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Let\'s do away with agree and disagree
Thread poster: CLS Lexi-tech

CLS Lexi-tech
Local time: 09:33
Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...
Jun 24, 2002

I am terminally sick of all those Prozies who use the agree and disagree as a soapbox or pulpit or lectern or generally raised platform to act as teachers with a red pencil and a virtual strap. Who (pardon the dangling sentence, a sign of my dangling emotions at the moment) think they have a God-given right to part the saved from the rejects, the oracles from homo and femina sapiens, those who are in and those who are out.



I hereby propose formally to do away with agree and disagree. It is no longer used to help the asker but simply as an ego-lifter.



and now I have got to do some real work



paola l m



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schmurr  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:33
Italian to German
+ ...
it's a defense and a way of being polite Jun 24, 2002

How often an answer is slightly imprecise or has a typo! Instead of sending your own answer and robbing the points, you can elegantly agree with a respective comment.

And to disagree is our only weapon against those who plaster ProZ with wrong answers.


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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:33
Member (2004)
English to Italian
if it falls to be taken into account by everybody... :-) Jun 24, 2002

come on, Paola, cheer up! I saw the \"point of contention\" and it wasn\'t that bad! A negative, personal experience shouldn\'t lead to the dismissal of the whole peer-grading system, which is very useful. It is true that it can become a battlefield, but these days I rarely see big arguments going on (well, apart from when I peer-grade Tanuki\'s answers... ).



Ciao



G

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-06-24 14:07 ]


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Jacek Krankowski  Identity Verified
English to Polish
+ ...
Doing away will not help Jun 24, 2002

...as, in my opinion, KudoZ replies themselves can be used as a soapbox either (a) to show off or (b) to belittle those who were there first to answer. Agree/diagree, by its limited space and impossibility to add notes to me seems safer than waging wars through reply windows. During our powwow in Warsaw the other day, a request was voiced, however, to disactivate the agree/disagree function in the case of empty or insufficient profiles. Specifying (a)language pairs and (b) whether one does translations for a living and/or happens to have another profession was considered a minimum of \"active\" information required to be able to agree/disagree.

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Oleg Osipov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 17:33
English to Russian
+ ...
Cut them out Jun 24, 2002

Paola,

Do not let that upset you. Many of those who agree and disagree do not qualify for the vote. Take it easy.

Stepan


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CLS Lexi-tech
Local time: 09:33
Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
the cherry on the cake Jun 24, 2002

Giovanni,

I am perfectly cheerful as is in my nature (the glass is always half full for me)

This issue has been dragging on for some time. I think that agree and disagree functionality has contributed in no small measure to disharmony.

that\'s all



paola l m



[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-06-24 14:20 ]


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Mary Worby  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:33
Member
German to English
+ ...
Agree & disagree! Jun 24, 2002

Paola,



I can see your point that the peer grading functionality is one of the main causes of dissent in the site, but, on the other side of the coin, it is also one of the main sources of discussion on translation issues and of general conviviality and camaraderie. For every nasty comment that makes you want to throw something or somebody, there are dozens that offer helpful suggestions or warm wards. We need to be able to take the rough with the smooth.



I feel that by disabling the functionality we would be losing much more than we were gaining.



FWIW



Mary


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Russell Gillis  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:33
Spanish to English
It is a valuable tool Jun 24, 2002

As one who has been on the giving and receiving end of neutrals/disagrees, I think this is a very valuable tool for the asker.



As hard as it has been to swallow, there have been times when I misread the context and did not provide the correct answer. The asker may not know otherwise if it wasn\'t for these disagrees.



It has kept me humble to realize that my answers aren\'t always the most correct. At the same time, I have been able to give opinions when I know that the context has been misunderstood.



As far as the \"soapbox\" being referred to here, I think it is important to qualify an agree, neutral or disagree. To others it may appear to be \"showing off\", but many times a simple agree or disagree does not help the asker. They need to know why or why not the answer is the correct one.



Sometimes we have to remind ourselves that this is not a game (i.e. I deserved those points!!!). The people asking these questions are often submitting work which will have an impact on a company\'s international business. These are serious questions, and the asker deserves the best answer.



Well, I will get off my soapbox now and return to my normal activities...





