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banning of job posters...
Thread poster: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:55
Member (2004)
English to Italian
May 22, 2002

the recent abusive behaviour and exploitation of the Proz.com site by unscrupolous individuals only confirm the need of a much stricter policing of the job section... tighter controls should be implemented by Henry to prevent this kind of situation happening again. It does no good to the site. And Henry, please do not lock this thread!



Giovanni

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-22 18:07 ]


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Marta Goc  Identity Verified
Local time: 18:55
Polish to English
+ ...
Responsibility and due diligence May 22, 2002

Giovanni,



We take reports of any system abuse seriously. System abuse should be reported to http://www.ProZ.com staff via Support Requests.



As Henry has mentioned in his earlier posts we have improved the job posting system in the recent months by requiring the outsourcers to include their information. The outsourcer has the option to hide that information.

The Job Posting system now recognizes Agencies/Outsoursers who are registered ProZ.com members. We added the Blue Board link to job postings as a tool for members to easily access Agency Ranking (if they are listed and/or ranked) and another link that allows any member to add an Outsourcer that is not already listed.



ProZ.com Staff is also evaluating different methods that could be used to improve the quality of jobs posted on the site.



However, we strongly believe that it is also a responsibility of any job seaker to evaluate every job posting according to his/hers level of expectations.



Before accepting an assignment from any Agency we recommend that you ask for full contact information, make a phone call, ask for the name of a couple of translators, who have worked forthem before, write to the TCR list or similar lists, check the Blue Board.



We invite sharing consturctive ideas that could help to improve the quality of jobs posted on www.ProZ.com site.



Marta





[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-22 18:51 ]


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Antonella Andreella  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 03:55
German to Italian
+ ...
Well, May 22, 2002

I agree with you... something must be done, above all because it really spoils the image of this site, but I don\'t think banning is a good idea, nevertheless job posters of these last weeks are really depressive...

low rates, low profile jobs, low profile outsourcers, small jobs

But, but, but I don\'t think finding the right solution is that easy.

Why don\'t we all make some proposals\'





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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:55
Member (2004)
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER
Sure, Marta... May 22, 2002

I agree that the system has been improved, but unfortunately there is still the possibility for the job poster to adopt false identities and keep abusing it.



Giovanni


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Eva Blanar  Identity Verified
Hungary
Local time: 03:55
English to Hungarian
+ ...
Abuse is unavoidable May 22, 2002

there shall be simply certain limits to it(some \"acceptability levels\").

I think Henry tackled the issue in the best possible way and we ought to support him and the site in their efforts.


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Steffen Pollex  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:55
English to German
+ ...
What is this about? Can you be more concrete? May 23, 2002

[quote]

On 2002-05-22 18:06, guarnieri wrote:

\"the recent abusive behaviour and exploitation of the Proz.com site by unscrupolous individuals only confirm the need of a much stricter policing of the job section... tighter controls should be implemented by Henry to prevent this kind of situation happening again.\"



Sorry, Giovanni, I really do not get any point in what you are trying to say or to achieve by spreading these commonplaces, claiming outsourcers in general to abuse the site, crying out for \"tighter controls\" and so on, not saying anything concrete. Isn\'t it that, after you consider to take a job placed on the site, you should show common sense as in any business relationship, get in direct contact with the outsourcer, collect all details necessary,analyze and then reconsider whether to do the job or not, whether you can trust the outsourcer or not? There\'s nothing special as to jobs acquired through ProZ compared to jobs acquired the conventional way. The risk of getting cheated is in no way bigger or less here than there. Neither is the level of risk awareness and responsibility you are supposed to apply. Please, consider ProZ an additional, strictly voluntary source of occasional extra work, not as a tool for passing over professional responsibility to others.



Sincerely

Steffen

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-23 07:12 ]


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:55
Member (2004)
English to Italian
TOPIC STARTER
Concrete proof... May 23, 2002

Hi Steffen,



Herewith something more \"concrete\"... see this thread locked by Henry...



http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&eid_c=16588&topic=2929&forum=23&5



Giovanni


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Steffen Pollex  Identity Verified
Local time: 03:55
English to German
+ ...
Yeah, this is concrete... May 23, 2002

...and of the kind which shouldn\'t appear on the site. Thank you, Giovanni for clarification! But, anyway, I still think you overdid it. There\'s no need to make such a noise about one single aut of, maybe, thousands of outsourcers in a way that makes one think you claim them all at once to be jerks. This is the way one could understand your posting without further details.

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CLS Lexi-tech
Local time: 21:55
Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...
The potential for abuse is there and is not endemic to Proz.com: outsourcers to be paying members May 23, 2002

I had previously suggested that outsourcers be made to pay, as bidders do, either in $ or in Browniz. How do outsourcers get Browniz? I don\'t know but ways could be found, such as giving them Browniz if they post their information.

After all they are getting a service and they should pay: what\'s 60$ a year for an agency, or even 120$? Just think how much one would pay for an add in a newspaper. And people that go \"head hunting\" have to pay the person doing the hunting and Proz.com is providing them with this service for free.

This would certainly prevent fly-by-night agencies or fake identities, don\'t you think?



paola l m

(also wearing my Lexi-tech cap)


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:55
SITE FOUNDER
Let me be very clear: You are on your own May 23, 2002

This person is the first example of a person announcing his intention to use the site in a fraudulent manner. I posted the exchange so that everyone may be aware that this type of person exists.



