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Attempts to get a whole text translated via KudoZ
Thread poster: Ralf Lemster

Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:16
English to German
+ ...
Oct 13, 2001

A pattern seems to appear where members of the site effectively submit major parts of text by submitting all terms which are not blatantly obvious. This is particularly annoying when the profile of the submitter announces the sector the terms belong to as one of his/her fields of expertise, and quotes rock-bottom prices...



IMHO this is an abuse of the mutual service provided by the community. I am very happy to provide background information in addition to a suggested term, but frankly I don\'t fancy giving anyone a \"free ride\".



Does anyone have an idea as to how this can be rectified? The only idea I have is a friendly reminder by proz.com staff in cases where members report such a nuisance.


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Roomy Naqvy  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 17:46
English to Hindi
+ ...
KudoZ Abuse Oct 13, 2001

Please report KudoZ abuse to the ProZ staff and also to the Moderator of that language subcommunity. Kindly desist from writing directly to the asker.



Best wishes



Roomy Naqvy

Moderator EnglishGujarati
[addsig]


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:16
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
KudoZ abuse Oct 13, 2001

I wholeheartedly agree with this approach - can you tell me where to find information regarding the moderator (in this case, for the English-German community)?



Thanks, Ralf



Quote:


On 2001-10-13 10:10, roomynaqvy wrote:

Please report KudoZ abuse to the ProZ staff and also to the Moderator of that language subcommunity. Kindly desist from writing directly to the asker.



Best wishes



Roomy Naqvy

Moderator EnglishGujarati





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Sven Petersson  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 14:16
English to Swedish
+ ...
Freedom of speach Oct 13, 2001

Dear Ralf,



The opinions express by you unfortunately give me the painful feeling that you have totally failed to appreciate the innovative greatness inherent in the objective and implementation of ProZ.



One of the sub-objectives is to build the dictionary of all dictionaries. To exclude words, which you consider to be ”blatantly obvious”, would eliminate the possibility of bringing the word harvesting to a stage at which publication could be seriously considered.



It is your privilege not to give anybody a “free ride”, but you have no right to try to prevent fellow translators and lexicographers to work gratis for the good of others.



We all have to earn our daily bread. I specialise in three subject areas, but sometimes I have to accept jobs in other fields to earn enough. When this happens I feel no shame at all when asking a long string of terminology questions for that field. It all goes towards building the dictionary of all dictionaries!



I don’t believe in censorship. I don’t believe in book burning. I do believe in freedom of speech, unlimited freedom of speech.



ProZ is succeeding where all others have failed. Please don’t sabotage ProZ with immature selfish advice!



Sven.



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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:16
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Freedom of speech Oct 13, 2001

Dear Sven,

Thanks for your comments. Let me get a few things straight here:



I am more than willing to actively participate in furthering the KudoZ concept, without applying a quid-pro-quo approach, and without \"censoring\" anyone. We have met often enough on both sides of queries to know that this is true.



In particular, just like yourself, I am very happy to provide advice and background information beyond just providing a term, particularly when someone asks terms outside his or her particular field of expertise. This was not the case here.



What I do object to (and I reserve the right to do so) is when using others\' resources gets excessive - obviously, you and I may have a different conception of exactly what that means. The simple reason why I raised the objection is because at some point I felt frustrated - are you telling me to just go away in that case?



We may not agree, but to further free speech, let\'s try and keep the language to a moderate level (as in \"moderator\").



Hope to meet you on KudoZ again soon!

Regards, Ralf


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ttagir  Identity Verified
Local time: 15:16
Member (2002)
English to Russian
+ ...
Some KudoZ questions reflect strange things Oct 13, 2001

Dear all,



Possessing rather large experience with answering KudoZ, I see that

1. in some cases questions as simple as \"examination\" or \"test\" are posted by persons registered as a proven court translator with severe accreditations...

2. in some cases questions follow almost instantly a certain bid with a piece of text to be translated by a (pro???) bidder... so if one has not yet received or reviewed all job postings (e.g., due to tortoise internet connection), there is no reason to answer KudoZ first

3. some askers are so far to pretend to any professionalism that even cannot choose a correct and necessary answer...

4. sometimes absolutely goodwill attempts to advise the correct answers to the askers imply a very negative and somewhere furious reaction.



Some rather active askers have ... almost nothing on their pages (including the country they are from). Then one rather completely present in his/her page truns into, say a nude in front of dressed crowd... So, in addition to their freedom of asking anything, they seemingly hate others\' freedom to know whom are we speaking to. Note that to answer some questions means to perform a whoole investigation (or to recover a large unknown object via ... a couple of words, as in the Radon--Nikodim theorem.



