Nicole Schnell United States Local time: 14:45 Member English to German + ...
To me, such details are highly important
Nov 28, 2011
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Basically the core information which can be gained through the BB is "free", as one can even view it even without being logged in.
And if someone wants to know the rating of a potential agency client, the names of the posters are IMHO of secondary importance.
And that is the reason why I happily pay for such services. Because it allows me to distinguish between:
- "I did a small proofreading job for this company, and they paid the 23 dollars on time, yayyy!! Rating 5!!! "
vs.
- "I am pleased to say that this is one of the most professional clients I have ever encountered in my highly specialized field. Brilliant cooperation. Highly recommendable. Rating 5."
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MariusV Lithuania Local time: 00:45 English to Lithuanian + ...
disagree
Nov 28, 2011
Nicole Schnell wrote:
MariusV wrote:
BB on Proz.com was one (today actually remained the only) thing to still "attract" me back to Proz with free membership. Because BB "database" was quite rich, there were posts of other service providers visible (contacted many of them directly to ask for their personal opinion and experiences about one or another outsource). However, to pay 120 USD per year for Proz.com membership (as it intended to be after the changes mentioned) just for actually being able to check the BB a couple of times per month (I already forgot the date when I received a job via Proz.com, without counting peanut rate jobs, "requests for potential cooperation", and other semi-spam), is far far too much. Esp. having in mind that there are many competing similar databases (and they are growing, not even worse than BB today) for the cost several times less than BB. Like Paymentpracticesnet where the annual fee is 15-20 USD (I do not even remember the exact amount as it is so insignificantly small, that I do not even bother).
Marius, who, according to your opinion is making all those services possible in the first place? It's the paying members, right? I pay USD 300 every year for my membership at ProZ.com, not USD 120. The access to all databases is priceless. There is no reason to complain about any shortcomings in services if you don't want to spend a cent for the aforementioned. Also, please do not complain about the peanut jobs. Get some decent and paid membership, and you will receive the good stuff. We can not keep complaining about outsourcers who want top-notch services for nothing or a cent, as long as we don't acknowledge that services require some funding.
According to my opinion all those services are made possible by those who make the BB posts and entries (at least on the basis of the facts and logic that we hold the responsibility on what we post on BB, i.e. the duty, so we have then our right). This can be done both by paying and non-paying members (not only paying members). Then those entries (received for free) are sold to paying members.
The second issue is not if you spend or not on a certain service. It is about if it is WORTH to spend on it. The situation at your side might probably be different (as you deal with other language pairs). And I am not complaining about peanut jobs, nor complaining at all. Just mentioned the fact that for my language pairs during the recent 24 months there were no serious jobs, just all those "peanuts". And during those 24 months I still had a paid membership and later it expired (I became a non-paying members). That means your "moral" is irrelevant here. The only useful thing remaining was that BB (with one very good feature - to be able to see the poster of the entry and to contact him/her asking about his/her personal experiences with a certain outsourcer). But as long as it will become the privilege only of the paying members soon, makes no more sense even to have a free Proz.com membership where the same ("blue board" info can be obtained for 20 USD of so from PaymentPractices.net)...This is what I wanted to tell Jared. And this is ONLY my personal opinion.
[Edited at 2011-11-28 23:06 GMT]
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Nicole Schnell United States Local time: 14:45 Member English to German + ...
No.
Nov 28, 2011
MariusV wrote:
Nicole Schnell wrote:
MariusV wrote:
BB on Proz.com was one (today actually remained the only) thing to still "attract" me back to Proz with free membership. Because BB "database" was quite rich, there were posts of other service providers visible (contacted many of them directly to ask for their personal opinion and experiences about one or another outsource). However, to pay 120 USD per year for Proz.com membership (as it intended to be after the changes mentioned) just for actually being able to check the BB a couple of times per month (I already forgot the date when I received a job via Proz.com, without counting peanut rate jobs, "requests for potential cooperation", and other semi-spam), is far far too much. Esp. having in mind that there are many competing similar databases (and they are growing, not even worse than BB today) for the cost several times less than BB. Like Paymentpracticesnet where the annual fee is 15-20 USD (I do not even remember the exact amount as it is so insignificantly small, that I do not even bother).
Marius, who, according to your opinion is making all those services possible in the first place? It's the paying members, right? I pay USD 300 every year for my membership at ProZ.com, not USD 120. The access to all databases is priceless. There is no reason to complain about any shortcomings in services if you don't want to spend a cent for the aforementioned. Also, please do not complain about the peanut jobs. Get some decent and paid membership, and you will receive the good stuff. We can not keep complaining about outsourcers who want top-notch services for nothing or a cent, as long as we don't acknowledge that services require some funding.
