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Please do not bid or contact (us) outsourcers directly
Thread poster: Lexi-tech

Lexi-tech  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:53
Italian to English
+ ...
Apr 3, 2002

I have recently been hired by a large translation agency in Canada as recruiting manager. Proz.com had been invaluable to me as a freelancer and is proving invaluable also in my new position.

As a freelancer, I had complained that sometimes oursourcer did not show their information on the bidding. Now, that I am on the other side of the fence, so to speak, I know why.

What happened is that we have received tons of mails from the address provided on our site: messages have gone to our Sales Department, to our Moncton office, to everybody. Sometimes the same message has been sent to three different people.

This won\'t do. This is not the only hiring I have to do today and since I believe in common courtesy, I will have to spend a lot of time thanking people for their messages.

It is much easier to manage the bids from the job offer page on Proz.com than having messages sent to me three times or even twice or even once, outside of that easy-to-manage page.



paola l m



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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 19:53
SITE FOUNDER
client inconvenience = lost jobs for everyone Apr 4, 2002

If a client chooses not to make their email address visible, the reason is usually that they want to use the ProZ.com bid management functions. It is inconsiderate to go to the job poster\'s website and find email address to use to bypass the system, thereby creating additional work for the client.



It may sound nit-picky, but anyone who has ever posted a job knows that this type of activity adds significantly to project overhead.



If you are one of the people bypassing the system, and your reason is to get more attention, a little thought should tell you that by ignoring the wishes of the poster, you only decrease your chances of getting a job.



If your reason for bypassing the system is to avoiding a fee, here is a trick: enter 10 terms into your personal glossary that are indicative of your areas of expertise. That will not only show your expertise (people that search for those terms in the future will find your profile page!), but it will also give you enough browniz to bid for free. In other words, you can go the extra yard so that the client doesn\'t have to.



Along the same vein, if a job says \"bidders must live in Turkey\" or \"bidders must own MetaTexis\" and you don\'t, then don\'t bid. That simple. Otherwise, you are wasting your own time, and that of the client.


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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 19:53
German to English
+ ...
Well said Apr 4, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-04-04 04:49, Henry wrote:

If a client chooses not to make their email address visible, the reason is usually that they want to use the ProZ.com bid management functions. It is inconsiderate to go to the job poster\'s website and find email address to use to bypass the system, thereby creating additional work for the client.



It may sound nit-picky, but anyone who has ever posted a job knows that this type of activity adds significantly to project overhead.



If you are one of the people bypassing the system, and your reason is to get more attention, a little thought should tell you that by ignoring the wishes of the poster, you only decrease your chances of getting a job.



If your reason for bypassing the system is to avoiding a fee, here is a trick: enter 10 terms into your personal glossary that are indicative of your areas of expertise. That will not only show your expertise (people that search for those terms in the future will find your profile page!), but it will also give you enough browniz to bid for free. In other words, you can go the extra yard so that the client doesn\'t have to.



Along the same vein, if a job says \"bidders must live in Turkey\" or \"bidders must own MetaTexis\" and you don\'t, then don\'t bid. That simple. Otherwise, you are wasting your own time, and that of the client.





And I would also add (because I have seen this many, many times): if the outsourcer specifically asks for native speakers only, don\'t bid unless you\'re a native speaker of that particular language.

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bochkor
Local time: 19:53
English to German
+ ...
Disagree, self-defense is not inconsiderate, but unprofessionalism is! Apr 4, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-04-03 13:22, lexitech wrote:

messages have gone to our Sales Department, to our Moncton office, to everybody. Sometimes the same message has been sent to three different people.





Why do we translators have to pay with our payment security for the unprofessionalism (to say the least) of companies, which don\'t give you a proper tool to do your job?



They should have set up a separate e-mail address for the project manager (for example: paolalm@lexitech.com). For professional (not only large!) companies this is common daily routine. At every company I was hired this was done on the first day, so how long have you been there?



So just because your manager is unable to get off his chair, go over to the network guy / webmaster and have your account set up, now we translators should give up our right to self-defense and the right to know who we\'re dealing with: do you have ANY sense of fairness?



And how much more servile can you get, when whining about \"client inconvenience\"? So if you want to make it even more convenient for the agencies, why don\'t you let them post a job totally anonymously, with a smiley icon only or a number, for example? What would be the difference? Then we\'ll do the job and pray to God that maybe you\'ll be gracious enough to pay us (just read the Blue Board!), is that what you want?



The REAL inconvenience for your agency is to do the 5-minute job of setting up your e-mail account!

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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 01:53
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
Professionalism or Unprofessionalism: That's the Question! Apr 4, 2002

Hi Paola,



It is an old problem: \"unprofessionalism\". Many job posters state clearly not to send CVs or emails if a transaltor doesn\'t apply for the posted job... I believe many freelancers would just \"try\"... which is silly, but.... No chance to be taken seriously in future...