I completely agree with the importance of KudoZ in the sense of possible creation of hyperdictoinaries (pls recall that once upon a time I already exposed on KudoZ pages the concept of a certain linguistic hyperspace which is a second order generalization of the hypertext concept), but if we will have this uncertain way of both choosing right answers and posting them, it will only describe very approximately, say an area of moment interests of crowd of very different people speaking different languages (sometime too poorly). I should recall that a very parge project of the superdictonary (225 laguages) is seeming does to its successful final phase. The work there was almost free, so for the creators of the dicitonary it was a big problem to find some translators of rare languages...



Finally, would not we turn all this thing into a new Babilon tower if will not create very certain rules and laws?



I also completely agree that the freedom of word is an important liberty asset. But would such a freedom be precious if it is realized as a right to see what are you hiding in your interior pocket?



Finally, I feel it is the place and time to say once more that Henry created a kind of new life in linguistics. In any case, we should try to help him and each other to preserve the goals and objectives of this very precious part in the information space existing alive and growing permanently.



Tagir Tagirov,

Moderator.



[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-10-13 16:59 ]


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Sharon Sarah Schmitz  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:16
English to German
Freedom of Speech? Oct 14, 2001

I don\'t see where freedom of speech is affected here. Posing a terminology question is not voicing an opinion. And we\'re not talking about translators accepting work outside their field of expertise, but about translators demonstrating an obviously severe lack of qualification within one of their self-proclaimed areas of specialization.



What is more harmful in building up a comprehensive terminology database, possibly furthering mutual understanding on a global scale: Temporarily restricting access in case of KudoZ system abuse, or helping to create a translation that may lack quality, thus enabling the translator responsible for the job to do the exact same thing ad infinitum?



The impact of a bad translation is not to be underestimated, as well as the impact of questions concerning starter-level vocabulary on a site that claims professionalism. If they take the time to check and by chance stumble across some negative examples, potential clients may start to wonder about the qualification level of all translators involved with ProZ.



I don\'t see any harm done by kids in love asking for the umpteenth time what \"I love you\" means in French or German or Spanish or whatever. My signals are at danger if a professional translator does the same.



Of course, sometimes it\'s hard to tell what\'s blatantly obvious. And sometimes (sometimes? you accept a job that was announced as \"computer translation\" and turns out to be a manual for some cryptic real estate management system



I dare say that good translators will be able to cope with such, even if it takes double the time than usual. But I, for one, expect from every professional to do their homework. This means: KudoZ should be a last resort, not a hammock, particularly if you can\'t handle a job within your own field of expertise.



To summarize: It\'s not the specific terms that had been asked, it\'s the amount of terms that had been asked and the pattern of letting others do one\'s own job for free.


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Robert Pranagal
Local time: 14:16
English to Polish
+ ...
What is KudoZ all about? Oct 14, 2001

Let us not forget that KudoZ is an opportunity to learn, to help each other, to share knowledge and expertise.



Actually, in the ProZ Overview it is stated:



\"In your work, when you come across a term or phrase that you don\'t understand, turn to your ProZ.com colleagues. KudoZ(tm) points make helping each other out fast and fun. Translators answer questions in exchange for KudoZ(tm) points. Earned KudoZ(tm) points are indicators of language expertise, and help boost a translator\'s exposure to translation jobs. \"



Where\'s the abuse??



Is it better to ask even a simplest of questions, or risk getting it wrong in the translation?



Personally, I can\'t imagine any mechanism to prevent what Ralph calls \'abuse\', that would not at the same time, harm other \'honest\' askers.



Besides, even if such mechanism existed, the \"abusers\" could log in as non-users and continue doing what they are doing...




[addsig]


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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 08:16
German to English
+ ...
Thank you, Sharon Oct 14, 2001

Major-league kudos to Sharon for speaking her mind.



Yes, \"aiding and abetting\" in the production of a bad translation by an unqualified translator affects all of us. Therefore, drawing attention to individuals and such practices as mentioned by Ralf is the honorable thing to do.



There is no restriction to free speech: these individuals are free to post any questions they like, but people like Ralf, for example, have every right to alert others to such cases.



PROZ is a community, or even a family; within a community or family it is customary to watch out over each other (as well as to sanction anyone who may harm the community or family).



If Ralf observes such goings-on and reports on them, that\'s fine. He is not restricting free speech, but those that criticize him are the ones that are, in fact, trying to limit free speech.