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Gilda Manara  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 15:33
German to Italian
+ ...
agree and disagree Jun 24, 2002

Dear Paola,

let me say \"neutral\" to your suggestion - I don\'t think that the problem is in the peer-grading per se, the problem is in the persons who use it and how they use it; even if this function disappears (and personally I think it would be a pity, because it has its own usefulness), the persons that might have abused of it, using it as a whiplash against colleagues and not as a support for the asker to judge about the answer, will still intervene with answers where they will show the same unfriendly spirit. I am sure that to receive a disagree is bad enough - I personally have never given it to anybody, as far as I remember: when I think I have a better answer, I give it as an answer, or an alternative to those which are already there, that\'s all - but I do still think that the function is useful; discussions can sometimes be more \"flaming\" than usual, let\'s make an appeal to the self-control and fairness of professionals and colleagues, in order to make sure that they are never personal - and when we don\'t like them: non ti curar di lor...

Have a nice day, everybody



Gilda


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Mats Wiman  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 15:33
Member (2000)
German to Swedish
+ ...

MODERATOR
Dear Paola, for once I disagree with you Jun 24, 2002

and this is no ego-lifter i can assure you.



As very often Mary put it very well.



AND:



Have you forgotten the fierce discussions preceding the introduction of \'agree/disagree\'?



Rather: Criticize the abuser when they misuse the function, do not throw the baby out with the bathwater.



We cannot forbid knives only because they are used to kill.



Your perennial supporter.



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Silvina Beatriz Codina  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 11:33
Member (2002)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Cheer up, it is not worth it Jun 24, 2002

As a matter of fact, I was going to use Mats\' \"baby\" phrase, but he used it first...



I think this is not a problem of the agree/disagree tool, but rather of certain members of this useful site. The immense majority of ProZies are first-rate people, but there is a small percentage (let\'s say 1%), whose life must be so gloomy, that the only pleasure they can derive from it (apparently) is when they are able to belittle, humiliate and make life hell for other human beings. If they cannot use the agree/disagree tool to spread misery and pestilence in the world, they\'ll do it in the forums (as in fact some of them do), and if they don\'t have the forums, they\'ll do it in some other way, because evil is so incredibly creative.



I\'m afraid there is very little we can do about this; other than saying \"non me ne frega niente\" and get on with our lives.

[ This Message was edited by: on 2002-06-24 16:00 ]


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xxxwilliamson
Local time: 15:33
Dutch to English
+ ...
Right or Wrong Jun 24, 2002

Today a question at the level of the first grade of primary school was asked on Kudoz. I took the standard dictionary of the Dutch language and litarlly copied the definition from it. All the pros agreed with the other explanation. Makes you wonder about the validaty of entries in standard dictionaries or the criteria these pros base their judgement on (either one or the other). In this case common sense and the linguistic use of a child of 6 could be used also. Kudoz

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GILOU  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 15:33
Member (2002)
English to French
peergrading Jun 24, 2002

I think each peer has to grade answers with impartiality and not in a mean way. But if you reap a \'disagree\' among several \'agree\', the asker will choose your answer and a \'disagree\' can help you to justify your answer better so this system is not so bad if it doesn\'t turn into a \'coconut shy\' but remains a site in which each translator respects each other.

(excuse my bad English)


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CLS Lexi-tech
Local time: 09:33
Member (2004)
English to Italian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for the useful and impartial comments Jun 24, 2002

Surely I don\'t want to do away with agree and or disagrees. I for one use it very sparingly. There are other people who feel that as does a teacher in a primary school classroom, they have to grade and comment, tongue in cheek, or from the height of their knowledge every single answer. Why do they mix with us mortals, they still have to explain.

As I was saying, I see the usefulness of the functionality. Since you all seem in favour of agrees and disagrees, why do not all of us take upon themselves to reprimand those who abuse the function and use it to show off or put down rather than show the light to the asker?

Let\'s speak up people. If these \"disagreable\" prozies can dish it out, they can (or should) surely take it. Or, as my heavy-handed husband says, don\'t write a cheque that your a** can\'t cash.



Yours



paola l m



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Klaus Dorn
Local time: 17:33
German to English
+ ...
How about a points-scale? Jun 24, 2002

Instead of agree/disagree, how about a points system, whereby the others can agree on a scale from +5 to -5, and if it\'s negative, they can choose from reasons for the negative points, such as \"grammar\", \"spelling\", \"meaning\", etc. Of course, they will have to post their own suggestion separately and the window could allow such a suggestion to be made.

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