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Isn't it a good idea to hide my answer iff
Thread poster: Chinoise

Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:03
English to Chinese
+ ...
Jul 22, 2003

1) I am much dissatisfied with my own answer;
2) I have made a mistake or typo which I feel extremely uncomfortable with;
3) My answer is identical to that of the previous answerer;
4) The reference is not well chosen, yet the graders keep giving "agree"s.

IMHO, if I don't make my answers of (1),(2), and (4) invisible, I will blame myself for giving wrong or bad answers which may lead the askers to go astray; If I keep answering questions of (3) without hiding them when finding them already perfectly answered by the previous answerer(s), I will get successive emails and keep saying "Thanks!"

Personally speaking, I really enjoy the "hide answer" function in the KudoZ section and the ability to use it. In the meantime, I would like to hear my colleagues' enlightening viewpoints in this regard.

Thank you in advance!


[Edited at 2003-07-24 00:23]


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Ruben Berrozpe  Identity Verified
English to Spanish
Good summary Jul 22, 2003

Hi, I totally agree with you. Perhaps a typo (option 2) could be amended in a further comment (even if the comment might be overlooked in the end), and references (option 4) could be added/commented in another comment. That leaves us with options (1) and (3).

My short experience tells me that the worst feeling is that of a negative comment - even neutral comments have some sort of negative nuance ("i don't agree with you but..."), and I try to hide my answer whenever negative comments enlighten me. Now, I've even made it without the need of a negative, sometimes even a second post is so much better than yours that...
Concerning repeated posts, well this is (happily) a fast forum and these things are bound to happen. Not so much of a problem, I think. Most of us recognize the value of accuracy and speed, and being the first of two identical, good answers is usually viewed like a clean, "photo finish" victory.

My bottom line is: you can have a good time competing for kudoz, but we shouldn't forget this is a tool conceived to help other translators. Fellowship is crucial and options such as hiding answers provide us with tools to make this help even finer.

Cheers

Rb

(You may not agree with this post and I'll try to hide it, I promise


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schmurr  Identity Verified
Local time: 05:03
Italian to German
+ ...
yes, and moreover Jul 22, 2003

if you want to correct your answer, you can hide it, copy it and paste the contents into a new answer, modifying it.

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Guereau
France
Local time: 05:03
English to French
+ ...
A good tip Jul 22, 2003

Martin Schmurr wrote:

if you want to correct your answer, you can hide it, copy it and paste the contents into a new answer, modifying it.


That's the way to use it !


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Ruben Berrozpe  Identity Verified
English to Spanish
but... strange behaviours Jul 22, 2003

I forgot to add a couple of things:

1- People who disagree with your answer, then put forward another answer. I cannot understand that. You may say you think the others were wrong and you think your answer is right IN your answer. Doing both things is, IMO, unnecessarily aggressive. Of course you may simply disagree with an answer if you think a different right answer was already provided - that's what disagree's for, right?

2- People who agree with the second identical answer. They're identical for god's sake. If you agree with one of them, you necessarily agree with the other, right? At least you must agree w/ the first one.

Well, I guess it's just a lot of people and a lot of practices out there...


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Ruchira Shukla
India
Local time: 08:33
English to Japanese
+ ...
peopel misuse it too !! Jul 22, 2003

[quote]Ruben Berrozpe wrote:
My bottom line is: you can have a good time competing for kudoz, but we shouldn't forget this is a tool conceived to help other translators. Fellowship is crucial and options such as hiding answers provide us with tools to make this help even finer.



I agree the hide option is definitely useful .. Especially if you have inadvertedly given a wrong answer. But then people misuse it too ..
I once posted a reply for a Japanese term and unfortunately disagreed with someone else's answer because it was totally wrong. That person not only hid his answer to which I had disagreed but composed a new answer using my term. Then he went and disagreed with my original answer!
So there are people out there really misusing this option too !!!


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:03
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Yes, I agree with you! Jul 22, 2003

My bottom line is: you can have a good time competing for KudoZ. but we shouldn't forget this is a tool conceived to help other translators. Fellowship is crucial and options such as hiding answers provide us with tools to make this help even finer.

Cheers

Rb

(You may not agree with this post and I'll try to hide it, I promise )


Yes, in a spirit of help and cooperativeness ,we are always trying
to give the best possible answer in a concerted effort. Accordingly, this
"hide answer" function is not only useful but also well liked by most or all of us...


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:03
English to Chinese
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Exactly! Jul 22, 2003

Martin Schmurr wrote:

if you want to correct your answer, you can hide it, copy it and paste the contents into a new answer, modifying it.


I completely agree with you!

