| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Gender discrimination Thread poster: Laureana Pavon
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| Yes, yes, I know - and I have a boyfriend, too (what's that got to do with it?) | Jan 8, 2009 |
Janet Rubin wrote: Jenny Forbes wrote: I'm shocked at you linguists using/tolerating the use of the expression "gender discrimination" when what is meant is "sex discrimination". Hi Jenny, not sure how far your tongue was in your cheek, but "gender discrimination" is indeed an accepted variant of "sex discrimination" (try Google for court case discussions). Some references I found from the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission use "sex-based discrimination". Interestingly enough, my brief search also revealed a study published on an NIH site entitled "Racial and gender discrimination: risk factors for high blood pressure?". [That would make for a great thread: What makes your blood pressure go up?] I'm not saying you don't have the linguistic authority to state your case, but you may very well be fighting an uphill battle. 
You're right - it's an uphill battle, but I'll fight it just the same (BOTH my grandmothers were suffragettes).
It's just that the use of "gender" instead of "sex" is one of those many modish and mealy-mouthed Blairisms that I so detest. It is often believed (not by translators, of course) that "sex" means the sexual act rather than the differentiation of creatures at conception, etc., so people think it more "genteel" to say gender. The fact that Google and a milliion other sources, local council forms and so on now use "gender" rather than "sex" does nothing to calm my rage.
Jen
| | | | | I was just trying to decline politely | Jan 8, 2009 |
Jenny Forbes wrote: and I have a boyfriend, too (what's that got to do with it?)
Jenny Forbes wrote: Sex, please
Well, you did ask
| | | | | Respect and you will be respected | Jan 8, 2009 |
Janet Rubin wrote:
Personally, I don't agree with the adage that all cultures need to be respected. Admired for their historical value, perseverance, uniqueness, additions to society, yes. Respected, not necessarily.
Disagree. Respect is one of the cornerstones of peaceful coexistence.
To me, this was discrimination. She was not *allowed* in the tunnels. Was there something physically preventing her from going down there? Was she not strong enough? Was she not tall enough? Of course there are reasons such as these that would make it much more reasonable and safer for a male to enter the tunnels.
Sorry but their reasons were acceptable in their eyes, and that was enough for me.
What if it had been a convent instead of a mine? Should I cry "discrimination" because a female colleague is allowed to enter and I am left out?
But absent actual "physical" reasons, I see this culture as perpetuating discrimination against women. She was not allowed down, you were. She did not get extra pay, you did.
I got the extra pay because I did the extra job. Were there reasons for me to do it instead of of her? To the eyes of that people, yes. Call me crazy, but I don't consider upsetting several dozens of male workers just to prevent one female worker from feeling discriminated against as "equality".
Remember, what you call "superstition" is "religion" for somebody else, and science for a third one.
I don't really see the need to respect that.
There are people who dont see the need to respect our society's values. Should we change these to appease them?
[Editado a las 2009-01-08 12:54 GMT]
| | | | | OT: Respect must be earned | Jan 8, 2009 |
Edwal Rospigliosi wrote: Disagree. Respect is one of the cornerstones of peaceful coexistence.
You certainly may disagree. This is a basic difference of opinion.
Sorry but their reasons were acceptable in their eyes, and that was enough for me.
Some societies see slavery as perfectly acceptable. Others found it to be unworthy of respect and worked to change it. True change usually happens from within, but ideas can come from without.
What if it had been a convent instead of a mine? Should I cry "discrimination" because a female colleague is allowed to enter and I am left out?
For the most part, we usually have some say in the environments we work in. If we have strong objections for whatever reason, we are often able to leave, to disassociate ourselves from people practicing a policy we don't agree with.
If I feel a Christian convent or a Buddhist monestery is promoting discrimination (I haven't been in that situation yet), I may decide not to work for one or even visit. That is a personal decision. I might make a different decision than you would.
Call me crazy, but I don't consider upsetting several dozens of male workers just to prevent one female worker from feeling discriminated against as "equality".
I don't think anyone here has been advocating rebellious behavior or protests. We are not judging whether what you did was right for the situation, or even whether you had a choice. A few of us are simply expressing our opinion that a culture that does not permit a female to do certain work for so-called cultural reasons or belief is still acting discriminatorily. And personally, I just don't respect that.
Remember, what you call "superstition" is "religion" for somebody else, and science for a third one.
The idea of "superstition" was brought up by Samuel and not really debated. The only thing that I stated was that for me - personally - discrimination is still discrimination regardless of whether the underlying motivation is superstition, religion, or "science". I think you will find a lot of people feel the same way. Discrimination is an issue that touches on "basic human rights" for a lot of people.
There are people who dont see the need to respect our society's values. Should we change these to appease them?
