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"P" symbol - WHO makes the decision about competence?
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Thread poster: MariusV

"P" symbol - WHO makes the decision about competence?

Nikki Graham

United Kingdom
Local time: 10:18

Member (2003)
Spanish to English

Sigh

Mar 15, 2009

PRen wrote:

Don't you think it would be preferable to weed them out in the beginning?

Obviously. But aren't we, and Proz.com, allowed to learn from our mistakes, or does everything have to be perfect from the start?

And I'm pretty sure that over the many years I've been reading these forums that I have seen countles people question the translation ability of people with translation degrees, ATA certification, etc. Sometimes I think these comments are based on personal dislike or a single bad experience with this person in KudoZ rather than on an objective view of their translation skills (not thinking about anyone in particular).

And don't you think (addressed at those who have refrained from applying for the P badge for whatever reason) that you might be better able to do something about your complaints from the inside rather than out?

Fredrik Nowacki

Sweden
Local time: 11:18
English to Swedish
+ ...

Not sure about the vetting procedures...

Mar 15, 2009

Elizabeth Adams wrote:

Uldis Liepkalns wrote:

Of course, if ProZ accepts all certifications produced via Photoshop, no problem, by my first education I'm a graphic designer, in less than an hour per country I could supply all local communities with all certifications needed.

Very good point. Is Proz accepting scanned certificates, or do they have to come directly from the issuing association?

I sent my scanned Cambridge CPE certificate to Proz less than 48 hours ago, and had it accepted 10 hours later. So in that aspect yes: They do accept scanned certificates. However, I'm not sure what measures they take to validate the credentials. In my case, the certificate includes a specific serial number that would make it very easy to check with Cambridge if it is authentic. I hope they did...

Prof. Angie G.

Spain
Local time: 11:18

Member (2003)
French to Italian
+ ...

Sorry, this is not fair

Mar 15, 2009

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

only two Italian translators pass the ITI exam (member, not associate) every 3 months... if at all... hundreds passed the "P program" in my language combination... does that tell you anything about the "P certification" criteria? I think it does...

In my opinion this is an unfair insinuation.

I can assure you that there are many people with certifications.

[Edited at 2009-03-15 16:50 GMT]

Henry Dotterer
United States
Local time: 05:18

Member

SITE FOUNDER

Do you have specifics, Uldis?

Mar 15, 2009

Uldis Liepkalns wrote:
We have *heaps* of of Peed members in Baltic language groups

Really? In English to Latvian (your pair / your NL) there are four.

Therefore I reiterate Diana's question:
"who evaluates translations in Marius' language pairs.
Very curious indeed. Does anybody?"
I add from myself: What are the procedures?

Once again, the procedures are outlined in some detail in the program materials.

... some, whose knowledge of native language was long disputed by mods and community, now sports these P's.

As far as I know, no one has questioned the credentials of the four English to Latvian translators who have been admitted into the program. Their applications included degrees, references from clients, references from colleagues, stated years of experience, verified years at ProZ.com, and quite a bit more.

If you have a real basis for calling into question the capabilities or reliability of anyone in the program, I invite you to submit a support ticket with specific information, and this information will be considered. (Program participants sign an agreement indicating that they understand this type of feedback and review is part of the program.)

If you don't have any specific information about specific individuals, it would be helpful for you to refrain from making insinuations like the above.

Mariella Bonelli

Italy
Local time: 11:18

Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...

ITI is just not as popular as other associations

Mar 15, 2009

Sorry Giovanni, but you are not considering the fact that ITI in Italy is not as popular as other associations! I do not really know many colleagues who applied to become a member and never did I, for any specific reason, just because it is not a priority to me. On the contrary, I spend my daily working life together with Proz and the P program was indeed a priority to me, besides the fact that it has been clearly announced and as many other colleagues I did not need to investigate why and how... It was just there, inside my "close collaborator" called Proz.

xxxuldis

Latvia
Local time: 12:18
English to Latvian
+ ...

Yes Sir

Mar 15, 2009

Henry D wrote:
As far as I know, no one has questioned the credentials of the four English to Latvian translators who have been admitted into the program. Their applications included degrees, references from clients, references from colleagues, stated years of experience, verified years at ProZ.com, and quite a bit more.

"01 Translation ability
A screening process has been developed in accordance with the guidelines set forth in the EN 15038 standard for quality in translation. For translators, various means are used to confirm the "competences" called for in EN 15038, including verification of credentials that applicants have earned from associations around the world, such as the American Translator Association (USA), the Chartered Institute of Linguists (UK)."

As no body in the whole Universe issues such to translators into Baltic languages, I find this condition misleading. As I find the very name for this "certification" - would it be "ProZ.com recognised" - no problems. However, I'm afraid that not being a "linguistic authority", ProZ.com can't issue any linguistic certifications. At least in EU it most probably would be illegal and even criminal if I'd start to issue any "certified translators'" certificates.

If you have a real basis for calling into question the capabilities or reliability of anyone in the program, I invite you to submit a support ticket with specific information, and this information will be considered.

I have not the slightest doubts on professionalism of more than a half of Baltic translators sporting this "P".

(snip) it would be helpful for you to refrain from making insinuations like the above.

Point taken.

Uldis

[Rediģēts plkst. 2009-03-15 20:02 GMT]

Alicia Casal

Argentina
Local time: 07:18

Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...

When was the P Program announced?

Mar 15, 2009

I just can't remember.

But...Why so many objections NOW?

I do recall it was posted on the homepage.

Why wasn´t it objected at that moment?

Maybe I missed some threads...Did I?

Alicia

[Edited at 2009-03-15 20:35 GMT]

Jana Teteris

United Kingdom
Local time: 10:18
Latvian to English
+ ...

