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Thread poster: Jacek Krankowski
Jacek Krankowski  Identity Verified
English to Polish
+ ...
Feb 21, 2003

Is it only my impression or is there a dramatic change between 2003 and 2002 when the following controversial yet constructive debates were able to take place on this and other Forums:



Why I\'m not renewing my Platinum membership.... (5 pages of postings)

http://www.proz.com/index.php3?sp=bb/viewtopic&mode=viewtopic&topic_id=6434&

forum_id=23&start=0



ProZ.com: pros...or dangerous amateurs? (4 pages)

http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&post=13633#13633



Mud slinging on Kudoz questions (6 pages)

http://www.proz.com/?sp=bb/viewtopic&post=14845#14845



11/9: Casi un ano (9 pages)

http://www.proz.com/index.php3?sp=bb/viewtopic&mode=viewtopic&topic_id=5009&

forum_id=24&start=0



Out of the above total of 24 pages of postings only one thread was locked at

a certain point. All the others, despite all the controversy, were allowed to naturally burn themselves out. So approx. 360 postings from various hotheads, some of them long expelled now, were allowed in what amounted above to be yes, heated, but certainly constructive debates which hammered out the identity of ProZ. I may be, of course, a nitpicker

because all the problems may have been solved during the 3.5 years of my

membership, or the hotheads being gone there may simply be no more new problems to talk about, which would mean the state of bliss I should not spoil by asking inappropriate questions. Forgive my intrusion.





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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:56
English to Italian
I'm dead bored.... Feb 21, 2003

as the author of the first, vastly popular posting , I can only agree... no more heated arguments, rows, insults. Proz has been sanitized, also with the expulsion of a few hotheads. Is this a good thing? Don\'t think so!



Giovanni

[ This Message was edited by:on2003-02-21 08:57]


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 15:56
English to German
+ ...
Excuse me... Feb 21, 2003

...but I fail to appreciate the attraction of \"rows and insults\". I don\'t mind a controversial AND constructive discussion at all - but frankly, I don\'t get nostalgic if we no longer need to discuss \"mud slinging on KudoZ questions\".





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Jacek Krankowski  Identity Verified
English to Polish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Precisely, Ralf Feb 21, 2003

Quote:


On 2003-02-21 09:00, Lemster wrote:

I don\'t get nostalgic if we no longer need to discuss \"mud slinging on KudoZ questions\".





I do not understand why there should be mud slinging (and I doubt there would be any) about the continuation, for instance, of the respectable William Safire On Language column on the ProZ Linguistics Forum. If you look at the last NYT Magazine you will understand why what is still perfectly possible to be written On Language elsewhere would no longer be possible to be mentioned here. I am just puzzled by the dramatic changes that have been imposed between 2002 and 2003. The demise of Translator Coop?

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Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 15:56
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Personal attacks vs. controversial subjects Feb 21, 2003

Those are two different things alltogether. I believe cheap attacks below the belt - we have seen many of those - should be banned.

But controversial subjects bring that fresh breeze of the outside world to us, a world we cannot ignore, cannot split up in stuff we want to hear and stuff we close our eyes and ears to. Because not everybopdy wants to hear the same thing. Which in itself is a good thing.

Maya





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Arthur Borges
China
Local time: 21:56
English
+ ...
Controversy is indispensable to growth Feb 21, 2003

Otherwise I can have almost as much fun doing Online Scrabble.

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Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 08:56
German to English
Bliss! Feb 21, 2003

Jacek wrote: “360 postings from various hotheads, some of them long expelled now, were allowed in what amounted … to be yes, heated, but certainly constructive debates”



Schopenhauer wrote: “To be able to live among men and women we must allow everyone to exist with his given individuality. If we condemn another man absolutely, there is nothing for him but to treat us as a mortal enemy; for we are willing to grant him the right to exist only on condition that he becomes different from what he invariably is.”



Those days you yearn for, Jacek, were not so much days of heated debate but of devastating contempt for the individuality of others. Yes, there is a fresh new breeze at ProZ, an atmosphere in which one is freer of acrimony and in which it is easier to concentrate on the “work” we do as translators. The breeze no longer has the stench of evil.



Many of those “hotheads” you refer to were hate mongers, not contributors to constructive debates. The threads you refer to were dominated by sociopaths pursuing a megalomaniacal dream of creating a “new world order” in the translation business in which no one would be permitted to translate who didn’t have an MA in translation. They were expelled because so very many ProZ colleagues demanded they be because these “hotheads” were unable to confine their diatribes to the forums but regularly followed them up with vicious private emails to colleagues with whom they disagreed. They were incapable of stating an argument without wounding others to the heart. Yes, I’m glad we don’t have that as much here any more.

