. Now:
1. Does a TM with standardized sentences and expressions make a difference to the world of translation? Not really: It will only mean something in the range of 5-10% of a new PIL translation, and a nominal fraction of the new translation of a patent. The rest will have to be translated.
2. Does such a TM reduce the required level of expertise of the next translator having to work on a new PIL or patent? Not really: The same expertise is needed for the non-standard part. If you are not an expert, you should not translate the next PIL or patent, and if you are an expert, you already know the standard sentences and expressions by heart.
So... in my opinion, privacy is still a problem here, because what we are discussing here are not standard lines and headings: we are talking about full translation memories. Please do not minimise that fact talking about standard sentences and terminology anybody can already find in Eurlex and other sources.
The promotion in this forum of the violation of our customers' rights and expectations about us as a profession really strikes me. Also, my questions to Henry about "privately" sharing TMs are still unanswered.
| | | | Henry D
United States
Local time: 02:31
Member
SITE FOUNDER TOPIC STARTER | | Answer to Tomás | Aug 3, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
The promotion in this forum of the violation of our customers' rights and expectations about us as a profession really strikes me. Also, my questions to Henry about "privately" sharing TMs are still unanswered. |
|
RobinB was among those who answered you on that. Obviously, we are limiting ourselves to instances where sharing would be possible and legitimate.
| | | | Tomás Cano Binder, CT
Spain
Local time: 08:31
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| | Asking the customer? | Aug 3, 2008 |
Henry D wrote:
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
The promotion in this forum of the violation of our customers' rights and expectations about us as a profession really strikes me. Also, my questions to Henry about "privately" sharing TMs are still unanswered. |
|
RobinB was among those who answered you on that. Obviously, we are limiting ourselves to instances where sharing would be possible and legitimate. |
|
You mean asking the customers who ─except for the standard sentences and headings to be found in international standards─ are the owners of what we translate?
| | | | Tomás Cano Binder, CT
Spain
Local time: 08:31
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| | "having a TM solution of our own here at ProZ.com" | Aug 3, 2008 |
Henry D wrote:
Good post. Very insightful and fair (except the outsourcer-centric part; that is a misconception). I also agree with you about Google, and about the possibility of having a TM solution of our own here at ProZ.com.
|
|
I think this, and no other reason, is why we are discussing TAUS' initiatives for so many days. Henry, if your intention is to create a TM or TU sharing tool in Proz.com, why don't you plainly explain your motives and goals, so that we can tell whether we can ─or feel allowed and entitled to─ use it? We are grown-ups, as somebody said here. We can take it.
In my opinion, Proz.com is doing a great job at comoditizing translation, with no lower limit to the rates in pairs where setting a lower limit would not be a problem, and a job bank that is no longer a job bank but an eBay auction where our rates go lower and lower.
Creating a TM sharing method here in Proz will probably take us to the next step: by allowing translators ─or those translators who are not too worried about privacy of their work─ to put their TUs in Proz.com, you will bring comoditization of translation a step further, as customers will have the feeling that anybody can translate a patent, a PIL, a manual, or a contract. This will again lower our rates in the near future.
Cross your heart Henry: Are you sure that your interest is to promote our well-being as translators? Or are you trying to promote Proz.com, your income and traffic? In a sense, these two goals look somewhat incompatible to me if the only way you see of promoting our well-being is commoditizing translation further and further.
| | | | Henry D
United States
Local time: 02:31
Member
SITE FOUNDER TOPIC STARTER | | Doubting Tomás | Aug 3, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
Henry D wrote:
Good post. Very insightful and fair (except the outsourcer-centric part; that is a misconception). I also agree with you about Google, and about the possibility of having a TM solution of our own here at ProZ.com.
|
|
I think this, and no other reason, is why we are discussing TAUS' initiatives for so many days. |
|
You had a different theory, quite the opposite of this one, just yesterday. You perhaps think that everyone but you, having taken this topic at face value, has been fooled?
| Cross your heart Henry: Are you sure that your interest is to promote our well-being as translators? |
|
To know what motivates me, and my team, you can just look around this site. I hope you find things that are valuable for your business.
| | | | Bucherre
United States
Local time: 23:31
Member (2008)
English to French
+ ...
| | good form, Henry | Aug 3, 2008 |
Henry D wrote:
Hi all,
TAUS Data Association Incorporated by Group of 40 Founding Members
Amsterdam, June 30, 2008: Forty organizations active in buying and supplying translation services and technologies have jointly established a new industry association aimed at sharing parallel language data with the objective to stimulate innovation and automation of translation activities. The TAUS Data Association (TDA)... |
|
For the whole thing, see: http://www.translationautomation.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=artic le&catid=45:news_archive&id=173:press-release&Itemid=46
It strikes me that translators, and to some extent small companies, are not yet represented, even though we might benefit from, and also contribute to, efforts such as these.
