No-payment 2 cases
Thread poster: aivars

aivars  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 19:57
English to Spanish
+ ...
Dec 17, 2003

I was told that I can resort to one of the Moderators in the Jobs Forum to submit cases of non-payments from bids that appeared in Proz.
The reason why I am a bit upset is that these bad debtors are currently using Proz's system to cheat colleagues.
I am not allowed to give technicals in the Forums, [but in Blue Board, I know]
However, it seems that in this point the system works better for the con men than for the translators.
I have some mails to support two cases of non-payment [different agencies]. They told me that this way the bad debtor cannot go on using the Proz system.
I have already posted in the Blue Board, but that seems to be not enough.

[Edited at 2003-12-18 01:09]


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 00:57
English to German
+ ...
Contact a Jobs Area coordinator Dec 17, 2003

Hi aivars,
First of all, I would like to remind you that anyone entering into a business relationship online is responsible to ascertain the identity and reliability of the business partner, and to take steps to protect oneself. ProZ.com can provide measures to support, but neither the site nor its moderators will assume any responsibility, commercial or otherwise.

I was told that I can resort to one of the Moderators in the Jobs to submit cases of non-payments from bids that appeared in Proz.

Giuliana Buscaglione and myself act as Jobs Area coordinators - please contact us privately with any details.

The reason why I am bit upset is that these bad debtors are currently using Proz's system to cheat colleagues.
I am not allowed to give technicals in the Forums, [but in Blue Board, I know]
However, it seems that in this point the system works better for the con men than for the translators.

Sorry, but I don't get your point here.

There's a good reason why discussing these issues in the forums is prohibited: anyone could post a libellous comment without having to submit evidence - this could result in legal problems for ProZ.com and the poster.

I have some mails to support two cases of non-payment [different agencies]. They told me that this way the bad debtor cannot go on using the Proz system.

Who are "they"?
Details regarding procedures are set out in the Termination Policy


I have already posted in the Blue Board, but that seems to be not enough.

Posting on the BB is important, and provides valuable information. However, given that you don't have to substantiate (or provide evidence for) comments posted there, you will appreciate that ProZ.com cannot take action simply on the basis of ratings or comments on the Blue Board. Quite simply, non-payment may be the result of a fraudulent outsourcer - or by non-delivery of the translator.

That is why, when we receive a specific complaint (or if we spot a concentration of ratings citing non-payment), we ask for confirmation that

- the person worked for the outsourcer in question;
- work was delivered on time, and in accordance with job specifications;
- an invoice was issued; and
- no payment was received.

As soon as we have received a minimum of two independent confirmations, we will challenge the outsourcer, requesting a statement. Sadly, the most frequent result of this process (which we have carried out a number of times) has been the banning of outsourcers. However, we have also seen cases where our intervention led to some, sometimes all of the translators being paid.

Summary: don't get upset - get us the details. Privately. Thanks.

Best regards, Ralf


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aivars  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 19:57
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks for the fast reply Ralph Dec 17, 2003

I deem you as one of the most competent moderators around. I have a collection of mails from 2 no payment cases, but I cannot send those attached mails through your Proz mail. [I need a mail address where I can do that]

I know that I'm responsible for starting business with anyone, even here, my main point is to support evidence against two agencies [that "everybody knows"] are bad payers [You won't be surprised when you see the names]. I was not aware of the intrincacies of online business at the beginning.

Talking about responsibility, I also think it's my responsibility to warn others that these people are using the Proz system as if nothing had happened [Is this point still obscure?].

For them it's easier to get 65 bids [even when they pile up bad reports on the BB] than for me to warn about them. Let alone collect our pending invoices.

"They" is the Spanish moderators who suggested that I resort to this forum.

It's not only about the money, it's also that I find it hard to swallow that they laugh at our faces NOW. I just want to collaborate with my own no payment cases so that accomplished crooks DON'T POST IN PROZ until they pay their dues.

[Edited at 2003-12-18 04:39]


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Valeria Verona  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 19:57
Member (2003)
English to Spanish
+ ...
Me too Dec 17, 2003

I also worked for one of the agencies Aivars is having problems with and I wouldn't like to see that Agency and his director post any more jobs around in ProZ!
I'm willing to supply more information privately.
Regards,
Valeria


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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 00:57
English to German
+ ...
Don't hesitate Dec 17, 2003

Hi Valeria,
I'm willing to supply more information privately.

I'll contact you with my e-mail address.

Best regards, Ralf


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aivars  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 19:57
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Excellent service from Proz Moderator Dec 19, 2003

This is to let the community know that Ralf Lemster solved already one of my cases and is taking swift action in relation to the other.

I thanked you privately Ralph, but also wanted that Proz managers know of the excellent service you provide to members.


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Narasimhan Raghavan  Identity Verified
Local time: 04:27
English to Tamil
+ ...
No surprise. Ralf is always good Dec 19, 2003

Once Ralf intervenes one can rest assured that sanity will soon prevail and passions get cooled, so that the posters can again start posting with calmness.
Regards,
N.Raghavan


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Roomy Naqvy  Identity Verified
India
Local time: 04:27
English to Hindi
+ ...
I agree Dec 19, 2003

Narasimhan Raghavan wrote:

Once Ralf intervenes one can rest assured that sanity will soon prevail and passions get cooled, so that the posters can again start posting with calmness.
Regards,
N.Raghavan


I agree with your perceptive comment about Ralf.:) KudoZ and KudoS:):)

Roomy


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ADSTRAD  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:57
English to French
+ ...
seems threats works Dec 20, 2003

I have also been in contact with Aivar about one of the agencies he is talking about and I rated this agency on Proz, sent an email to the person responsible and received almost instantly a phone call from the CEO of the company, who asked me to remove my posting. I refused until I would be paid, as I am pretty sure that this agency does not really exist (a ghost address for tax evasion) they promised I would get paid by the 6th of January, but would be glad to communicate my case as well so that Proz moderators are aware of this practice.

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Ralf Lemster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 00:57
English to German
+ ...
Threats do not work - information does Dec 20, 2003

I would like to stress that the ProZ.com Blue Board is not to be used for blackmail - this is true both ways, of course.

Please do not communicate any details in the forums, but please do contact the Jobs Area coordinators.

Best regards, Ralf


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aivars  Identity Verified
Argentina
Local time: 19:57
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
My 2 cases solved Jan 29, 2004

This is just to inform that the 2 no-payment cases that started this thread were solved favorably.

I want to thank Proz and his moderators for their help in these matters.

Do not understimate the power of belonging to the Proz community.


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