According to my opinion all those services are made possible by those who make the BB posts and entries (at least on the basis of the facts and logic that we hold the responsibility on what we post on BB, i.e. the duty, so we have then our right). This can be done both by paying and non-paying members (not only paying members). Then those entries (received for free) are sold to paying members.
The second issue is not if you spend or not on a certain service. It is about if it is WORTH to spend on it. The situation at your side might probably be different (as you deal with other language pairs). And I am not complaining about peanut jobs, nor complaining at all. Just mentioned the fact that for my language pairs during the recent 24 months there were no serious jobs, just all those "peanuts". And during those 24 months I still had a paid membership and later it expired (I became a non-paying members). That means your "moral" is irrelevant here.
This has nothing to do with "moral". I do prefer the term "business ethics", though. You do not gain any "shareholdership" by contributing to any forums or by adding entries to the BB. Please note that I never, ever use the job board and by setting my rates and having my notifications filtered (a ProZ.com service), I never get to see any of those fascinating peanut jobs that everybody is ranting about. Good jobs are never advertised. Yet my entire clientele results from ProZ, be it agencies, direct clients (!) or - and this is the most precious factor - recommendations from colleagues from the KudoZ forum. That's where I got my largest and long-term clients from. Networking!
So, if you are not willing to invest in your business, how can you possibly expect any return?
Fixed a quote[Edited at 2011-11-28 23:30 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-11-28 23:31 GMT]
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John Fossey Canada Local time: 17:45 Member (2008) French to English
Cost-benefit ratio?
Nov 29, 2011
MariusV wrote:
It is about if it is WORTH to spend on it.
How much is it worth to avoid losing payment for one $300 job per year, by finding out from the BB that a potential client never pays their translators? I'm sure I've avoided such losses and more by checking the BB every time I get an inquiry from a new client.
[Edited at 2011-11-29 01:19 GMT]
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Nicole Schnell United States Local time: 14:45 Member English to German + ...
Exactly.
Nov 29, 2011
John Fossey wrote:
MariusV wrote:
It is about if it is WORTH to spend on it.
How much is it worth to avoid losing payment for one $300 job per year, by finding out from the BB that a potential client never pays their translators? I'm sure I've avoided such losses and more by checking the BB every time I get an inquiry from a new client.
[Edited at 2011-11-29 01:19 GMT]
The ProZ.com staff will attend to you personally. Priceless.
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MariusV Lithuania Local time: 00:45 English to Lithuanian + ...
...
Nov 30, 2011
John Fossey wrote:
MariusV wrote:
It is about if it is WORTH to spend on it.
How much is it worth to avoid losing payment for one $300 job per year, by finding out from the BB that a potential client never pays their translators? I'm sure I've avoided such losses and more by checking the BB every time I get an inquiry from a new client.
[Edited at 2011-11-29 01:19 GMT]
I can tell a long story about BB "reliability" and how even Proz deleted my BB post text where I just wrote (stated the fact) that the outsourcer (banned from Proz long ago for non-payments) that I had to use a debt collector to recover a lump amount for an invoice more than 1 year old. In my opinion, Proz demonstrated an approach in favour to that banned notorious non-payer instead of my good will to inform about the FACTS other colleagues. Believe me, I have my own reasons to have my own opinion, and these reasons are are not taken from the air.
If you think it is worth to spend 300 USD for a service where the same (or even better) is available elsewhere for 15-20 USD, this is your right. But I believe I know my own situation much better than you do.
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MariusV Lithuania Local time: 00:45 English to Lithuanian + ...
...
Nov 30, 2011
Nicole Schnell wrote:
MariusV wrote:
Nicole Schnell wrote:
MariusV wrote:
BB on Proz.com was one (today actually remained the only) thing to still "attract" me back to Proz with free membership. Because BB "database" was quite rich, there were posts of other service providers visible (contacted many of them directly to ask for their personal opinion and experiences about one or another outsource). However, to pay 120 USD per year for Proz.com membership (as it intended to be after the changes mentioned) just for actually being able to check the BB a couple of times per month (I already forgot the date when I received a job via Proz.com, without counting peanut rate jobs, "requests for potential cooperation", and other semi-spam), is far far too much. Esp. having in mind that there are many competing similar databases (and they are growing, not even worse than BB today) for the cost several times less than BB. Like Paymentpracticesnet where the annual fee is 15-20 USD (I do not even remember the exact amount as it is so insignificantly small, that I do not even bother).
Marius, who, according to your opinion is making all those services possible in the first place? It's the paying members, right? I pay USD 300 every year for my membership at ProZ.com, not USD 120. The access to all databases is priceless. There is no reason to complain about any shortcomings in services if you don't want to spend a cent for the aforementioned. Also, please do not complain about the peanut jobs. Get some decent and paid membership, and you will receive the good stuff. We can not keep complaining about outsourcers who want top-notch services for nothing or a cent, as long as we don't acknowledge that services require some funding.