Two questions:
1. Does this topic matter to your business? How?
2. Should ProZ.com join as a company, maybe with a designated attendee or two (translator and small company) from among our members? |
|
| | | | Madeleine MacRae Klintebo
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:31
Member
Swedish to English
+ ...
| | Name calling is too childish for a professional (?) site | Aug 3, 2008 |
Henry D wrote: Your mother named you well!
|
|
Whether or not you agree with Tomas, references to his name are a bit childish. My parents (father's choice actually) named me Madeleine. Check out the etymology of that name and decide what career he might have envisaged for me...
While I'm at it, can I direct everyone to an interesting posting by RoyMarie on page 7 of this thread. As his postings (like mine) have to be vetted, but then get posted chronologically, I think quite a few of our colleagues might have missed it.
| | | | Henry D
United States
Local time: 02:31
Member
SITE FOUNDER TOPIC STARTER | | No offense, Tomás | Aug 3, 2008 |
Madeleine MacRae Klintebo wrote:
| Henry D wrote: Your mother named you well! |
|
Name calling is too childish for a professional (?) site.
Whether or not you agree with Tomas, references to his name are a bit childish. |
|
Thanks for letting me know that that my post must have come off harsher than I meant it. No offense was intended, Tomás. In fact, your name runs in my family. It is one of my favorites.
| | | | Paul Greer
United States
Local time: 23:31
English to Arabic
+ ...
| | Gentlemen, please.... | Aug 3, 2008 |
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
I think this, and no other reason, is why we are discussing TAUS' initiatives for so many days. Henry, if your intention is to create a TM or TU sharing tool in Proz.com, why don't you plainly explain your motives and goals, so that we can tell whether we can ─or feel allowed and entitled to─ use it? We are grown-ups, as somebody said here. We can take it.
In my opinion, Proz.com is doing a great job at comoditizing translation, with no lower limit to the rates in pairs where setting a lower limit would not be a problem, and a job bank that is no longer a job bank but an eBay auction where our rates go lower and lower.
Creating a TM sharing method here in Proz will probably take us to the next step: by allowing translators ─or those translators who are not too worried about privacy of their work─ to put their TUs in Proz.com, you will bring comoditization of translation a step further, as customers will have the feeling that anybody can translate a patent, a PIL, a manual, or a contract. This will again lower our rates in the near future.
Cross your heart Henry: Are you sure that your interest is to promote our well-being as translators? Or are you trying to promote Proz.com, your income and traffic? In a sense, these two goals look somewhat incompatible to me if the only way you see of promoting our well-being is commoditizing translation further and further. |
|
With all due respect Tomás,
statements like these are exactly what I addressed in earlier posts. Obviously, you are very displeased with the developments in this industry. So where the Luddites. Although I can follow your line of thinking, this particular attitude in freelance translators is exactly what makes us as a corporation perceive a need to drive automation, as we do feel that "producers" of our product would like to deliberately limit supply chains in order to leverage us.
Picking one particular venue, demonizing it, and assigning guilt doesn't really work.
Sorry, no disrespect intended, but it really has to be said.
PS:
TAUS makes their data contributor model readily available to those interested, I'd strongly suggest to review them before "speculating" in these manners. Perceived problems may be non-existent after all.
Best regards
Paul
[Edited at 2008-08-03 23:51]
| | | | Tomás Cano Binder, CT
Spain
Local time: 08:31
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| | Sensible proposals | Aug 4, 2008 |
RoyMarie wrote:
So what could ProZ do?
ProZ could help members develop new kinds of professional services that focus on translation related but not purely translation work, e.g.Translation Corpus development, Linguistic Consulting services, Data Normalization strategies etc.. and services from virtual expert panels that could e.g. advise global enterprises on the best way to convert a 100,000 page knowledge base into 10 languages, pulling in ProZ membership to help with the post-editing (for a fee of course).
|
|
I think this post is very interesting indeed. And I agree with RoyMarie that following the ways of TAUS would not be very sensible in the middle run. Opportunity exists to jump one step further, and doing so would be awfully interesting and probably profitable to many Proz members.
| | | | Tomás Cano Binder, CT
Spain
Local time: 08:31
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
| | Profits, not our attitude | Aug 4, 2008 |
AFLSSInc wrote:
statements like these are exactly what I addressed in earlier posts. Obviously, you are very displeased with the developments in this industry. So where the Luddites. |
|
I think the comparison with Luddites is not a very successful one. But if that's the way you tag anyone who does not agree with your opinion about how a market should develop, I understand. I think technology could be used in far better ways to help translation as an industry.
Although I can follow your line of thinking, this particular attitude in freelance translators is exactly what makes us as a corporation perceive a need to drive automation, as we do feel that "producers" of our product would like to deliberately limit supply chains in order to leverage us.
|
|
My interpretation of TAUS' presentation was correct: there ARE enough translators, but TAUS members don't want to pay reasonable rates in the future.  It's not a matter of companies disliking translators' attitudes about the evolution of the market. It's just about money and profits.
| Picking one particular venue, demonizing it, and assigning guilt doesn't really work. |
|
Who demonized Proz? I haven't described Proz as diabolic or mean. Just ─IMHO─ mistaken about how to help promote the greatness of translation and well-being of translators.
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator | Clients / large translation companies now talking about pooling linguistic data. Should we be there? |
