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KudoZ is NOT a free translation service
Thread poster: Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 03:01
German to English
+ ...
Dec 11, 2001

An anonymous ProZ \"member\" (Reid131) has fed an entire poem into the KudoZ system for a free translation. Reid131\'s profile is completely anonymous (no working languages indicated either!).



Unfortunately, a ProZ moderator kept answering those questions, thus giving Mr. Anonymous a free translation. Surely, this is not in line with the spirit of ProZ!


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Monika Coulson  Identity Verified
Local time: 01:01
Member (2001)
English to Albanian
+ ...
Totally agree Dec 11, 2001

Totally agree with you Werner.

Monika
[addsig]


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Telesforo Fernandez
Local time: 12:31
English to Spanish
+ ...
But so it is - Amen Dec 11, 2001

Werner, I appreciate the concern shown by you. You see, it is not the fault of Reid 131 to give almost no details of himself in the profile. The system allows it.



In the same vein, it allows translation agencies too to enter almost no details about themselves on the profile sheet and get free translation done, if they want.



Free translation obtained by Reid is no surprise at all. Have you not seen agencies getting free translations done from translators?



Incidentally, theoretically from January onwards anyone can post a number of agency profiles with almost no details and subsequently post a large number of possible jobs and in several language pairs.



This way, probably one can make PROZ very rich with dollars. And the beautiful part is that you can’t even ask them close the bids.

And mind you, you cannot hold PROZ responsible fir it, because according to Henry, PROZ is just a listing.

Can you hold a mere listing responsible for any liabilities?



You can’t probably stop anyone earning money, because he/ she is in business.



It is your business to check who is in which business before you shell out your money and for that matter, even do a free translation for someone whom you will never be able to trace. Can listings be held responsible?





[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-12-11 07:36 ]


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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 03:01
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Reply to Monika and Telesforo Dec 11, 2001

Monika,



Thank you for your support.



******



Telesforo,



I don\'t think it is ProZ\'s fault as such, but that of individual members. What irks me is the fact that a ProZ moderator jumped in with both feet and gladly and blithely translated someone else\'s job for free - despite the fact that a large number of ProZ members have expressed their wishes very clearly: yes to answering individual terms, but NO to entire texts (just read the various forum threads if you don\'t believe me).



ProZ should definitely do something about that: ProZ should find a way to block this particular type of question.



One explanation I got was that it was about building a glossary. Well, that\'s true of individual terms, but not an entire poem!!!!!

What is the purpose of having a poem in the KudoZ glossary??? Even if you integrated it into a TM database, it would not really serve any practical purposes.



Again, it comes down to the \"age-old\" problem: some people will do anything for KudoZ points, even though no client out there ever pays any attention to the number of points someone may have collected. Sure, it can give you a higher ranking in the bidding system, but that\'s as far as those points will take you. If you still lack the necessary qualifications and experience, that higher ranking will not help you either.



*******



It is not my intention to dwell on this. I just wanted to draw your attention to this kind of recurring abuse of KudoZ. Perhaps, one day, ProZ can do something about it.



Final note: we have been talking about low rates and bids, etc. for a long time now. If ProZ staff hands out free translations on a silver platter, disguised as KudoZ help, then what\'s the purpose of having bids and discussions on rates? Let everyone post their documents in the KudoZ section from now on - it\'ll make things a whole lot \"easier\"

[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-12-11 08:03 ]


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Telesforo Fernandez
Local time: 12:31
English to Spanish
+ ...
It is not their fault Dec 11, 2001

Werner,

I agree with you that it is not PROZ\'s fault.

Obviously, can you hold a listing responsible for anything that translators or agencies do?



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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 03:01
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
No, you can't - and no one wants to Dec 11, 2001

Quote:


On 2001-12-11 07:56, telef wrote:

Werner,

I agree with you that it is not PROZ\'s fault.

Obviously, can you hold a listing responsible for anything that translators or agencies do?





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Laura Gentili  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 09:01
Partial member (2002)
English to Italian
+ ...
Usefulness of KudoZ Points Dec 11, 2001

You wrote:

\"some people will do anything for KudoZ points, even though no client out there ever pays any attention to the number of points someone may have collected\".

KudoZ points help in different ways. Thanks to KudoZ points, 2 colleagues referred me to two agencies they work with, and now these 2 agencies are among my customers.


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Egmont
Spain
Local time: 09:01
Afrikaans to Spanish
+ ...
PICARESCA Dec 11, 2001

The ProZ.com web site must be modified so that anybody can get free translations especially translation agencies. ¡Hay demasiados pícaros!


[addsig]


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Karin Walker  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 09:01
German to English
+ ...
Yes, but... Dec 11, 2001

even though Kudoz points might have helped you get clients, did you jump at any opportunity to grab points like this moderator is apparently doing?