Anyway, tons of emails is the risk, perhaps a couple of filters could help in avoiding such a, like stating the exact \"Re.\" format, but not providing any URL is not a solution. Personally, I won\'t take seriously an agency which is not ready to let me see its URL in the posting, at least that!!! I don\'t need in this case any email address, as I only want to bid. If the poster asks for a translation text and I read www.noaddress.com (and I DID in one Proz posting, how do you want me to think? Someone protecting his/her mailbox??? No way... this is not professional as well. I think it is cheap. A clear URL is enough for me to accept to do the little test. No URL to prevent spamming? Okay, then the poster should choose some of the bidders, contact them via email and ask them to translate the posted text (they have his/her email address, which is not a clear statement of reliability, still a good starting point). I think this is correct. Professionalism should exist on both sides: Is it professional to post \"Translation: 19 pages\"??? And a deadline...Is it? 19 what? Standard pages, 25 lines or 250 words?? And the subject?? How can I bid professionally?? The only thing I can do is to ask for more details, but I don\'t think it should be my job, to that extent at least. We \"think\" in different terms all over the world as to pages, rates, words, lines, characters, strokes, subject and field, therefore job posting and bidding are in Proz a \"global activity\", which we should \"convert\" into something anyone can understand. You can have this only giving extra information, number of words, subject, specific field, CAT yes or no, TMs available yes or no, proof reading etc. as a job poster: all this would just make only (or almost only, I admit) qualified translators (for that job) apply for it (= reduced number of bidders to go through) and bidding would look more professional for sure.



My two €-cents



Giuliana
[addsig]


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Jacek Krankowski  Identity Verified
English to Polish
+ ...
Henry, Apr 4, 2002

Giuliana wrote: \"Professionalism should exist on both sides: Is it professional to post \"Translation: 19 pages\"??? 19 what? Standard pages, 25 lines or 250 words?? And the subject?? How can I bid professionally?? The only thing I can do is to ask for more details,\"



How about setting some guidelines for the clients so that this sort of uncertainty can be avoided if the client chooses to hide behind the bid management shield? Could not agree more with Giuliana and László in this respect.



Jacek



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Daina Jauntirans  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:53
Member (2005)
German to English
+ ...
Use snail mail Apr 4, 2002

Hi Paola,

If you have non-urgent jobs or are beefing up your database, you could state something like \"Only resumes sent by snail mail will be considered.\" That way you and your colleagues can delete the e-mails without reading them. You will know that the people who send in their snail mail applications can read and follow directions . And last but not least, you can sit down with a garbage can and weed out the chaff quickly! (In my experience, the number of applications with typos in the cover letter or totally irrelevant qualifications is astonishing...)

Cheers,

Daina


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John Kinory
Local time: 00:53
English to Hebrew
+ ...
Don't post an addy, but post a name Apr 7, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-04-03 13:22, lexitech wrote:

[snip]

As a freelancer, I had complained that sometimes oursourcer did not show their information on the bidding. Now, that I am on the other side of the fence, so to speak, I know why.

What happened is that we have received tons of mails from the address provided on our site: messages have gone to our Sales Department, to our Moncton office, to everybody. Sometimes the same message has been sent to three different people.

[snip]





Hi Paola,



It has to work both ways. Agencies are entitled to expect courtesy and professionalism, but translators are entitled to expect the same. I have stopped bidding on jobs, unless there are full details: at least the outsourcer\'s name, country, full (!) description of the job, and some assurance that at least Proz staff can do a follow-up if necessary. The whole bidding process is a waste of time if this is not provided, because many agencies simply go fishing to beef up their database or get free translations (not yours!).

of course, the translation itself should only be provided once the contractor is fully satisfied that the client is bona fide: email, website, phone/fax numbers. In my case, I must have spoken to the PM on the phone before I type a single word of the actual job.
[addsig]

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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 19:53
SITE FOUNDER
Paola is completely justified in her remarks Apr 8, 2002

Many good points have been made in this thread (detailed job-posting guidelines would help, one should not start a job before having accurate and detailed contact info, etc.) But none of this detracts in any way from Paola\'s complaint.



Imagine this scenario:



----------------



You are a project manager. A client agrees to order a translation from your agency, but only if you use translators living in Mexico.



So you go to ProZ.com and post a job, closing with the words, \"Bidders must live in Mexico.\"



Fifteen minutes after you post the job, you get email notification that a bid has arrived. You follow the link and the bid reads, \"I am not in Mexico, but...\" You take a moment to look over the profile anyway. Maybe you even write a friendly note to the bidder. But you must decline the bid.



Ten minutes later, you get another email. You click. This looks like a good bid. The person has relevant experience and offers a fair price. You click through to the bidder\'s profile to find that he lives in Canada. \"Huh?\" you think, and again decline.



Same thing happens a third time. This time, the bidder writes that she \'would like to explain to you that your descrimination on the basis of geography is unprofessional...\'

You decline the \'bid.\'



From the fourth notice on, you are not as anxious to view incoming bids. So you let a few pile up.