CIoL / ITI

Mar 15, 2009

[quote]Uldis Liepkalns wrote:

"01 Translation ability
A screening process has been developed in accordance with the guidelines set forth in the EN 15038 standard for quality in translation. For translators, various means are used to confirm the "competences" called for in EN 15038, including verification of credentials that applicants have earned from associations around the world, such as the American Translator Association (USA), the Chartered Institute of Linguists (UK)."

As no body in the whole Universe issues such to translators into Baltic languages, I find this condition misleading.
[quote]

What you're saying is not strictly true.

Both of the UK's professional organisations (the CIoL (Chartered Institute of Linguists) and the ITI (Institute of Translating & Interpreting)) have certified members in all 3 Baltic languages. I say this from personal experience.

Austra Muizniece

Latvia
Local time: 12:18

Member (2004)
English to Latvian
+ ...

CIOL and certification in Baltic languages

Mar 15, 2009

Jana Teteris wrote:

Both of the UK's professional organisations (the CIoL (Chartered Institute of Linguists) and the ITI (Institute of Translating & Interpreting)) have certified members in all 3 Baltic languages. I say this from personal experience.

Hi Jana,

Technically EN-LV certification is indeed possible in CIOL, I managed to register for it, but then my registration was cancelled and the fee returned due to the low (non-existant) number of participants in my language pair. So, if I wanted to pass the test, I would have had to pay the fee of 3 registrants (or maybe even 5), if I remember correctly, which would have amounted to well over 1000 pounds.

Austra

Jana Teteris

United Kingdom
Local time: 10:18
Latvian to English
+ ...

Diploma in translation

Mar 15, 2009

Austra Muizniece wrote:

Technically EN-LV certification is indeed possible in CIOL, I managed to register for it, but then my registration was cancelled and the fee returned due to the low (non-existant) number of participants in my language pair. So, if I wanted to pass the test, I would have had to pay the fee of 3 registrants (or maybe even 5), if I remember correctly, which would have amounted to well over 1000 pounds.

Austra, I think you're probably referring to the Diploma in translation (or another exam), which is just one of the many routes to obtaining membership of the CIoL. Passing the diploma doesn't mean that you automatically become a Member of the CIoL, as that involves a separate application process (and vice-versa, of course!)

Jana

ariffo

Chile
Local time: 07:18
English to Spanish

It was

Mar 15, 2009

Alicia Casal wrote:

I just can't remember.

But...Why so many objections NOW?

I do recall it was posted on the homepage.

Why wasn´t it objected at that moment?

Maybe I missed some threads...Did I?

Edited at 2009-03-15 20:35 GMT]

Shortly after it was announced, someone opened a thread similar to this one, asking about the screening process and other relevant issues. That thread was locked:
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom:_translator_coop/119140-a_couple_of_questions_about_the_certified_pro_program.html

Greetings
Andrea

[Edited at 2009-03-15 21:01 GMT]

Walter Landesman

Uruguay
Local time: 08:18

Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...

See Rule #12

Mar 15, 2009

ariffo wrote:

Shortly after it was announced, someone opened a thread similar to this one, asking about the screening process and other relevant issues. That thread was locked:
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom:_translator_coop/119140-a_couple_of_questions_about_the_certified_pro_program.html

Ariffo is right.

Furthermore, at that time we were informed that that thread was locked inforcing Forum Rule #12 http://www.proz.com/siterules/forum/12#12 :

"12 The Certified PRO network screening process should not be discussed in the forums. To maintain the integrity of the screening process for the Certified PRO network, specifics of the process should not be discussed in the forums. Details related to one's personal experience in the screening process for the Certified PRO network, including reasons received for acceptance or denial of one's application, should not be discussed in the forums. Questions may be submitted via support request."

According to that rule, this thread should have been deleted from the start. Moderators have been lenient and flexible, though, letting four pages of discussion pass by and allowing members to provide and discuss their reasons for agreements and disagreements.

xxxuldis

Latvia
Local time: 12:18
English to Latvian
+ ...

No comment

Mar 15, 2009

...

Uldis

Walter Landesman wrote:
According to that rule, this thread should have been deleted from the start. Moderators have been lenient and flexible, though, letting four pages of discussion pass by and allowing members to provide and discuss their reasons for agreements and disagreements.

writeaway

Local time: 11:18

Partial member
Dutch to English
+ ...

See Henry's statement

Mar 15, 2009

Walter Landesman wrote:
See Rule #12

Furthermore, at that time we were informed that that thread was locked inforcing Forum Rule #12 http://www.proz.com/siterules/forum/12#12 :

"12 The Certified PRO network screening process should not be discussed in the forums. To maintain the integrity of the screening process for the Certified PRO network, specifics of the process should not be discussed in the forums. Details related to one's personal experience in the screening process for the Certified PRO network, including reasons received for acceptance or denial of one's application, should not be discussed in the forums. Questions may be submitted via support request."

According to that rule, this thread should have been deleted from the start. Moderators have been lenient and flexible, though, letting four pages of discussion pass by and allowing members to provide and discuss their reasons for agreements and disagreements.

Henry D wrote:

At the risk of appearing to contradict other staff members and the rule that has been cited, I would say that program participants should not be too concerned about sharing details of the program. I think what happened is that those staff members leading the screening process wanted to proceed carefully (wisely), and the impression may have been given that there was something secretive about the program. This is not the case. Unless there is something you know that would compromise the integrity of the screening process, you can share just about anything about the program and even screening process.
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom:_translator_coop/130058-should_the_p_symbol_be_for_internal_eyes_only-page4.html