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What is the (KudoZ) reliability ratio?
Thread poster: Lise Smidth

Lise Smidth  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 14:16
German to Danish
+ ...
Jun 19, 2002

while looking for something else in the FAQ i noticed the \"reliability ratio\" - is this a new feature? where does it appear? profile page? KudoZ?



BTW how many members are needed to open a new language specific forum?



regards

lise


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 08:16
SITE FOUNDER
Reliability ratio does not appear anywhere yet Jun 19, 2002

This is a new feature we will be rolling out. I got ahead of myself writing the FAQs before working out all the bugs.



My advice to all for now is to make sure your KudoZ answers are as accurate as possible, and when you are not sure, use the \"confidence meter\" to say so. This will give you a high \"reliability rating\", which will help you in placement thoughout the site, including KudoZ, jobs, etc.

- - - - -



And for opening a language-specific forum, there is no strict requirement. Just ask (Damara, with one speaker, probably won\'t fly).


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Jacek Krankowski  Identity Verified
English to Polish
+ ...
http://www.proz.com/?sp=gpa Jun 19, 2002

But Henry must be fine-tuning it since it seems not to be available now.

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Bob Kerns  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:16
Member (2002)
German to English
Still to be rolled out Jun 19, 2002

Jacek, as Henry explained the feature has not yet been rolled out.

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Lise Smidth  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 14:16
German to Danish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
thanks - and new question... Jun 19, 2002

hi,



sounds like a good idea - this new feature



Quote:


And for opening a language-specific forum, there is no strict requirement. Just ask (Damara, with one speaker, probably won\'t fly).





- what would be the proper place to ask? - a forum for swedish, norwegian and danish would be welcomed by quite a few

-> http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&eid_c=24477&topic=3130&forum=13&19

I guess it would be possible to find a moderator, who speaks at least one of these languages?



regards

lise

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-06-19 18:16 ]

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-06-19 18:18 ]

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Andrea Bullrich  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:16
Member
English to Spanish
Reliability / Suggestion Jun 19, 2002

I also think a reliability ratio may be misleading, but not more than KudoZ are. We all know there are a number of undeserved KudoZ, and perfectly correct and reliable answers that don\'t get any. It\'s sort of a fact of life (people make mistakes), and it\'s a matter of taking both the KudoZ and the ratio with a pinch of salt.

I do see another problem with the ratio: people are now contributing answers either when the question has already been closed or knowing (and saying) that another answer deserves the points, just because they want to help by adding more information. These answers would lower the person\'s reliability, and this would probably stop some people from submitting such answers. Would it be possible to include a different type of contribution, or a kind of answer that is not valid for points and would then not influence the reliability ratio?

Maybe I\'m thinking too far ahead, but it\'s just an idea...

Andrea


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Roberto Cavalcanti  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 09:16
Member (2003)
English to Portuguese
Reliability ratio a desirable but dangerous feature Jun 19, 2002

I agree completly with TAIFUN.

Sometimes I miss a feature like this, specially when you see someone aswering a question in such a way to mislead the asker and get the points, but the operational features in this site are so complex and intrincated that I doubt this reliability ratio will be faithfull.


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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 08:16
SITE FOUNDER
set confidence bar low and your rating wont suffer noticeably Jun 19, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-06-19 18:35, AIM wrote:

I do see another problem with the ratio: people are now contributing answers either when the question has already been closed or knowing (and saying) that another answer deserves the points, just because they want to help by adding more information. These answers would lower the person\'s reliability, and this would probably stop some people from submitting such answers. Would it be possible to include a different type of contribution, or a kind of answer that is not valid for points and would then not influence the reliability ratio?

Maybe I\'m thinking too far ahead, but it\'s just an idea...

Andrea





(Note: the point about the terminology is well-taken. This is not about reliability, it is about *KudoZ* reliability. So I will from now on call it KRR, for KudoZ reliability rating.)