The strong will always prevail. Whether by force of arms, by strength of will, by popularity, by litigation, by enforcement, by economic success. If those societies that do not respect "ours" become stronger in any of these ways, they may indeed cause us to change.
And by the same token, "our" society - by force of arms, by strength of will, by popularity, by litigation, by enforcement, by economic success - may cause other societies to change.
Not all change is good, but change is inevitible. As a wise woman once said, be the change you want to see in the world.
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Can Altinbay 
Local time: 00:21
Japanese to English
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In memoriam | I am a man and I agree with this | Jan 8, 2009 |
Janet Rubin wrote: Edwal Rospigliosi wrote: ...she was not allowed inside the tunnels. ... So I got the extra pay for hazardous duty and she didn't, but we saw it as respecting multiculturalism, not as discrimination. Personally, I don't agree with the adage that all cultures need to be respected. Admired for their historical value, perseverance, uniqueness, additions to society, yes. Respected, not necessarily. To me, this was discrimination. She was not *allowed* in the tunnels. Was there something physically preventing her from going down there? Was she not strong enough? Was she not tall enough? Of course there are reasons such as these that would make it much more reasonable and safer for a male to enter the tunnels. But absent actual "physical" reasons, I see this culture as perpetuating discrimination against women. She was not allowed down, you were. She did not get extra pay, you did. I don't really see the need to respect that.
In fact, I was just about to post a similar response. Discrimination is discrimination. Culture and religion are not excuses for discrimination, not to mention mistreating people. I have long held this opinion.
| | | | Can Altinbay
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In memoriam | I take exception to this statement | Jan 8, 2009 |
Edwal Rospigliosi wrote:
There are people who dont see the need to respect our society's values. Should we change these to appease them?
[Editado a las 2009-01-08 12:54 GMT]
What are "society's values"? Discrimination? Female circumcision? Honor killing? These are all "society's values". How does opposing these constitute "dont see the need to respect our society's values"?
No. The things I mention are regarded as tradition, culture, religion. Wrong is wrong. I don't see why we need to respect mistreatment of human beings. You may not have meant it in the way it came across to me, but it seemed like the very attitude that allows terrible things to go on.
I don't advocate bombing people to change their "values", but we don't have to respect them, and to the extent possible, we should let them know that some behavior is unacceptable and that that part of their culture or religion must change.
| | | | | Apologies, Janet. | Jan 8, 2009 |
Janet Rubin wrote: Jenny Forbes wrote: and I have a boyfriend, too (what's that got to do with it?) Jenny Forbes wrote: Sex, please Well, you did ask
Apologies, Janet. I had a humour lapse (rare).
Best wishes,
Jenny
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Jenny Forbes wrote:I had a humour lapse (rare).
It's VERY easy to miss these sorts of things on these interwebz, no harm done!
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| Western values aren't the only ones. | Jan 8, 2009 |
Can Altinbay wrote:
What are "society's values"? Discrimination? Female circumcision? Honor killing? These are all "society's values". How does opposing these constitute "dont see the need to respect our society's values"?
What about "gender equality"? That's a "western society value". What if others don't see the need to respect it? What if others tell you: "my culture doesn't find this acceptable, therefore your culture must change it".
You may not have meant it in the way it came across to me, but it seemed like the very attitude that allows terrible things to go on.
Such as the almost extinction of the Native American culture, the conquest of the Inca people, the decimation of the Maori people? Didn't this "no need to respect them" attitude play also a big part in their fates?
I don't advocate bombing people to change their "values", but we don't have to respect them, and to the extent possible, we should let them know that some behavior is unacceptable and that that part of their culture or religion must change.
I hope you're so amenable to such idea when it's others telling "you" that some of "your" values are unacceptable and that "you" have to change that part of your culture and religion.
It's very easy to be part of the dominant, stronger culture. Try to be the other side, sometimes.
| | | | | Western values, human rights and relativisim | Jan 8, 2009 |
Edwal Rospigliosi wrote:
What about "gender equality"? That's a "western society value".
Such as the almost extinction of the Native American culture, the conquest of the Inca people, the decimation of the Maori people? Didn't this "no need to respect them" attitude play also a big part in their fates?
I hope you're so amenable to such idea when it's others telling "you" that some of "your" values are unacceptable and that "you" have to change that part of your culture and religion.
It's very easy to be part of the dominant, stronger culture. Try to be the other side, sometimes.
This discussion on discrimination, values and culture could go on for ages. Actually it has elsewhere been going on for ages.
These issues certainly cannot be clearcut completely, there are lots of greys; not only black and white.
But total relativism is very dangerous.
Not all distinguishing and discriminating features of a country have real roots within the relevant culture. Mostly they were introduced in time by the dominating group (gender, class, cast, party, religion, tribe, etc.). Some have had a top-down process, rather than the bottom-up one that most think they have.