That's what I have been doing recently with several of my answers which are incorrect or look unbearably awkward to me. It's much more worthwhile to copy it and paste the correct content into a new pane than to make corrections over and over again in the same place, possibly misleading the askers as well as the graders who may not have so much time to read on and on and on...


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:03
English to Chinese
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Yes, you are right! Jul 22, 2003

Frédéric Guéreau wrote:

Martin Schmurr wrote:

if you want to correct your answer, you can hide it, copy it and paste the contents into a new answer, modifying it.


That's the way to use it !


Besides, that's one of the many excellent services we are enjoying on this site


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:03
English to Chinese
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TOPIC STARTER
True! Jul 22, 2003

[quote]Ruchira Shukla wrote:

Ruben Berrozpe wrote:


I agree the hide option is definitely useful .. Especially if you have inadvertedly given a wrong answer. But then people misuse it too ..
I once posted a reply for a Japanese term and unfortunately disagreed with someone else's answer because it was totally wrong. That person not only hid his answer to which I had disagreed but composed a new answer using my term. Then he went and disagreed with my original answer!
So there are people out there really misusing this option too !!!


In this case, that person is abusing this option and, more severely, committing plagiarism, which should be stopped at once.


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 20:03
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
This conversation was started from the Chinese Forum on July 21. Jul 22, 2003

Hello, Everyone!

Nice discussion!

It is wonderful to hear different voices and opinions. For your information, this conversation actually was started by me in the Chinese Forum under the topic "Is this a normal hiding behavior for a translator?"

I am glad to see BBW C.Tran,ATIO chose to discuss the topic in this Forum. In order for the participants in this discussion to have a complete story, I copied my initial message here for you to read, or you are welcome to visit the following site to read more of this discussion:

http://www.proz.com/topic/12789

Thanks!

Kevin

Kevin Yang wrote:

What would be considered as "normal" behaviors for a translator to "Hide" his/her answers?

ProZ.com has been so humane that it offers "Hide" feature to every posted KudoZ answer and Forum message. I think it is a nice feature to have for those who needs to use it occasionally.

I confess that I only used it once during my entire membership with ProZ.com. I misunderstood a KudoZ question and gave a wrong answer. But after I did that, I switched it right back and let it be displayed for everyone to see, because I believe this is a discussion room and mistake is allowed and, most importantly, the peer translators would appreciate to see the process of the discussion, and the trail of brainstorm that an appropriate answer is developed, and this way can help other translator to learn how to tackle a translation. From then on, whenever I feel I need to revise my previous answer, I simply add on new notes within my first posting. If I agree with another translator's translation or see something is better than mind, I would make a comment within my posted answer.

The strange thing happened in the Chinese-English language pairs. There is such a Chinese translator seems "care" very much about the "cleanness" of her record or trail. As a moderator, I can see this Chinese translator uses this "Hide" feature far more frequently than any other translators, by rough count there are over 40 KudoZ answers now containing double or triple entries. I took time and reviewed her KudoZ records and found the "Hide" fell into the following patterns:
(1) The first posted answer was not correct, after saw other translators' answers, she hides her previous answer and re-post a fresh one; Surprisingly enough, she got quite number of KudoZ points by playing this trick!
(2) There is a typo in the answer, then she hides this one and re-post a fresh one;
(3) The reference info provided needs to revise in the first answer, then she hides it and re-post it with different references provided.

Is this really necessary? What is the integrity and honesty here? Has the "Hide" feature got abused in this case. I wonder if this is acceptable or would be considered as normal hiding behavior for a translator.

Kevin



[Edited at 2003-07-24 01:01]


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:03
English to Chinese
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Please refer to the following links and pay attention to your wording... Jul 22, 2003

Kevin Yang wrote:

Hello, Everyone!

Nice discussion!

It is wonderful to hear different voices and opinions. For your information, this conversation actually was started by me in the Chinese Forum under the topic "Is this a normal hiding behavior for a translator?"

I am glad to see BBW C.Tran,ATIO chose to discuss her reasons in this Forum. In order for the participants in this discussion to have a complete story, I copied my initial message here for you to read, or you are welcome to visit the following site to read more of this discussion:

http://www.proz.com/topic/12789

Kevin Yang wrote:

What would be considered as "normal" behaviors for a translator to "Hide" his/her answers?

ProZ.com has been so humane that it offers "Hide" feature to every posted KudoZ answer and Forum message. I think it is a nice feature to have for those who needs to use it occasionally.

I confess that I only used it once during my entire membership with ProZ.com. I misunderstood a KudoZ question and gave a wrong answer. But after I did that, I switched it right back and let it be displayed for everyone to see, because I believe this is a discussion room and mistake is allowed and, most importantly, the peer translators would appreciate to see the process of the discussion, and the trail of brainstorm that an appropriate answer is developed, and this way can help other translator to learn how to tackle a translation. From then on, whenever I feel I need to revise my previous answer, I simply add on new notes within my first posting. If I agree with another translator's translation or see something is better than mind, I would make a comment within my posted answer.