No, you are not thinking too far ahead. That is why there is a confidence bar. If you indicate low confidence and your answer winds up being regarded by the system as incorrect, your KRR goes down only 1/5 of what it would it you had indicated full confidence. In other words, if you are not sure, just say you are not sure.



By the same token, if you indicate low confidence and your answer is regarded by the system as correct, your \"lucky guess\" will not boost your KRR much. So if you are sure about your answer, it will behoove you to indicate full confidence.

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athena22  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:16
Member
English
+ ...
Don't like this idea AT ALL Jun 19, 2002

Henry,

My reaction to this new KRR idea is \"Oh, ick.\" I hear what you are saying about the confidence rating, and I generally try to remember to use it when I answer. But the whole thing seems punitive as was already said above. I am 100% against it. Here is my reasoning:



Kudoz is a voluntary way to be helpful to someone else; I have found people\'s suggestions to be invaluable. Please note the following:



1)Often I wish that I could split the points, as more than one answer is good.



2) Often the discussion helps me choose the correct answer and the wrong answers--plus other translators\' negative reactions--help me sort through things to reach my own decision.



3)Sometimes I ask for a suggestion for a better wording when I\'m stuck \"between\" languages, so to speak, and feel that I am coming up with an inelegant solution. In that case, all or most of the solutions are pretty valid, and one of them will suit the style and language level of the document the best. (Or else, one of them will steer me to an \"Oh yeah!\" moment of my own, with an even better solution.)



4) And what about Brit. English vs. Am. English? I generally translate into Am. English, as that is my native tongue, but every once in a while someone will ask me to try to mostly put something in Brit. English (even with my telling them that this is a dubious proposition). In the Kudoz answers, you will have seen that we often say that something is Brit or Am English, particularly if it is a slang or non-standard usage. If there are more American English translators using Proz--and therefore more agreements for the Am. English solution--or if the asker is speaking British English (to choose two possible examples; they could be switched in the other direction, too) and chooses a Brit. English solution, should those who make suggestions in \"their\" brand of English be penalized?



To repeat, is it fair to punish those who try to help in these cases?



5)I like to be helpful, but there are days that I am on more than others. And if I\'m going to get slapped on the wrists, even mildly, I won\'t want to risk it:it just doesn\'t feel good. Life is too full of rejection anyway; it\'s not worth it.



I think you are trying to fix a smallish problem, one that may have arisen partly, I believe when Proz began charging non-paying members for bids and allowing KudoZ to be used as payment towards bids. The solution that you are proposing will negate much of the benefit of Kudoz, IMHO, and is fraught with potential problems, a few of which I noted above. I know that you are always trying to improve the site, and overall I very much like what you have done. But if this is a trial balloon, please allow me to burst it without hurting your feelings!





[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-06-20 16:45 ]

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-06-21 06:40 ]


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Adriana Esposito  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 14:16
Member (2014)
English to Italian
+ ...
A low confidence ratio doesn't help the asker to choose Jun 19, 2002

No, you are not thinking too far ahead. That is why there is a confidence bar. If you indicate low confidence and your answer winds up being regarded by the system as incorrect, your KRR goes down only 1/5 of what it would it you had indicated full confidence. In other words, if you are not sure, just say you are not sure.



By the same token, if you indicate low confidence and your answer is regarded by the system as correct, your \"lucky guess\" will not boost your KRR much. So if you are sure about your answer, it will behoove you to indicate full confidence.

[/quote]



I thought the idea, here, was mainly to help each other and this is what I like most about this site: the feeling I can count on somebody else when I have a problem. When I post a question, I do consider the level of confidence chosen by the answerer. If my question is - say - technical I will trust more somebody with a high confidence ratio. But with this kind of \"low-confidence-high-reliability\" system, setting the confidence ratio will just become a strategy to gain more reliability, rather than a way to indicate your knowledge in the field...


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Massimo Gaido  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:16
English to Italian
+ ...
ProZ is better than ProZac. Jun 19, 2002

I agree 100% with Athena, Andrea & Tayfun.........