Gender equality for one is not a western society value. It has become a value of most western societies, but its roots are very recent. And it will one day become a value of all cultures (I am an optimistic woman). Try and ask oppressed women from around the world what they think of gender discrimination? If they are free to really express themselves, you will easily understand that where religion doesn't have a total imprinting from birth, gender equality is a value that every woman (or gay person for that matter) aspires to. No matter where they live.
At this point in time, the universal declaration of human rights seems to me the best benchmark that permits to steers free from total relativism and to respect individuals and cultures while strongly criticising certain behaviours, rules, laws, customs, practices.
| | | | Can Altinbay
Local time: 00:21
Japanese to English
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In memoriam | Oh, of course, I find nothing wrong with my culture | Jan 8, 2009 |
Edwal Rospigliosi wrote: Can Altinbay wrote:
What are "society's values"? Discrimination? Female circumcision? Honor killing? These are all "society's values". How does opposing these constitute "dont see the need to respect our society's values"? What about "gender equality"? That's a "western society value". What if others don't see the need to respect it? What if others tell you: "my culture doesn't find this acceptable, therefore your culture must change it". You may not have meant it in the way it came across to me, but it seemed like the very attitude that allows terrible things to go on. Such as the almost extinction of the Native American culture, the conquest of the Inca people, the decimation of the Maori people? Didn't this "no need to respect them" attitude play also a big part in their fates? I don't advocate bombing people to change their "values", but we don't have to respect them, and to the extent possible, we should let them know that some behavior is unacceptable and that that part of their culture or religion must change.
I hope you're so amenable to such idea when it's others telling "you" that some of "your" values are unacceptable and that "you" have to change that part of your culture and religion. It's very easy to be part of the dominant, stronger culture. Try to be the other side, sometimes.
Typically, you assume that I find my own culture perfect. This is not true. There are many things wrong with it (of course, you assume also that my ancestors are Mayflower/conquistador stock). All the things you mention are wrong.
It's not a matter of opinion when people are hurt by others' actions. Culture/religion/tradition - all used as excuses to harm people. And when that happens, it's wrong. It's not a perspective.
This will be my last answer to your postings, as your postings come across as fixed assumptions and "values" concerning the topic, and it's useless to keep addressing them.
| | | | | You can tell them what to do... and they can tell you thanks but no, thanks. | Jan 8, 2009 |
Try and ask oppressed women from around the world what they think of gender discrimination?
My friend, I am a man. I experience gender discrimination almost every day. But that's not a subject for ProZ fora.
But total relativism is very dangerous.
And total Western-centrism is also very dangerous.
You wouldn't barge into your neighbor's house and demand him to do things your way, right? Most of us would not accept anybody telling us what to wear, how to pray, where to live, who to marry, etc. We won't obey even our own political, legal and religious leaders. And still, some people think that we have the right to go to other cultures and tell them exactly that and even worse, to be offended when they tell us to stuff it.
It's simple: Respect and be respected. They have their culture, we have ours. We may not like their culture -God knows they don't like many things in ours- but we owe each other that.
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Edwal Rospigliosi wrote:
You wouldn't barge into your neighbor's house and demand him to do things your way, right?
I might indeed do this, and I hope you would, too. Some members of the cultures that dominate parts of the city near which I live believe in cutting the throats of women (or murdering them in other ways) who speak to men outside their cultural group or who demonstrate some independence. I will neither respect nor tolerate such barbarism, and I would intervene without hesitation were I to witness such a thing if there were not a policeman conveniently situated to handle the matter. They can dress as they please, speak whatever language they choose and, as far as I am concerned, even reject the public school system and follow their own preferences for education, and I'll respect all that. But there are some limits of human rights and decency which apply universally regardless of how many degenerates (from anywhere in the world) violate them. Or would you prefer a spicy dish of long pig, perhaps?
| | | | | Thanks everyone, locking the thread | Jan 8, 2009 |
Hello all,
I'd like to thank Laureana for posting this; as the original topic seems to have been discussed and we are now veering off-topic, I'll go ahead and lock this thread.
I'd also like to emphasize Natalie's post at http://www.proz.com/post/1026778#1026778 . The fastest way of reporting a job you feel does not belong on the site or violates site rules is by contact... See more Hello all,
I'd like to thank Laureana for posting this; as the original topic seems to have been discussed and we are now veering off-topic, I'll go ahead and lock this thread.
I'd also like to emphasize Natalie's post at http://www.proz.com/post/1026778#1026778 . The fastest way of reporting a job you feel does not belong on the site or violates site rules is by contacting a jobs moderator or via support request.
Best regards,
Jared ▲ Collapse
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