The strange thing happened in the Chinese-English language pairs. There is such a Chinese translator seems "care" very much about the "cleanness" of her record or trail. As a moderator, I can see this Chinese translator uses this "Hide" feature far more frequently than any other translators, by rough count there are over 40 KudoZ answers now containing double or triple entries. I took time and reviewed her KudoZ records and found the "Hide" fell into the following patterns:
(1) The first posted answer was not correct, after saw other translators' answers, she hides her previous answer and re-post a fresh one; Surprisingly enough, she got quite number of KudoZ points by playing this trick!
(2) There is a typo in the answer, then she hides this one and re-post a fresh one;
(3) The reference info provided needs to revise in the first answer, then she hides it and re-post it with different references provided.

Is this really necessary? What is the integrity and honesty here? Has the "Hide" feature got abused in this case. I wonder if this is acceptable or would be considered as normal hiding behavior for a translator.

Kevin



[Edited at 2003-07-22 16:05]


These are the three KudoZ questions, my answers to which have been hidden and made visible many times. The first two questions have nothing to do with "repost", but were made visible many times around and on June 19, 2003.The last question falls under Category 2 where I made a typo and was willing to answer it again after hiding my initial answer.

By the way, I have been wondering who made the first two hidden answers visible over and over again around/on June 19 ( I contacted the proz.com techncial support that day, they witnessed the whole story , kindly spending almost half a day doing those "technical" tests and finally found that this was done manually, and only moderators had that ability.) And for the third question, on the night of July 20, I hid it twice, but then saw it become visible twice . I hid it again . But the next morning, it became visible again. What happened? Who did this ? These three answers, according to all professional translators, are well worth hiding.
Who secretly made them visible again and again and again until I had to file the support request?

This third link does give me some hints , because after I got up and checked my email, I found an email containing an "agree" from Kevin Yang with his comments. As it was already hidden by myself, how could you give comments? So perhaps it was made visible by you, Kevin? If so, for these particual questions , Why did you do so ? If not, sorry for my silly reasoning.

You mentioned my number of hidden answers(forty,which even I cannot remember) , but you forgot to mention the amount of questions that I have answered,which is approximately 2000-3000 or even more ( Sorry, no time to count them). A rough ratio of 40 to 2000+ is a lot smaller than 1/50.That is the very reason why you see me more frequently hide answers than other colleagues. Moreover, this reason is highly convincing as I answered far more questions than the average colleagues did.

Here are the links for your information:

www.proz.com/kudoz/460905
www.proz.com/kudoz/460922
www.proz.com/kudoz/483483


It should be noted that whether these answers are hidden or visible right now is not important at all, because the one who made them visible many times before can do it once more after reading this message!

















[Edited at 2003-07-24 00:30]


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Chinoise  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:03
English to Chinese
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
A more complete story... Jul 22, 2003

Maybe it's high time to let the dirt and filth be exposed to the sun and cleared. I know everybody is suspecting that the translator "abusing" the hide function in the thread post here could be me, now please allow me to make it clear that the "she" translator in that post is me, and that the story there is nowhere remotely near the truth.
As every normal person knows, the hide function of our Proz forum is a perfectly normal one that provides convenience to all members. Frankly, I didn't expect that things ridiculously abnormal could happen out of that.
I have explicitly enumerated the reasons why I use the hide function, which are:

1) I am much dissatisfied with my own answer;
2) I have made a mistake or typo which I feel extremely uncomfortable
with;
3) My answer is identical to that of the previous answerer;
4) The reference is not well chosen, yet the graders keep giving "agree"s.

It's lightyears far beneath me to even dream of playing tricks with the
hide function to earn "points". What's the point of doing that? I come here to make friends, to talk to like minds and to help those who are interested in the translation between Chinese and English. Anyone who could generate this idea of my earning points by hiding out of their mind might be really out of their mind. Besides, I have answered a few thousand questions so far
on Proz, and thanks to our Chinese moderator, I've just learned I've used the hide function 40 times. I didn't realize there was somebody out there who knew far better of what I was doing here than myself until someone reminded me by some incomprehensible sentences, to which please refer at
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/483483.
Let me brief you on this most extraordinary story that is pitiably true:

Normally I would not go back checking what I've done on Proz, I have more important things to attend to as most people. One day in June, I turned on my computer only to find email notifications of colleagues' "agree"s to the answer, the previous one of which I already hid the previous night. But I saw my hidden answer reappear! I was surprised and thought something must be wrong with my computer that was really dated and ready to be replaced. Such incidents happened a few
more times, I suspected some virus was working its way through my computer.
I complained to my computer-expert-husband, who dutifully examined the whole system and discovered nothing was wrong and everything was in order with the computer. But the weird phenomena kept popping up.

