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Am I really not a Certified Pro because of not abiding by the site rules?
Thread poster: Ali Bayraktar
Ali Bayraktar  Identity Verified
Turkey
Member (2007)
English to Turkish
+ ...
Oct 28, 2008

I have just received an answer from site staff which says that Unfortunately I am not eligible for Certified PRO Program because there is a serious administrative actions in my past. (But I paid for all of them)

Do I really deserve such kind of ban from this network only because of the above mentioned point?

I am posting this in order to see and understand that from others' point of views.
Because I am really angry and can't think neutrally, so your appreciation (whatever they would be) would be highly welcomed.

Advance thanks to those who would suppose this post worth to be answered

Best Regards,

M. Ali


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Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 23:55
Member (2005)
English to Russian
+ ...
Nature of administrative actions? Oct 28, 2008

Hi Ali

You wrote:
I have just received an answer from site staff which says that Unfortunately I am not eligible for Certified PRO Program because there is a serious administrative actions in my past. (But I paid for all of them)


It's impossible to answer your question without knowing the nature of these actions.


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Ali Bayraktar  Identity Verified
Turkey
Member (2007)
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Nature of My Actions (Confession) Oct 28, 2008

Mikhail Kropotov wrote:

Hi Ali

You wrote:
I have just received an answer from site staff which says that Unfortunately I am not eligible for Certified PRO Program because there is a serious administrative actions in my past. (But I paid for all of them)


It's impossible to answer your question without knowing the nature of these actions.


I should have been declared this publicly long time ago but it is never to late to mend.

Most of the actions were related to usage of areas for intended purposes (such as: 1-2 times wrong usage of ask the asker area and 1-2 times I have replied with offensive language (not jargon) to those who provided provocative peer comments)

But the biggest action was:

In approximately May 2007 I have registered here with a different user name (but my name were the same, the only difference were in e-mail adresses and usernames) And in July 2007 I have registered here with my current username. In September 2007 I have entered in 4th Translation Contest. And began studying the system. My entry was initially at the first place and then the last entry in the order has gone up the first place.

And I have made this post
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_translation_contests/84274-the_fourth_translation_contest_is_now_in_the_final_voting_phase-page3.html#678047

And after that, I have remembered my previous username. Entered in the site with it, looked at the entries. But they were in the same order as I saw them with my other username. Then thought "what if I would vote". And I voted for myself (4) points, and voted for the others 2 and 1 points. After this action in September 2007 I have been banned from the site for 7 days. But I must say that I did not do it for making an advantage for myself. I did it because I did not believe Florencia''s answer http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_translation_contests/84274-the_fourth_translation_contest_is_now_in_the_final_voting_phase-page3.html#678151

Thats all what I have done in this site. And paid for all of them.



[Edited at 2008-10-28 21:18]


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Astrid Elke Witte  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 22:55
Member (2002)
German to English
+ ...
I have no idea how long such records are kept "current" Oct 28, 2008

From an ethical perspective, such records would have to be deleted or disregarded after a certain period of time has lapsed. However, 2007 is fairly recent, from that point of view, and voting for your own entry is not exactly professional conduct, whether it is done for one reason or another reason.

As far as I recollect, you can re-apply for consideration as a Certified PRO in a year. That year should make a difference if you conduct yourself professionally and build up your reputation in the meantime.

That apart, you do not need to be labelled a Certified PRO in order to be successful in business, which is what we are all trying to be. Therefore, if you are not accepted at the moment, I would presume that the next most sensible step would be to think of what you could do to improve your business, work with greater efficiency, increase productivity, gain new clients who are willing to pay more, etc. There are so many interesting things you can do to build up your business that it really is not worth focusing on anything that does not appear to work out or be possible at this very moment. There are too many positive things to do instead.

Astrid


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Ali Bayraktar  Identity Verified
Turkey
Member (2007)
English to Turkish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
I am not focusing on the network Oct 28, 2008

Astrid Elke Johnson wrote:

From an ethical perspective, such records would have to be deleted or disregarded after a certain period of time has lapsed. However, 2007 is fairly recent, from that point of view, and voting for your own entry is not exactly professional conduct, whether it is done for one reason or another reason.

As far as I recollect, you can re-apply for consideration as a Certified PRO in a year. That year should make a difference if you conduct yourself professionally and build up your reputation in the meantime.