Kim


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Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 15:56
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Quoting Schopenhauer and contradicting him in one breath... Feb 21, 2003

Quote:


Schopenhauer wrote: “To be able to live among men and women we must allow everyone to exist with his given individuality.




Yes, so well said.



Quote:
On 2003-02-21 18:28, kmetzger wrote:



Many of those “hotheads” you refer to were hate mongers, not contributors to constructive debates. The threads you refer to were dominated by sociopaths pursuing a megalomaniacal dream of creating a “new world order” in the translation business in which no one would be permitted to translate who didn’t have an MA in translation.


No.

You contradict Schopenhauer. And you talk about people, again, when we talk about subjects.

That\'s at least what I understand.

Maya

[ This Message was edited by:on2003-02-21 20:31]


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Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 15:56
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
They, they, they..... Feb 23, 2003

Quote:


They committed blatant offenses against this international community...they ...They...





They? It\'s people you mean? See Schopenhauer. I thought we were talking about subjects?????



For heaven\'s sake, if you are talking about people raising subjects you did not like, say so. These people are gone. What was the subject? Talk about the sujects you did not like, not about the people.



Grrrh.... (and sorry)

Maya

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Arthur Borges
China
Local time: 21:56
English
+ ...
Oh Maya, they even used WMD Feb 23, 2003

\"Wagonloads of Mighty Dictionaries\" -- um, no...how about \"Words of Mass Destruction\" -- hmm, too pretentious -- or \"Weapons of Muddled Diatribe\" -- er, too contrived, but anyhow, I hope somebody transformed them into beanbags of democracy.

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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 15:56
English to German
+ ...
Yes, Maya - *they*! Feb 23, 2003

Quote:


They? It\'s people you mean? See Schopenhauer. I thought we were talking about subjects?????



Jacek\'s posting starting this thread referred to subjects - but even he referred to \"hotheads\", with Giovanni following up by saying he was bored in the absence of \"heated arguments, rows and insults\". Focused on subjects...?



Quote:


For heaven\'s sake, if you are talking about people raising subjects you did not like, say so.



Kim\'s point did not refer to the fact that these people perhaps also raised controversial subjects, but to the fact that they were quite apparently unable to maintain control in a controversial debate. If you look at the threads, you will find that you cannot really separate the concepts.





Maybe it\'s worth having another look at the ProZ.com Mission Statement: this is primarily a business site, and I stronlgy prefer it that way.

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Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 15:56
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
What could be, not what has been... Feb 23, 2003

Quote:


On 2003-02-23 11:39, Lemster wrote:

..that they were quite apparently unable to maintain control in a controversial debate. If you look at the threads, you will find that you cannot really separate the concepts.





Maybe it\'s worth having another look at the ProZ.com Mission Statement: this is primarily a business site, and I stronlgy prefer it that way.



I understood that much and I do agree, Ralph. But if we continue to call people names, question their motivation and condemn them as soon as they voice an opinion, (and therefore remembering fondly those who are gone) we are going straight back to where we have been. I thought we wanted to avoid that.



And yes, this is PRIMARILY a business site, exactly as offices are PRIMARILY business premises. How much time is spent on real business and how much time for chatting, discussing news, making and unmaking couples, intrigues and thinking up new strategies to further one\'s carreer? You tell me.



proZ is a mirror of all this. And that is why we have \'off topic\', \'the lighter side..\', the language forums where just a few topics concern language. And we have staunch individuals from x countries with xx opinions.



Now, can\'t we look forward to what could be instead of always reminding everyone what has been?

Can we?



Maya



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Maya Jurt  Identity Verified
Switzerland
Local time: 15:56
Member (2002)
French to German
+ ...
Don't live in the past, join the present. Feb 23, 2003

Do I remember? No I don\'t. I am not a rancorous person. I have received my part of nastygrams and threats, even from moderators, but I do not keep track and safeguard such or other messages.



Again, what happened was in the past. You are invited (I think) to join the present.

Peace and order? Yes of course. Except for one reason or an other, it has a nasty ring for me.



Maya


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xxxarbeit
Local time: 15:56
English to Spanish
+ ...
in fact Feb 23, 2003

It does not matter what you say, do or think there will be always a person to find it wrong.

C´est la vie.


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Jacek Krankowski  Identity Verified
English to Polish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
controversial people vs. controversial topics Feb 24, 2003

I am glad the above distinction was made right at the outset of this thread. I have once again looked at the 4 topics I brought up and except for one scuffle which resulted in the locking by Henry of one of the threads, I really do not see any problem with the control of controversial threads EVEN WITH controversial members participating, let alone after they are gone. I agree, though, that whether one wants to allow discussion or not within an organisation is a business decision the owner is always free to make.

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