I needed ProZ and I didn't want this bug keeping pestering me, so I wrote an email to the Proz technical support requesting the explanation and solution of this problem. They were efficient, friendly and considerate, spending hours doing tests with me. Their conclusion was that the
network system was technically sound and well ,and they informed that only moderators had the ability to make a hidden post reappear. I certainly did suspect
something, but I really don't want to think ill of anybody, and I wished anybody committing that kind of stealthy act could stop and let all people live their lives.

Then comes the best moment of the story --¡°Õæ¿Õ°ü×°¡±¡£¡¡I made a typo I felt really uncomfortable with. It should be "packing", but I gave "parking", which was and still is intolerable to me, so I hid it and posted a fresh one. It appeared again, I hid it again. When the text page was dark I wrote a few notes to remind whoever doing that to stop, because I knew whoever doing that should be able to see my notes while others couldn't. But this post appeared three times after I hid it three times, and the last time with an "agree" and comments that I couldn't understand at all.Just go to http://www.proz.com/kudoz/483483, and you will see everything. When I was
still trapped in the feeling of disbelief and wondering how to end this without hurting anybody, I already found another unbelievable post at the Chinese Forum in which I was described as someone cheating points out of the hide function.

Do I still have room to make concessions? No way!

All evidences point to the assumption that our Chinese moderator Kevin Yang has stealthily made my hidden answers reappear many times without any of my knowledge.

Kevin, did you or did you not do that? If you did, let me ask you: as a moderator, don't you have better things to do than pestering me with this absurdity? Do you have the basic working ethics? Do you still think you are qualified as a moderator of this forum that attracted so many elite
professionals? Don't you feel it's time for you to step down as a moderator and make way for others (I would be willing to recommend a few candidates to the Proz management)?

Colleagues, give me your support!

Betty




















[Edited at 2003-07-24 00:45]


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Kevin Yang  Identity Verified
Local time: 20:03
Member (2003)
English to Chinese
+ ...
I paid attention to this issue for about a month now. Jul 22, 2003

Betty,

I hope we still stay on the topic we set for our discussion.

For the benefit of your curiosity, I have paid attention to this issue for about a month now. Your frequent usage of Hide feature standout among rest of translators. Fortunately, I was able and still can study each case and mke a decision on what is qualified to be hidden and what is NOT qualified to be hidden. If I see something not qualified to be hidden, I usually turn it on. It is one of the administrative priviliages that made available to all the moderators. I was not aware that my work would upset you so much. As matter of fact, I am still trying to comprehend why you are the only one who has so many things to hide.

BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:

You mentioned my number of hidden answers(forty,which even I cannot remember) , but you forgot to mention the amount of questions that I have answered,which is approximately 2000-3000 or even more ( Sorry, no time to count them). A rough ratio of 40 to 2000+ is a lot smaller than 1/50.That is the very reason why you see me more frequently hide answers than other colleagues. Moreover, this reason is highly convincing as I answered far more questions than the average colleagues did.
[Edited at 2003-07-22 19:12]


Your math was completely wrong. I know you are busy, but I am busy, too. Because I am interested in this issue, so I do not mind to spend time on it. In my study of your case, I had a rough count that there are over 40 KudoZ questions that contain your double and triple entries. That adds up to about 100 entries that are related to our discussion here. You mentioned in your previous message that you have over 2000 KudoZ answers. You are wrong, I hope you did not try to mislead the readers intentionally. The correct number of answers given by you in the Chinese-English languages pairs is 599 entries and you have earned 1,206 KudoZ points.

BBW C.Tran,ATIO wrote:
Here are the links for your information:

www.proz.com/kudoz/460905
www.proz.com/kudoz/460922
www.proz.com/kudoz/483483

[Edited at 2003-07-22 19:12]


A selective collection of samples. But, I do not know what they are trying to support. Would you like me to list some for you? You can take this as I am asking for your permission now.


Kevin



[Edited at 2003-07-23 06:35]


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Deborah Shannon  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 05:03
Member (2002)
German to English
Is this high-handedness acceptable from a "moderator"? Jul 22, 2003

Kevin Yang wrote:

"Is this a normal hiding behavior for a translator?"


I wonder if this is acceptable or would be considered as normal hiding behavior for a translator.

Kevin

[/quote]

I don't know the people involved or their history - all I know is that it must be traumatic to be the victim of a personal vendetta conducted by a moderator who can even manipulate what you post where on the site.

Kevin, Proz is not a police state! I don't really have an opinion about the hiding behaviour of individuals, but I find it unacceptable for moderators to use their privileges to prove a point.


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