According to my opinion all those services are made possible by those who make the BB posts and entries (at least on the basis of the facts and logic that we hold the responsibility on what we post on BB, i.e. the duty, so we have then our right). This can be done both by paying and non-paying members (not only paying members). Then those entries (received for free) are sold to paying members.
The second issue is not if you spend or not on a certain service. It is about if it is WORTH to spend on it. The situation at your side might probably be different (as you deal with other language pairs). And I am not complaining about peanut jobs, nor complaining at all. Just mentioned the fact that for my language pairs during the recent 24 months there were no serious jobs, just all those "peanuts". And during those 24 months I still had a paid membership and later it expired (I became a non-paying members). That means your "moral" is irrelevant here.
This has nothing to do with "moral". I do prefer the term "business ethics", though. You do not gain any "shareholdership" by contributing to any forums or by adding entries to the BB. Please note that I never, ever use the job board and by setting my rates and having my notifications filtered (a ProZ.com service), I never get to see any of those fascinating peanut jobs that everybody is ranting about. Good jobs are never advertised. Yet my entire clientele results from ProZ, be it agencies, direct clients (!) or - and this is the most precious factor - recommendations from colleagues from the KudoZ forum. That's where I got my largest and long-term clients from. Networking!
So, if you are not willing to invest in your business, how can you possibly expect any return?
Fixed a quote[Edited at 2011-11-28 23:30 GMT]
[Edited at 2011-11-28 23:31 GMT]
I think there is not only "business ethics", but elementary ethics too. And that means that if you have a different opinion based on your different situation, it still does not mean that others might not have the right to express their own opinions. And even if these opinions do not match, there is no need to abuse the terms like "business ethics", esp. when those have nothing to do with business.
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TransAfrique United Kingdom Local time: 22:45 Member (2011) Japanese to English
Bug?
Nov 30, 2011
There's just one small problem: the names have suddenly vanished on Blue Board records I paid for before the change came into effect. It says "You have purchased full access to this record," but the names say "Access restricted" now.
Doesn't really bother me, but it's something the Proz team should look into anyway.
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Jessica Noyes United States Local time: 17:45 Member Spanish to English + ...
names of those who contribute to BB
Nov 30, 2011
Having been on the site for a few years, I have come to "know" certain members from their posts and articles. When I check a BB rating, I look at the names of those who contributed them to see if they are those of persons I have come to trust. I know this is subjective, but I value the views of long-standing participants whose name and ideas I am familiar with over those of "strangers."
I imagine this also protects us to a small extent if we are doing translation work for people who are not proz members. If they see a bad rating from us on the BB, they have no idea who sent it, and will not harrass us to try to get us to change it.
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Jeff Whittaker United States Local time: 17:45 Member (2002) Spanish to English + ...
Changes to BlueBoard
Nov 30, 2011
I support limiting details to paid members.
The problem is that there are unscrupulous people who use this data to their advantage.
Sample BB Entry:
Company: WeTranslateEverything
John Smith: Excellent and very professional company. I have worked for them for years and they always pay on time and offer large projects.
Larry Jones (who does not know John Smith) sees this entry and Mr. Smith's rates on his profile and sends an e-mail to the company:
Dear WeTranslateEverything,
My good colleague, Mr. John Smith, recommended that I send you my resume. I have worked with him for several years. My rates are (rate -.02 lower than Mr. Smith's).
or even worse:
Dear WeTranslateEverything,
I have a new e-mail address. In the future, please send all translation projects and paypal payments to johnsmith at freeemail dot com
[Edited at 2011-11-30 21:07 GMT]
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Tom in London United Kingdom Local time: 22:45 Member (2008) Italian to English
Excellent point
Dec 1, 2011
I approve of this innovation. It shows that Proz.com is being responsive to some of the comments about BB that have been made recently.
Proz membership continues to be an excellent investment at a very reasonable price.
[Edited at 2011-12-01 08:40 GMT]
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The changes announced in this thread have been applied already
Dec 1, 2011
Hello,
I just want to let you know that the changes announced in this thread have been applied already.
TransAfrique wrote:
There's just one small problem: the names have suddenly vanished on Blue Board records I paid for before the change came into effect. It says "You have purchased full access to this record," but the names say "Access restricted" now.
Doesn't really bother me, but it's something the Proz team should look into anyway.
Thanks for reporting this. This is indeed a bug, and has been reported to site developers. It should be fixed soon.
Please let me know if you spot any other possible bug.
Best regards,
Alejandro
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I just wanted to let you know that the bug reported above has been fixed. All non-members should still have access to all Blue Board records they purchased access to.
Best regards,
Alejandro
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TransAfrique United Kingdom Local time: 22:45 Member (2011) Japanese to English
Thanks
Dec 1, 2011
Great. Thanks for the prompt response.
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