[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-10-15 10:59 ]


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Martin Schneekloth
English to German
+ ...
I absolutely agree with Ralf Oct 14, 2001

Something has to be said here. I received about 95 terminology questions from the same person about one day ago. Although you are supoposed to exchange ideas and questions on this site, common sense should still be a major requirement for anyone poarticipating in this exchange. I think it is absolutely rediculous for someone to send the same questions five times (and more) and to ask for every single term in the text. to be translated. Although I love to learn and to exchange ideas (as I am still new to translation with a little over three years as full-time in-house technical translator), I do not believe that abuse should be part of this exchange. Although everyone voicing their opinion in this forum has a point to make, we should all be able to agree that there has to be an opportunity for everyone to ask questions. Quite frankly, I do not have the time nor the patience to read 100 messages a day relating to someone else\'s translation job. In addition, this type of behavior takes time and attention away from other translators who might like an answer or two to their terminology questions. Please understand that I am not trying to offend anyone. I would just like to make clear that one\'s abuse of a system like this one can reduce the overall quality of such a system. So let us all try to be helpful and reasonable at the same time. Thanks

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Sven Petersson  Identity Verified
Sweden
Local time: 14:16
English to Swedish
+ ...
Summa cum laude Oct 14, 2001

Dear Robert,



You are a true ProZer!



Sven.


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Livia Bidoli
Local time: 14:16
English to Italian
+ ...
Right to choose to answer Oct 15, 2001

I\'m a new member o Proz so I\'m not so accostumed to the use of this resource in order to simplify my work, that now it\'s not so hard...just because I\'m approaching to translation from another point of view.

However I didn\'t ask to Proz so many terms, even when I had some difficulties, because I didn\'t intend to bore the others with my problems. I think that is the common behaviour of honest ( and shy people, but it doesn\'t mean that whoelse ask for more then , let\'s say, 3 terms contextualized into a phrase, is a sort of greedy person who exploit other translators.

I think we have all to remember how it is difficult to handle another language ( even ours)and that everytime we see a term posted to Proz, we can choose to answer or not, it\'s not compulsory, it depends on our will, the same will that will create dictionaries, communication among ourselves and the others, the only will that will bound us as human beings, and not those perfect people who believe to master some languages without other\'s help.

Livia


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Beate Lutzebaeck  Identity Verified
New Zealand
Local time: 01:16
Member
English to German
+ ...
Oct 15, 2001

I don\'t want to repeat all those arguments made by my colleagues, but a certain misconception still seems to linger on. This site is based on translators helping each other and this can only work if people are willing to help. Being inundated with (in my case) 165 emails is more likely to cause some colleagues, who initially indicated their willingness to help, to deactivate their \"help function\", since (as one colleague put it) their mail-boxes get clogged and important messages don\'t get through. In the interest of mutual help, it is vital that users exercise good judgement to avoid giving the impression of being abusers.

Cheers - Beate Lutzebaeck


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lcmolinari  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 08:16
Member
French to English
+ ...
Use Proz when all other sources have been exhausted Oct 16, 2001

While I do agree with many others on this topic that none of us is forced to answer questions and that we do so of our own free will, I also think that the volume of terms is sometimes astounding.



I fully agree with Sharon that posting a question on Proz should be a last resort for a professional translator and should not be done simply because they don\'t feel like opening a dictionary. I don\'t know how many times I have seen questions posted and all the answers cite as their source \"Simon & Schuster\'s\" or EuroDictAutom or a simple 2-second Google search. Or worse, questions that were asked before on Proz and the asker did not first search the glossaries or past questions.



Any translator should have these resources available to them and should use them before clogging the site with questions that can be solved by opening the most basic dictionary in their language pair.



I have also chosen not to receive notifications about questions because it has become too much. I don\'t think we should moderate this, but I do hope that members of the community can remember to do their homework before going to the Pros.


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Zenny Sadlon
Local time: 07:16
English to Czech
+ ...
"desist from writing directly to the asker"??? Oct 24, 2001

I respectfuly disagree. That approach is dehumanizing. I personally have had it with \"third party mediation\" for the simplest situations in which civilized people used to communicate with one another. Is it any wonder the kids feel rage and act on it? Nobody is paying any personal attention to anybody. Thus the Marxists prove their point: We\'re nothing but a web of commercially motivated transactions. Yuk!



I just got a \"Thank you, but not all [the text in the \'explanation\' space] was translated.\" This is how, prompted by the \'Add Comment\' button, I replied:



I thought one was supossed to ask for help with terminology, as in \"a term\" or \"a phrase\", not whole paragraphs.



When you pose a question there is a specific instruction: \"This form allows you to ask professional translators for help with tough terms or phrases.\"



Frankly, this is the one main reason translating is a sweat-shop. There are so many low-balling \"translators\" that translating is not worth the time . . .



In the \'References\' space I posted the link to the KudoZ form the asker fills out - http://www.proz.com/index.php3?sp=k



If you think I\'m wrong, spank me . . .





Quote:


On 2001-10-13 10:10, roomynaqvy wrote:

Please report KudoZ abuse to the ProZ staff and also to the Moderator of that language subcommunity. Kindly desist from writing directly to the asker.



Best wishes



Roomy Naqvy

Moderator EnglishGujarati





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