The way Kudoz points are assigned is far from being perfect. The Kudoz reliability rating idea seems out of place in this context. You cannot assign a mathematical parameter like a number, or a percentage number, to identify an alleged reliability, when the methods that assign the Kudoz point are very empirical and do not follow any theory. At times I have been awarded Kudoz points when probably I did not deserve them, at times I did not get them when I did deserve them, and at times I awarded points to one colleague when 3 or 4 of them helped me to find what I was looking for, etc., etc. ...



I don\'t use this site to find jobs, but to interact with other translators. I am sure the KRR will reduce this interaction.



I LOVE THIS SITE. I have been using it for about two months and I think that ProZ can cure the “Translator Syndrome” much better than ProZac.



Until now..................



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Andrea Bullrich  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:16
Member
English to Spanish
GPA? Jun 20, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-06-19 22:52, MassimoMG wrote:

I agree 100% with Athena, Andrea & Tayfun.........





Oh, but I do think the ratio is a good idea, in a way. I think people may be afraid to hurt this ratio and refrain from making valuable contributions, and that\'s why I suggested a different type of answer (I realize it may complicate things too much, though). But on the other hand, I also think it will make other people think twice before answering... you know the type: \"Wait for other answers because I have no experience in this field\" (then why, why, why do you answer???)

Maybe GPA, as Evert said in another thread, is a better, less loaded name for it.

Cheers : )

Andrea

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Andrea Bullrich  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:16
Member
English to Spanish
The confidence bar Jun 20, 2002

Quote:


On 2002-06-19 22:10, AEsposito wrote:

... with this kind of \"low-confidence-high-reliability\" system, setting the confidence ratio will just become a strategy to gain more reliability...





Henry, I understand what you say about the confidence bar, but I agree with Adriana here. I wouldn\'t like to add helpful information and have to speculate how the confidence bar will help or hurt my KRR. And I wouldn\'t like to see my contribution with an \"I\'m guessing\" confidence bar above. But I must confess I\'m a bit like Athena, and I hardly ever look at the bar (in fact, for a long time I thought it was a bug on my screen!)



Andrea

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Henry Dotterer
Local time: 08:16
SITE FOUNDER
Dont worry about KRR too much Jun 20, 2002

Folks, this KRR stuff probably sounds more ominous than it is.



You know how there are some people who answer all questions in all pairs, and are always \"sure\"? This move will curtail that.



Most of the people posting here will not be affected much by the function. At any rate, we have decided (after moderator discussions, etc.) to give it a try. If you don\'t like it, bring this topic up again a month after it has gone live. If it is not working, we\'ll scrap it.


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 14:16
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...

MODERATOR
The confidens bar choice has to be ACTIVE Jun 20, 2002

Dear all,



I think there is much to the doubts being expressed above.

I think it would be unwise to design anything, that would influence the enthusiasm with which KudoZ answers are given.



I also see two weak points:



1. KRR is based on agrees, disagrees and a value based on the confidence bar position. I must confess (as did Andrea) \"..I\'m a bit like Athena, and I hardly ever look at the bar\".

There are two reasons for that:

I rarely (at least during the last 12 months) give an answer without having fairly solid proof, so the thought of judging my own confidence does not come to my mind. Therefore I believe 95% of my answers have the default value. (I think I have only a handful answers with \'full confidence\'). Another reason for forgetting using the bar is its programming.

In order to get it functional, IT MUST BE AN ACTIVE CHOICE, i.e. NO DEFAULT VALUE.

You cannot finish your answer without have made a confidence bar choice.

ALSO: The design of the bar is unclear. I still cannot tell the difference between \'full\' and \'guess\' (left? or right?).

Its value would improve enormously if its representation was vertical, i.e. \'full/high\' confidence would be just high instead of left/right.



2. Many good answers are not agreed/disagreed to at all and, if I understand KRR correctly, not considered at all. This is of cource a flaw but I cannot see how to solve that problem.



Mats





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