That apart, you do not need to be labelled a Certified PRO in order to be successful in business, which is what we are all trying to be. Therefore, if you are not accepted at the moment, I would presume that the next most sensible step would be to think of what you could do to improve your business, work with greater efficiency, increase productivity, gain new clients who are willing to pay more, etc. There are so many interesting things you can do to build up your business that it really is not worth focusing on anything that does not appear to work out or be possible at this very moment. There are too many positive things to do instead.

Astrid


Thank you for your excellent suggestions and honest opinions.

Actually what I have been angry with is:

Imagine that you have a qualification, and your qualification acknowledged internationally and you own a profession, a real profession which certified by most of the State Institutions. For example you work in Ministry of Defense and you are certified to do your profession. And you have been stopped by the police while you were driving drunken. Or you have kicked your computer at your workplace and broken it. Or you have done a bad thing which does not bring you a imprisonment. Should such kind of actions be related to your profession and decide how good are you in your profession?

I am not proud of what I have done but I meet all official and EN 15038 Criteria.

And somebody comes to me and says I am not certified in my profession and bases this claim only on the said actions which are absolutely not related to my professional skills. And shows this (that he/she is not sure am I capable as a translator or not) to everyone (by absence of the letter "P").


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Tina Vonhof  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 14:55
Member (2006)
Dutch to English
+ ...
It may have nothing to do with your professional skills Oct 29, 2008

Keep in mind that not being accepted as a Proz Certified Professional does not mean that there is anything wrong with your skills or qualifications as a translator. The 'certified pro' designation is based not only on your professional skills but also on other criteria, including your professional behaviour. It is an honour, not a right, to belong.

By your own admission you engaged in (very) unprofessional behaviour on this site as recently as May 2007. Instead of being angry, accept responsibility for your mistakes, vow to show people that you are a true professional after all by impeccable behaviour when you participate in kudoz, forums, and translation contests, and be patient until you are given the opportunity to apply again.


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Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 23:55
Member (2005)
English to Russian
+ ...
Slightly off-topic Oct 29, 2008

Tina Vonhof wrote:
The 'certified pro' designation is based not only on your professional skills...


I would say that is the last thing it's based on, at least in my main pair.

Anyway, Ali, I wouldn't worry about it too much. Like I just said, it's no big honour anyway.


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Niraja Nanjundan  Identity Verified
Local time: 02:25
German to English
I agree with Tina, but... Oct 29, 2008

Tina Vonhof wrote:
It is an honour, not a right, to belong


....the fact that sample translations are being peer reviewed indicates that translation ability is being taken seriously as well. Some of the people who have already been selected are actually not that active on the site, i.e. in KudoZ, the forums or elsewhere, so I presume they scored high on translation ability and feedback from clients.

Sorry, this is also an off-topic point. As far as M.Ali Bayraktar's query goes, I agree with all the input so far.


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Astrid Elke Witte  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 22:55
Member (2002)
German to English
+ ...
Nobody is questioning your skill as a translator Oct 29, 2008

Hi Ali,

Yes, I know it is personally distressing to be excluded from a group to which you want to belong. However, this particular group - the Certified PRO group - focuses fairly heavily on professional conduct, and makes it equally important with professional qualifications. Nobody has excluded you forever, but you may have to wait for some time.

Angry as you may be (which I can fully understand), there appears to be nothing else to be done now except prove that you are a professional in every way possible and make a real success of your business.

In the context of the site, you could, for example, raise your profile by writing an excellent article on a useful aspect of translation, which would be viewed by people regularly and also bring you the traffic to your profile that you may lose from not having the "P" symbol. That is just one example of how you could combat the effect. Another possibility is to compensate using your own web site. There is no limit on what you can do with your own web site, and you get a link to it from your Proz.com profile, anyway - though you might like to first of all make sure that link works. At the moment it does not work, because the "link" consists of several domain names written together as one, and that composite one does not, of course, exist.

Best regards,

Astrid

[Edited at 2008-10-29 06:11]


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Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 21:55
French to English
Declined or did not apply Oct 29, 2008

You are the lucky beneficiary of one aspect of this scheme (and many other schemes like it), which is that there is no way of distingushing people who have been rejected from those who simply have not applied.

So, unless people (clients) actively seek out your forum contributions, they won't know.


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Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 22:55
Member (2005)
English to Spanish
+ ...
I agree... Oct 29, 2008

Tina Vonhof wrote:
By your own admission you engaged in (very) unprofessional behaviour on this site as recently as May 2007. Instead of being angry, accept responsibility for your mistakes, vow to show people that you are a true professional after all by impeccable behaviour when you participate in kudoz, forums, and translation contests, and be patient until you are given the opportunity to apply again.


