Penelope Ausejo Spain Local time: 06:38 Member (2004) English to Spanish + ...
A bad place for outsourcing
Oct 21, 2009
Ralf Lemster wrote:
Paola Dentifrigi wrote:
I guess the problem affects also quality agencies, which will find it harder and harder to outsource through Proz.
Quite right - I have practically given up outsourcing through ProZ.com, with very few exceptions.
Ralf
Outsourcing: Proz used to be a good place to find high-quality translators, but definitely not anymore... Hopefully, someone will take advantage of this weakness and create a new portal for high-quality translators and good agencies that are willing to pay for their services. If it already exists or if someone sets it up, I will outsource there, in the meantime... I just hope I am able to find some of those top-notch translators that value their time and their work. If someone knows how to find them, I’d really welcome their input.
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Penelope Ausejo wrote:
Outsourcing: Proz used to be a good place to find high-quality translators, but definitely not anymore... Hopefully, someone will take advantage of this weakness and create a new portal for high-quality translators and good agencies that are willing to pay for their services. If it already exists or if someone sets it up, I will outsource there, in the meantime... I just hope I am able to find some of those top-notch translators that value their time and their work. If someone knows how to find them, I’d really welcome their input.
Haven't read the thread yet, but responding just to this post, which was brought to my attention...
Penelope, thanks for your membership. I see you have good Blue Board entries... so I guess there are some people at ProZ.com with whom you can work.
Is it possible that what you mean is that there are no longer good translators who work at a certain rates? I have heard that complaint before... one company owner expressed frustration to me that once people join ProZ.com they get more work and then raise their prices...
Certainly, if you don't think there are good translators here, without regard to price, there is something wrong with the way you are looking. There are many people here whose skills no one can question. And you, too, are a member here!
Maybe you could be more precise? What do you mean that "Proz used to be a good place to find high-quality translators, but definitely not anymore..."
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xxxEric Hahn France Local time: 06:38 French to German + ...
A bad place for incourcing, too
Oct 21, 2009
Penelope Ausejo wrote:
Outsourcing: Proz used to be a good place to find high-quality translators, but definitely not anymore... Hopefully, someone will take advantage of this weakness and create a new portal for high-quality translators and good agencies that are willing to pay for their services.
High-quality translators won't waste their time. So, let's resume :
There are too much bad agencies and too much bad translators
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Astrid Elke Johnson Germany Local time: 06:38 Member (2002) German to English + ...
Slight correction of an assumption
Oct 21, 2009
Peter Moor wrote:
We complete work on time, we communicate well with the client, we double/triple check our work, we are RELIABLE. Result? After a while we will only have to compete for some side work -if at all- to fill up our schedule.
Ahem, Peter! This is not the inevitable result for all translators, in all types of economy, at all times.
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Penelope Ausejo Spain Local time: 06:38 Member (2004) English to Spanish + ...
Clarification
Oct 21, 2009
Before, when I used to post jobs through Proz, I would get bids from all types of translators; good, normal and not so good ones. Nowadays, most of the bids I receive are from non-professional translators that charge peanuts and have to bid to any job within their language combination in order to make ends meet (or so it seems) even they are not specialized in the field of the job. The result is that I cannot find professionals (using the job board) and thus I cannot meet the requirements of my clients.
I have said “most of the bids”. Of course I still find a few good ones, but less and less every day. I believe the problem is that those top-notch translators (that charge accordingly a high rate) do not trust the job board anymore. So, if we cannot find good translators that do a professional job and charge a professional rate (yes… high rate), what’s the point of Proz? To me, it seems that the goal is to have a portal where low paying agencies and translators with rock bottom rates can do businesses.
I'm not sure if I have explained myself correctly...
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Jeff Whittaker United States Local time: 00:38 Member (2002) Spanish to English + ...
An old suggestion
Oct 21, 2009
Penelope,
Many, many moons ago, I wrote a post and suggested that outsourcers be able to pre-select a group of translators by clicking on their name in the directory, the forums or their individual profiles. These could be translators you have worked with before, translators you have tested, translators you have heard about, translators recommended by someone else, translators you have come to know through the forums here, or simply translators with interesting qualifications.
Then, when you need to post a job, it would first go out to those translators on your pre-selected list (who work in the desired language pair (and possibly subject-area) of course). A filter could also be added to only send out the notice to translators who are available according to their availability calendar (with the understanding that some people do not use this feature).
In other words, this would simply be a quick way to find out if any of "your" translators are available and willing to work on your project, rather than looking for qualified translators after you accept a job from a client. If none of your "favorites" are available, the job can be moved to the general job board.