This kind of stuff undermines the very credibility of the system. Yes, some clients might be impressed if they understand the system, and as it stands now, it\'s quite a good one. But if we let this get out of hand, then people will be grabbing at points left right and centre, no matter for what, just because they want to achieve a better ranking. And that\'s when the system goes down the drain, dragging its credibility with it.



I must say, I\'m a bit miffed that the very people who are meant \"to keep us in check\" are helping people to abuse the system. Very disillusioning.


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Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 09:01
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Reid is just one of many aliases Dec 11, 2001

Werner-George, good day.



(First question: Why do you underline your name and write it in Italics? You\'re heard all over the place, you do not need to shout.)



Reid: He is just one of many aliases a member, or a small group of members use. A twin brother of Anonymous, Vanessa, Peter, Jason, Jonathan and so on. And it is not only empty profiles with no points that are fake. Oh no, the system is more elaborate. We just loose our time answering those questions. But everyone should feel free to answer them, especially since the originator nowadays does not always attribute the points to himself or his group, but distributes it elsewhere to be able to defend himself. I have received points from them, but I am not going to be duped.



What can we do? Probably nothing without solidarity. One idea is to asked to be contacted in private. All the others seeing this posting would refrain from answering. If we all would do that when in doubt, I think this time consuming and annoying activity would stop (for a while).



Is there any solidarity among us. Or are wqe just ready to do anything to grab some points?


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Giuliana Buscaglione  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 09:01
Member (2001)
German to Italian
+ ...
Local Control Dec 11, 2001

Hi Werner,



Proz staff can\'t be all over in the site, that\'s why we have moderators... In your case not a great help for prozies...



I can only say this seems to be a problem in your language pair/s, because moderators in my pairs are very active (and not only in this sense) and always do something, but we do something, too: we propose only one word or little sentence, than we suggest to post the text as a job... (I haven\'t seen a full poem or short story, but several questions leading to the same book anyway) and moderators write privately or write directly in the specific Kudoz.



Complain with your short-sighted moderator...





Giuliana
[addsig]


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Evert DELOOF-SYS  Identity Verified
Belgium
Local time: 09:01
Member
English to Dutch
+ ...
KudoZ never taken into consideration? Dec 11, 2001

I have to disagree on this one.



Werner Patels wrote (a.o.):

\"Again, it comes down to the \"age-old\" problem: some people will do anything for KudoZ points, even though no client out there ever pays any attention to the number of points someone may have collected. Sure, it can give you a higher ranking in the bidding system, but that\'s as far as those points will take you. If you still lack the necessary qualifications and experience, that higher ranking will not help you either.\"





The following is an excerpt of an e-mail I received on November 28 from a translation agency in the US regarding KudoZ

(as moderator of a few SC\'s, I wanted to know if KudoZ was important to them - the agency had also asked me to help them in closing a bid).



\"Also, in answer to your inquiry, we chose the translator mainly on the basis of relevant experience and a price that was in the range that we could afford on the project. I would never choose a translator solely on the basis of price. Regarding KudoZ points, all other things being equal, we certainly do look at them as a factor in such decisions.\"



The job was posted on ProZ, assigned to a ProZ member at a decent rate and properly closed.



And I do agree that answering KudoZ proves to be helpful in other ways as well.



One example only:

Just recently I received a nice assignment (+1350 EUR) through one of the ProZ members I helped out in the past. It took me less than three days to complete the assignment. Not bad...



By the way, whenever someone posts complete texts (letters, poems or what have you) I immediately post something to that effect.



If I then find other ProZ members still answering (almost always because they\'re only hunting for more KudoZ), I simply squash the lot. Like it or not.




[addsig]


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Telesforo Fernandez
Local time: 12:31
English to Spanish
+ ...
I too received an inquiry Dec 11, 2001

Evert DELOOF-SYS :

I also received an e- mail( just 2 hours ago) asking me to send them my CV.It is not agency, but an IT company.



But I must congratulate you because they asked you to help them close a bid properly. See, these people( agencies) sometimes do not know how to close a bid also. But your expertise must have been really helpful in closing that bid. If somebody had asked me to do so, I would have been lost.





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Werner George Patels, M.A., C.Tran.(ATIO)
Local time: 03:01
German to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Right on, Karin Dec 11, 2001

Quote:


On 2001-12-11 09:34, KGartshore wrote:



I must say, I\'m a bit miffed that the very people who are meant \"to keep us in check\" are helping people to abuse the system. Very disillusioning.





You are so right, Karin. What we need is solidarity, also from the moderators. Especially at a time when ProZ is undergoing some major changes (eg, charging for bids), ProZ members must be able to feel comfortable on this site (don\'t forget that a number of people have said that they would leave ProZ as a result of the $1 charge for bids).

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Mimi7
Local time: 01:01
English to French
+ ...
Totally agree also Dec 11, 2001

I completely agree Werner. Also,as a French prof, I\'ve seen people (who are obviously students) submit an entire paragraph of text to proz which I am sure is a homework assignment, and it really bothers me when a translator translates the entire paragraph for them. -Lynelle
[addsig]


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