I have no option but to agree. I am quite blunt sometimes expressing ideas or complaints in Kudoz and forums (I regret it later in most cases), but my goal is not to insult anybody, just to point out a behaviour I dislike or consider to be wrong.

So the penalty must come from using two user IDs (which is not allowed; some people have been driven out of Proz completely because of that) and voting for yourself (whatever the reasons may be), not from a blunt or less politically-correct way of expression. So now it's the time to admit that these things were wrong and learn from the experience.


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 22:55
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Yes, I think so Oct 29, 2008

M. Ali Bayraktar wrote:
I have just received an answer from site staff which says that Unfortunately I am not eligible for Certified PRO Program because there is a serious administrative actions in my past. ... Do I really deserve such kind of ban from this network only because of the above mentioned point?


Well, if I understand the CPPro function correctly, then yes, I think you can expect to be denied access to it for bad behaviour. And I don't think there is anything wrong with that either. The purpose of the CPPro feature is to include only translators of certain moral fibre, and you're not it. It is unfair, but it is something you have to accept. If you make a certain class of mistakes, you will suffer for it.

The ProZ.com site rules state very clearly that you can have only one user name. Whether this rule is highly visible is not really the point -- the point is that it is a site rule and you are expected to abide by it. The site rules also state that you're not to use your second user name to bypass restrictions, and that is what you've done. The fact that you bypassed the restrictions for noble purposes is not the point.

You have my sympathy for having been picked on, because there was no other way for you to satisfy your curiosity about whether Florencia spoke the truth, but the fact is that you used an approach that was stupid, and you're now suffering for your own stupidity. Well, I'm also stupid sometimes.

No doubt you will lose a lot of business by not being certified, and you will miss out on all the activities planned for certified members, but I'm sure you can still make a success of your professional life.


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Andrea Riffo  Identity Verified
Chile
Local time: 16:55
English to Spanish
ummm Oct 29, 2008

Samuel Murray wrote:

No doubt you will lose a lot of business by not being certified, and you will miss out on all the activities planned for certified members, but I'm sure you can still make a success of your professional life.



Are you being ironic, or do you really mean that??


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Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 22:55
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Not unprofessional Oct 29, 2008

Tina Vonhof wrote:
By your own admission you engaged in (very) unprofessional behaviour on this site as recently as May 2007.


I disagree. Sockpuppetry is not unprofessional per se. There are unprofessional things one can do on ProZ.com without breaking any rules, but breaking a web site rule is itself not necessarily unprofessional.

Instead of being angry, accept responsibility for your mistakes...


I don't think Ali has any choice in the matter of "accepting responsibility" -- ProZ.com does it for him already by holding his actions against him and besides, I don't think responsibility is what he has to accept. It is reality that he should accept.

No-one could have forseen that one day there will be a ProZ.com initiative to separate the wheat from the chaff based on actions such as the ones perpetrated by Ali.

I myself have done things that I regretted, and sighed a sigh of relief when there were little or no repercussions, thinking that I can safely move forward, a better person. But who knows... perhaps one of my past actions will eventually come back to haunt me, when I least expect it, after I thought that I had left it behind long ago.


[Edited at 2008-10-29 16:00]


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Marie-Hélène Hayles  Identity Verified
Local time: 22:55
Italian to English
+ ...
Disagree with Samuel Oct 29, 2008

Samuel Murray wrote:

Tina Vonhof wrote:
By your own admission you engaged in (very) unprofessional behaviour on this site as recently as May 2007.


I disagree. Sockpuppetry is not unprofessional per se. There are unprofessional things one can do on ProZ.com without breaking any rules, but breaking a web site rule is itself not necessarily unprofessional.




Sockpuppetry in itself may not be necessarily unprofessional, but it's hard to argue that using a sock puppet to vote for your own entry in a competition is not unprofessional, surely? (And if that's too many negatives, then I'll put it simply - IMO using a sock puppet to vote for your own entry is unprofessional behaviour.)

I agree with Astrid - rather than dwelling on the past, it's time for Ali to move on and build up his reputation so that he has a better chance of being accepted next time round.

[edited to remove any suggestion that my last comment was aimed at Samuel, not Ali]

[Edited at 2008-10-29 16:08]


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