Of course, you could also delete translators who fail to impress and they could also decide not to receive job notices from you as well. For example, if a low-paying outsourcer contacted me (through a ProZ system) asking to add me to their preferred translator list, I could reject this request and the only job notices I would receive would be from "my" preferred outsourcers as well.
Would this be of any use to you?
Penelope Ausejo wrote:
The result is that I cannot find professionals (using the job board) and thus I cannot meet the requirements of my clients.
[Edited at 2009-10-21 23:24 GMT]
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Ralf Lemster Germany Local time: 06:38 Member (2003) English to German + ...
Pre-selection is technically possible via Connect
Oct 21, 2009
Hi Jeff,
Many, many moons ago, I wrote a post and suggested that outsourcers be able to pre-select a group of translators by clicking on their name in the directory, the forums or their individual profiles. These could be translators you have worked with before, translators you have tested, translators you have heard about, translators recommended by someone else, translators you have come to know through the forums here, or simply translators with interesting qualifications.
Then, when you need to post a job, it would first go out to those translators on your pre-selected list (who work in the desired language pair (and possibly subject-area) of course). A filter could also be added to only send out the notice to translators who are available according to their availability calendar (with the understanding that some people do not use this feature).
Not 100% with the filters and re-routing options you describe, but Connect allows you to build a vendor list, which you can use to post assignments. Trouble is - at least from my perception - that the "Connect" brand was diluted beyond recognition by opening it up to anyone.
Best,
Ralf
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Robert Forstag United States Local time: 00:38 Member (2003) Spanish to English + ...
TOPIC STARTER
A disappointing staff response
Oct 21, 2009
Ralf Lemester said, in response to point 3 of Jared's response to this thread:
Sorry, but this is ludicrous - and I really hope less experienced colleagues will not take your word for it. First, calling 3,500 entries (many of which are probably outdated) "current" doesn't hold any ground. Second, we discussed a more detailed breakdown of pricing data several years ago - still, all I'm seeing is an overall average (at least the EUR/USD exchange rate appears to be approximately right).
*****
I could not agree more. The diluted and incomplete nature of the information on the Blue Board is in fact one of the issues that prompted this discussion in the first place, and suggestions for making the BB more useful featured prominently within the present thread.
So I would have to call the response very "unresponsive" to the concerns that were raised in the present discussion. This is disappointing.
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bmurphy United Kingdom Local time: 05:38 Member (2009) Spanish to English + ...
We need to rate job posters
Oct 21, 2009
There needs to be a more robust system of naming and shaming people who are posting jobs on poverty wages.
In the last few days I received a job offer, through this site, at 10 USD per 1000 words. I don't think this person should be allowed to get away with that type of unethical and exploitative behaviour, it's an abuse of the site. I replied to the person quite politely, but part of me wishes I could tell them where to go, publicly, through this site, with more colourful four-letter words. 10$ per 1000 words? Hell, why not 5$?
If I could name this person right now I would do it, but it would get me barred from the site. I appeal to the owners of this site to abandon their laissez-faire attitude of supply and demand and get a bit more sophisticated - let's have some quality control instruments introduced.
What kind of translation expertise will be provided for 10 USD per 100 words? This dutch auction is not only bad for translators, it's bad for clients. Anyone who is a good translator is not going to work for these poverty wages - frankly I'd rather work for Pizza Hut and get some decent tips. It's not only bad for wage rates, it's ruinous for standards.
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bmurphy United Kingdom Local time: 05:38 Member (2009) Spanish to English + ...
Sorry Robert - you got there first
Oct 21, 2009
Sorry, Robert Forstag, I really repeated what you said in your first post on this blog. I agree with your initial proposal fully.
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Eleftherios Kritikakis United States Local time: 23:38 Member (2003) Greek to English + ...
Nonsense
Oct 22, 2009
"Get used to competing and to being outbid. Bummer."
Tell that to the companies that the governments are bailing out with tax-payer money because they do not want to compete.
Two things:
a) Banks are lobbying. Insurance companies are lobbying. The gold market is lobbying. Everyone seems to be lobbying or make relavant efforts. Why shouldn't we do something similar, instead of just saying things such as "the free market" and so on...
b) There was NEVER a free market in any place on this planet. Even in the United States, under its most "free market friendly" administration (Reagan), there was NO free market: it was a sell-off to the lobbies of Wall Street and other powerful groups (see Enron case), while the "small guys" were continuously hit with increased local regulations and local taxes.
No wonder all industry migrated to other countries, not always cheaper, and no wonder all smaller companies closed down to be replaced by Walmart and other giants with powerful lobbies behind them. "Free market"? I don't think so.
I didn't spend 14 years at the edge of capitalism (insurance - financial products) in two continents to end up reading nonsense about "free markets".
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Eleftherios Kritikakis United States Local time: 23:38 Member (2003) Greek to English + ...