Giovanni, I think you were one of the people who in the past supporting the idea of \"demanding\" certain contact information from people. Now here is a man promising that he will lie. Furthermore, he is \"smart\" enough to post jobs via friends, making it difficult to block him on the basis of IP address.



We are doing what we can. And if we catch him in the act, the police will handle him, and we won\'t have to. But frankly, we may not catch him.



I have said it before, and I will say it again: the site does not, will not, and can not guarantee that every person who uses it is honest. (Think of ProZ.com as a phone book or classified ad!) You must exercise all the caution you normally do when qualifying outsourcers.



Or, put differently, those of us running the staff are not your parents, and we are not your chaperons. On the dates you arrange, you are on your own. Use your judgement!


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bochkor
Local time: 21:55
English to German
+ ...
Make agencies pay, too! May 23, 2002

Well, this time I do agree with Henry and especially with Paola who said that making agencies pay the modest sum of $60 or $120 would filter out the dishonest and cheap agencies, at least somewhat.



BrownieZ for agencies are not really necessary, only for the purpose of equal treatment with translators (should there be an uproar), because BrownieZ and KudoZ both compensate the participant for some translation work done, which project managers are mostly unable (don\'t speak any languages) or unwilling (no time) to do.



Although I\'m still for requiring agencies not to hide their info they are now required to give to ProZ, but I have understood that currently ProZ is against it, plus I also think that we translators should use extreme caution, as well. Me personally, I take potentially fraudulent agencies probably more seriously in my everyday life, than terrorists. Now attack me for this statement, but this is just how cautious one should be!



And making them pay would really result in agencies of higher quality for us to deal with. So what do you think, Henry?


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 21:55
SITE FOUNDER
making agencies pay May 23, 2002

We are now discussing, also on the moderator list, the idea of having agencies pay to post. This would reduce but not eliminate the incidence of undesirable posting. The question is whether or not the improved filtering would outweigh the loss in job flow.



My question to the community is this: are you sure you want us to block access to people who can\'t pay by credit card (the only instantaneous method)? Even if the fee were only $1 (and it would be more), the number of jobs passed will surely drop, due to the fact that many people do not have access to credit cards (think of project managers who are not authorized to use a company card.)



Thoughts?


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Jane Lamb-Ruiz  Identity Verified
French to English
+ ...
Payment by agencies for access to posting May 23, 2002

I think its an excellent partial weed-out tool. Why not let them pay by check also {if they can do a check in dollars) and by bank transfer when possible. Bank transfer can only be with whichever is your correspondent banks in the various countries. That somewhat enlarges the payment field. Also, if agencies are serious about posting here, as the translators are about participating and being in a database, they would be willing to pay a yearly membership fee for the right to post. That way, project managers would get permission from their bosses or accounting department. I think payment by agencies would winnow out considerably the chaff, which would go a long way towards reducing the tensions on this site. Their might be an initial drop in income but the serious posting agencies would stay in the game. Also, by improving quality this way, proz.com could advertise to agencies through target opt-in emails etc. Time for growth, time for expansion, time to weed out boys and girls from the men and women! Change for the better is always good.

I am perfectly willing to contribute to this progress in whatever way I can. The increase in income to proz could be considerable if handled properly.



Cheers,

Jane


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bochkor
Local time: 21:55
English to German
+ ...
Reply to Henry May 23, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-05-23 14:34, Henry wrote:

My question to the community is this: are you sure you want us to block access to people who can\'t pay by credit card (the only instantaneous method)? Even if the fee were only $1 (and it would be more), the number of jobs passed will surely drop, due to the fact that many people do not have access to credit cards (think of project managers who are not authorized to use a company card.)



Thoughts?





No, I wouldn\'t limit payment methods to credit card only. But I would certainly ask for it in a yearly membership form, never in a $1 per posting form. This way a project manager would have to run to his boss only once, asking him to pay the yearly membrship, as ProZ is an essential tool for the agency. The boss would think \"okay, 30 bucks no big deal, I\'ll do it\" and the door is open for further increases in the coming years, once the fish has bitten.



So from a business standpoint I would maybe ask for only $30 the first year, in order to see their reaction. Then next year I would increase it to $60 and the year after to $120 for agencies.



Regarding loss, if you go easy on them and start them off with only $30 for the first year\'s agency membership (even pointing out to them, what a bargain they\'ve got compared to the translators!), you will only weed out the kind of worthless agencies, which we\'ve been complaining about since Adam and Eve. Of course, if you get rough and ask for $120 right away, then it really might happen that we\'d lose some good agencies. So easy is the keyword!

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-05-23 15:55 ]

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Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 03:55
Italian to English
How far do you go on your first date? May 23, 2002

Just a couple of thoughts on people you meet at Henry\'s place (without a chaperon).



A limit on first-time outsourcers is probably a good idea. It might be most workable if framed in terms of a maximum number of words for a first posting rather than a fee.



After all, it\'s not a great idea to take on a huge job from, or outsource a huge job to, someone you don\'t know.



Also, ProZ could offer incentives (BrowniZ, membership upgrades, Caribbean cruises) to translators and/or outsourcers who report back on how the job actually went.



Outsourcers could then get enhanced reliability ratings and translators could get outsourcer merit points for accuracy, specialist knowledge, delivery on time etc.



FWIW



Giles


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