Now, the phone rings. It is a translator calling from Spain. You explain the job requirement and hang up.



Then, you get forwarded an email from the sales department. Someone has sent a resume to \'sales@yourcompany.com\' because they found that email address on the website you listed at ProZ.com. You realize that now, not only you, but several people in your office, are being inconvenienced.



You write a brief note to ProZ.com staff to complain.



--------------



Unfortunately, this scenario is not at all farfetched. It happens too frequently.



We intend to address this problem in the following ways:



(1) Public discussion regarding the issue.



I expect most offenders will desist once they understand how unlikely they are to get jobs by ignoring stated requirements.



(2) Structural limitations



If an outsourcer specifies \"mexico\" as a hard-and-fast requirement, people who are not in Mexico will not even be able to see the posting.



(3) Enforcement



People who repeatedly bid on jobs for which they are not qualified will be warned, and if they persist, will be banned.



.......



This is a community of translators. But let\'s not forget that the clients are the clients.


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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 19:53
German to English
+ ...
Excellent! Apr 8, 2002

Quote:


We intend to address this problem in the following ways:



(1) Public discussion regarding the issue.



I expect most offenders will desist once they understand how unlikely they are to get jobs by ignoring stated requirements.



(2) Structural limitations



If an outsourcer specifies \"mexico\" as a hard-and-fast requirement, people who are not in Mexico will not even be able to see the posting.



(3) Enforcement



People who repeatedly bid on jobs for which they are not qualified will be warned, and if they persist, will be banned.



.......



This is a community of translators. But let\'s not forget that the client is the client. Or else they will go elsewhere.





Right on!

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Lexi-tech  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:53
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
There was no provocation in my messagel Apr 9, 2002

But Lazlo insists in using condescending tones. So be it. Yes, I am green at this job and there is no need to inveigh.

You all know how vendicative and unfriendly I am

As to information on the agency where I work now, we have a page and a profile on Proz.com. How can we be more transparent than that? I have suggested to Henry that perhaps agencies should be listed separately and searched the same way that you \"Search for pros.\"

Before the job in question, I had listed two other jobs, complete with web site and my email address. What happened is that I was getting applications from our online form, from my email and from the Proz.com bid page. In the job in question, our website was posted, but I had not made my email address visible so that I could receive the bids from one place alone. This is not the only recruiting, interviewing, screening that I am doing.

I hope I explained my position.

paola l m



paola l m



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Ursula Peter-Czichi  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 19:53
German to English
+ ...
No Henry, Paola is not justified! Apr 13, 2002

Henry wrote:

.....

Imagine this scenario:



----------------



You are a project manager. A client agrees to order a translation from your agency, but only if you use translators living in Mexico.



So you go to ProZ.com and post a job, closing with the words, \"Bidders must live in Mexico.\"



Fifteen minutes after you post the job, you get email notification that a bid has arrived. You follow the link and the bid reads, \"I am not in Mexico, but...\" You take a moment to look over the profile anyway. Maybe you even write a friendly note to the bidder. But you must decline the bid.



Ten minutes later, you get another email. You click. This looks like a good bid. The person has relevant experience and offers a fair price. You click through to the bidder\'s profile to find that he lives in Canada. \"Huh?\" you think, and again decline.



Same thing happens a third time. This time, the bidder writes that she \'would like to explain to you that your descrimination on the basis of geography is unprofessional...\'

You decline the \'bid.\'



From the fourth notice on, you are not as anxious to view incoming bids. So you let a few pile up.



Now, the phone rings. It is a translator calling from Spain. You explain the job requirement and hang up.



Then, you get forwarded an email from the sales department. Someone has sent a resume to \'sales@yourcompany.com\' because they found that email address on the website you listed at ProZ.com. You realize that now, not only you, but several people in your office, are being inconvenienced.



You write a brief note to ProZ.com staff to complain.



--------------



It takes work to find the right bidder. So what!? That\'s what the agency is being paid for, OR? Whining about having to look through offers, and they get away with it???




How about the bidders who sift through job announcements, which are not worth looking at? (See the many forum postings to that point. \"Bidders must live HereOrThere\" is not a very constructive criterium. So, people ignore what makes no sense!). MOST job announcement on the German-English site are awash with mistakes, some of them very funny. Then I waste some more time looking at the \"agency\"-website, just to find that even the titles on the navigation bar are misspelled.




How about the translator\'s time, having to sift through that kind of garbage? My email box tends to fill up with all kinds of inquiries too. I am not complaining about that. It\'s business, part of it pays, and then there is the rest.



I agree with every posting, which says: \"Professionalism must be maintained on both sides.\" It is a basic rule of fairness! Personally, I am also partial to people who make sense.


All you agents out there, thinking that you are \"on the other side\" (in relation to translators): If you go too far to the other side, you might fall off a cliff!




[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-04-13 17:07 ]


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