The "global" marketplace and price hunting back-fires
Oct 22, 2009
Is this a market place that gives opportunity to a person from Egypt to raise her rates and utilize the higher prices of other countries, OR is it a place where the outsourcer thinks "I'll hire someone from Egypt because they' re dirt cheap down there".
What sort of equal opportunity global marketplace is this, if the outsourcers are not doing anything more than they were doing before, that is, to exploit people in developing countries as "cheap labor"?
Is proz.com then just another tool of outsourcers to establish "fancy" sweatshops?
If we were really in a "global" marketplace, such a practice would be illegal as "price discrimination" (that is, to offer two different prices to two different translators, based on where they live) - and borderline ethnic racism ("Egyptians deserve less than the Americans").
How could this be corrected? I proposed in the past to avoid posting the physical address of members on the site. There is no need for it. Since our workplace is the Internet (and our email), there's no reason.
Unless someone tells me "I lowered my prices because I'm on a three week trip in Montana".
Two things that happened after proz and other similar sites:
i) End clients and agencies started focusing much more on prices than on quality.
ii) Translators started competing with each other to the point that they hate each other in some cases (they used to be best friends once).
Price hunting backfires. Let's see what the Eurozone translation agencies will do if the Euro hits $1.80 (let's hope it doesn't). They were shifting the focus of their clients to "prices" - and now the clients can't see anything else.
We made the market blind to Translation, with eyes only on "price".
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Before, when I used to post jobs through Proz, I would get bids from all types of translators; good, normal and not so good ones. Nowadays, most of the bids I receive are from non-professional translators that charge peanuts and have to bid to any job within their language combination in order to make ends meet (or so it seems) even they are not specialized in the field of the job. The result is that I cannot find professionals (using the job board) and thus I cannot meet the requirements of my clients.
I have said “most of the bids”. Of course I still find a few good ones, but less and less every day. I believe the problem is that those top-notch translators (that charge accordingly a high rate) do not trust the job board anymore. So, if we cannot find good translators that do a professional job and charge a professional rate (yes… high rate), what’s the point of Proz? To me, it seems that the goal is to have a portal where low paying agencies and translators with rock bottom rates can do businesses.
I'm not sure if I have explained myself correctly...
Thanks for the clarification. Do you ever use the directory, instead of posting jobs? This is the more common means of finding translators.
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I often get the impression that translators actually quote higher rates to "great agencies" (whatever the definition), assuming that those will be able to afford them. When out of a job, these same translators will quote a slightly lower price for a "good" agency. Not talking about the really low-paying agencies here, but the ones that are competing in the higher segment of the market.
A scenario:
Agency A: clear instructions, prepped files, realistic deadlines, weekend rush rates, jobs in your field, great complaint handling, feedback, all the works. You quote for 50 cents/w and get it. Steady relationship there.
Agency B: doable enough, an OCR now and then, and no rush rates, but in general a client you welcome in your inbox anyway. You quoted 40 cents/w, and that's what you get.
On average, you'll probably spend more time on the projects for client B. But hey, can't have all As, can you? It all works, so, all is fine.
Now, an end client sends a request for quote to agencies A and B. Your name is written all over the job, so both agencies will quote with you in mind. Guess who is likely to win the bid? And guess what rate you will get?
2) Job postings:
Pretty much every day you see a job posting in language combination A-B with the title "A-B", rather than something slightly more informative. I take care to put up a decent job posting, and sometimes I feel pretty stupid seeing how others approach the job board (especially if I recognise a job I failed to get when quoting, because the client opted for a lower bid).
There is already a warning I think along the lines of "give a short description, not just the language combination" but clearly that doesn't help much. It should be possible to draw up some minimum requirements there that would be equally valuable in India as in Germany. Either make it possible to rate a job post according to those criteria (based on yes/no questions please, no value judgements), or require outsourcers to tick a list of what they included in their posting.
Doesn't help in the price war I guess, but it might be an improvement and it might help to give the site the image of a place where professionals meet.
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Steffen Walter Germany Local time: 06:38 Member (2002) English to German + ...
Good thinking, Susan
Oct 22, 2009
I fully agree with the points you've made from an outsourcer's perspective. Regarding the following, however, I tend to believe...
Susan van den Ende wrote:
Doesn't help in the price war I guess, but it might be an improvement and it might help to give the site the image of a place where professionals meet.
... that it probably does, in a way - albeit indirectly, as outsourcers submitting pretty non-descript postings are usually also at the low(est) end of the price range. Might help raise their awareness (even if only a bit) so that they'll begin behaving like humans and realise that there are people at the other end, too.
Steffen
[Edited at 2009-10-22 07:56 GMT]
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